Question about V12 set slopes

[Yavianice]

Hi all,

 

I have been contemplating buying a V12 and V13 track set to add to my existing V11 track set, as I would love to have a third dimension for my trains. However, I am nervous buying one. Are trains able to comfortably run up these slopes, with and without traction tires? Does it wear down the engine faster of the trains because of the stress of going up and down hill (e.g. slipping wheels etc.)? Anything else I should know? My train collection mostly consists of Kato Shinkansen trains (ranging from 6 to 12 cars).

 

Thanks!

Edited December 31, 2016 by Yavianice

[katoftw]

The Kato basic incline piers are about 4% incline.  Your Shinkansens (both Kato and Tomix) will have instructions that come with them detailing max incline, minimum corner radius and length of consists.

 

From memory, most model makers like 4%.  You can buy an secondary pier set that have different piers allowing a 2% incline rise instead of 4%.

[Yavianice]

You can buy an secondary pier set that have different piers allowing a 2% incline rise instead of 4%.

 

Thanks! I didn't know this. I will get this set, too.

[1954G]

 

I have been contemplating buying a V12 and V13 track set to add to my existing V11 track set, as I would love to have a third dimension for my trains.

I own these three tracks sets, and the suggested layouts for V11+V12+V13 are all quite impressive in person.  Too many curves for my taste, though. I would have been happier skipping V12 and just buying the incline pier sets separately.

 

 

Are trains able to comfortably run up these slopes, with and without traction tires? Does it wear down the engine faster of the trains because of the stress of going up and down hill (e.g. slipping wheels etc.)?

 

Depends on the train.  Shorter (6-7 car) shinkansen or shinkansen with two motor cars do not have a problem with the V12 inclines.  But some of my 16-car single-motor trains like the Kato 700 series and M250 Super Rail Cargo cannot make it up the incline at all. Even my Micro Ace 200 series couldn't handle it, and it only had 12 cars.

[cteno4]

http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/image/10014940/20/1

 

It is 2%, takes 10 pieces of 248 to get all the way up.

 

2% is easy and clean for most all trains, 3% is the usual rule of thumb as max if you don't want trouble with some trains, 4% begins to push it for many trains.

 

We had a club member that did a bunch of different layouts with grades. He went up to 5+% at times and it was hard for many of his trains to make it around w/o running them very fast and then slipping some. In the end he did really ruin some motor cars by running too fast and hard for the extreme gradients. He was deaf so did not hear the grinding noise they were making. I cleaned a few out and they were full of heavy black grit which is a good sign things were eating themselves as his place was very clean and dust/grit free.

 

Jeff

[Yavianice]

Depends on the train.  Shorter (6-7 car) shinkansen or shinkansen with two motor cars do not have a problem with the V12 inclines.  But some of my 16-car single-motor trains like the Kato 700 series and M250 Super Rail Cargo cannot make it up the incline at all. Even my Micro Ace 200 series couldn't handle it, and it only had 12 cars.

Have you tried the 2% slope additions as mentioned by cteno4 and katoftw? Or do you have these issues only with the 4% incline?

 

Also, thanks everyone for your replies!

[1954G]

 

Have you tried the 2% slope additions as mentioned by cteno4 and katoftw? Or do you have these issues only with the 4% incline?

 

I don't own the 23-049 supplementary pier set yet, sorry.

 

 

He went up to 5+% at times and it was hard for many of his trains to make it around w/o running them very fast and then slipping some. In the end he did really ruin some motor cars by running too fast and hard for the extreme gradients.

 

The cautionary tale is much appreciated. I'll stick to 2% from now on.

[cteno4]

One of those things that you can test easily for yourself if you have the track, just cut up chinks of corrugated cardboard and stack them up to make some temp incline piers and run some trains. Worth finding out what you are comfortable with and enjoy with the balance of how much room you have to do grades with as that usually the big issue! Fred was fine running his trains on the steep grades and high speeds, we all have different ways we like to run our trains.

 

You can also make your own custom incline set by just using the full piers and just cutting the legs down as needed to make the grade you can fit in your space! Cheapo roto tool with a small cutting disc and done!

 

Jeff

[gerryo]

Don't forget the extra length you need for 10 pieces of track.  This adds up to just over 8 feet.

