Toden streetcars

[hans-diesel]

Hello all,

 

I see that the Toden streetcars are specified as having 2 x 60 kW power. I asume that is 60 kW per bogie, right? Are both axles powered?

 

With kind regards, Hans

 

p.s. I don't know if this is the right platform to ask

[bill937ca]

I would presume so, otherwise these cars would be greatly under powered.  