 

gerryo

[kvp]

A common trick is to avoid inclines in the track and move the surface level around. For smaller layouts, this would look more prototypical as most elevated tracks are there to keep the rails as level as possible. The other end of the prototype spectrum is the Tokyo-Ueno connecting roller coaster that makes the Kato up and down pier sets look prototypical.

Edited January 1, 2017 by kvp

[gavino200]

A common trick is to avoid inclines in the track and move the surface level around. For smaller layouts, this would look more prototypical as most elevated tracks are there to keep the rails as level as possible. The other end of the prototype spectrum is the Tokyo-Ueno connecting roller coaster that makes the Kato up and down pier sets look prototypical.

 

That's an intresting "trick". I think I might try that on a future layout. I'm having some incline growing pains. See below.

[gavino200]

I was going to post a question thread, but this thread is almost the same issue as mine. 

 

I recently bought and installed the Kato V12 (with some extra double viaduct) I used the Kato incline pier set and Kato incline addition set. Below is a picture of it set up.

 

http://www.jnsforum.com/community/gallery/image/3992-20170101-002430/

 

I don't know what the gradient is. Looks like less than 5 degrees. I love the set. For me (and my son) inclines and tunnels are a must. Shinkansen runs fine on this grade. Also, trains with multiple engines work great on it. 

 

I was however, upset that all my engines don't roar up the incline pulling long trains. I've been looking into traction tires as a solution. However, it just dawned on me that I don't really know if this is a problem. I don't really know what expectations I should have for engine performance on a gradient like this. I spoke to a guy at Kato about it. He wasn't too shocked. He wasn't at all surprized that my punier engines had trouble. He suggested that I do what real railroads do, and just add multiple engines.

 

I'm fine with doing that btw. I actually like how multiple engines look. 

 

What should I expect from this kind of incline? Is it normal that some engines, should have trouble pulling a load up this thing? Should I stop looking for a solution and just give the engines a few buddies to help with the load?

 

(The problem was much worse btw, before I cleaned all the engines, cars, and track.)

Edited January 1, 2017 by gavino200

[kvp]

The Kato basic incline set is 4% while the add on set gets it down to about 2%, while making the incline twice as long. 4% should be ok for trains with 3 trailers per motor unit and still possible with 7 trailers per motor unit. For a longer emu, like a 8 or 12 car set, one or two banking locomotives are required for inclines at 4% and i would suggest getting a few extra motor units if you intend to run without banking locomotives. For freights, it's quite common to have two pulling and one banking locomotives (or double bankers) for any longer freight trains. The Tokyo-Ueno coaster requires trains with at least 1 motor for ever 2 trailers in real life, just to be able to provide a usable service. Some 50% motored real life emu-s had to use 2 heavy banking locomotives on the Usui pass, just to get over the inclines.

 

Some basic rules of thumb:

-at most 4 passenger cars per motor unit on 4%

-at most 8 passenger cars per motor unit on 2%

-at most 8 freight cars per locomotive on 4%

-at most 16 freight cars per locomotive on 2%

-add a banker locomotive or extra motor car for every 4 to 8 extra passenger cars

-add a banker locomotive for every 8 extra general freight cars

-count heavy or long freight cars as passenger cars (aka. double)

-always count the number of powered axles, as an all wheel powered EH10 counts as a double locomotive, while a 6 axle one is usually worth one and a half unless some of the axles are unpowered, because that could actually decrease the traction power below of a 4 axle one

-and finally traction tires help increase the point of wheelslip, not the raw power available, so avoid overloading weaker motors with extra traction tires that they were not designed for

-some sets were not designed for high grades, this is true both for the prototypes and the models (the prototypes might lack traction power, while the models might lack extra motored add on sets)

[gavino200]

The Kato basic incline set is 4% while the add on set gets it down to about 2%, while making the incline twice as long. 4% should be ok for trains with 3 trailers per motor unit and still possible with 7 trailers per motor unit. For a longer emu, like a 8 or 12 car set, one or two banking locomotives are required for inclines at 4% and i would suggest getting a few extra motor units if you intend to run without banking locomotives. For freights, it's quite common to have two pulling and one banking locomotives (or double bankers) for any longer freight trains. The Tokyo-Ueno coaster requires trains with at least 1 motor for ever 2 trailers in real life, just to be able to provide a usable service. Some 50% motored real life emu-s had to use 2 heavy banking locomotives on the Usui pass, just to get over the inclines.

 

Some basic rules of thumb:

-at most 4 passenger cars per motor unit on 4%

-at most 8 passenger cars per motor unit on 2%

-at most 8 freight cars per locomotive on 4%

-at most 16 freight cars per locomotive on 2%

-add a banker locomotive or extra motor car for every 4 to 8 extra passenger cars

-add a banker locomotive for every 8 extra general freight cars

-count heavy or long freight cars as passenger cars (aka. double)

-always count the number of powered axles, as an all wheel powered EH10 counts as a double locomotive, while a 6 axle one is usually worth one and a half unless some of the axles are unpowered, because that could actually decrease the traction power below of a 4 axle one

-and finally traction tires help increase the point of wheelslip, not the raw power available, so avoid overloading weaker motors with extra traction tires that they were not designed for

-some sets were not designed for high grades, this is true both for the prototypes and the models (the prototypes might lack traction power, while the models might lack extra motored add on sets)

 

Thanks for taking the time to explain this so thoroughly! 

[Yavianice]

Thanks for all your replies. I have received the V12 set, and tried running my E3-E6-E7 (all full trains, all independently, all KATO) sets on it. The E7 (12-set) can manage it at 'full power', but the E3/E6 trains just barely make it. I ordered the 23-049 supplement pier set, which I have discovered is not meant to be used to double the length of the slope at all, but rather, it is meant to be placed halfway the 248 mm tracks (i.e. between the piers of the V12 set/base set). Because of this, the 23-049 pier set is the only double pier set that KATO makes that DOES NOT come with the catenary pole holder pieces. Furthermore, because the starter piece of the slope is at a fixed angle, and the first pier included in the 23-049 set comes after the first pier of the base set, the first part will still be the original slope gradient.

 

That the 23-049 set does not come with catenary pole holder pieces is very annoying, as the European KATO importer does not sell them independently, so you are left with piers that do not have catenary pole holders. After some fiddling with my layout, I managed to place my V11/V12/V13/V14 sets in such a way I can accommodate a 'double length' slope, and I will report back here with some test results as to what does/does not run on this extended slope (as I am currently waiting for some extra pieces before I can complete the slope).

Edited January 7, 2017 by Yavianice

[gavino200]

Thanks for all your replies. I have received the V12 set, and tried running my E3-E6-E7 (all full trains, all independently, all KATO) sets on it. The E7 (12-set) can manage it at 'full power', but the E3/E6 trains just barely make it. I ordered the 23-049 supplement pier set, which I have discovered is not meant to be used to double the length of the slope at all, but rather, it is meant to be placed halfway the 248 mm tracks (i.e. between the piers of the V12 set/base set). Because of this, the 23-049 pier set is the only double pier set that KATO makes that DOES NOT come with the catenary pole holder pieces. Furthermore, because the starter piece of the slope is at a fixed angle, and the first pier included in the 23-049 set comes after the first pier of the base set, the first part will still be the original slope gradient.

 

That the 23-049 set does not come with catenary pole holder pieces is very annoying, as the European KATO importer does not sell them independently, so you are left with piers that do not have catenary pole holders. After some fiddling with my layout, I managed to place my V11/V12/V13/V14 sets in such a way I can accommodate a 'double length' slope, and I will report back here with some test results as to what does/does not run on this extended slope (as I am currently waiting for some extra pieces before I can complete the slope).

 

 

It will work. I did exactly this. I used the the expander/stabilizer kit to reduce the gradient by putting one pier per joint. Trains that struggle with the steep slope do fine with the lower gradient.

 

Yes the first pier is at the steeper angle. This doesn't cause any problems if you file the sharp edges of the rails at the first track joint (VERY SLIGHTLY). 

 

I got six extra piers from the concrete pier set 23-019. They are the within the walls type, that support the old-type narrow catenary. 

[Yavianice]

I got the 23-049 additional slope pier set and the 23-019 like you.

 

For future reference, the setup is as follows: Fixed Slope - A1 - B1 - A2 - B2 - A3 - B3 - A4 - B4 - B4,5 - 5, and in between each of the piers a 248 mm long bridge. Instead of using the inner catenary bases, I got 2 extra Double Track Truss bridges to compensate for the lack of catenary bases.

 

All my trains, including the ones without traction tires (E6/E3) go up the slope butter smooth, even at slower speeds.

 

I did not have to file the edges actually, there is no noticeable difference in the angle of the track and I do not get any derailments. 

 

Thanks everyone for the replies and the help!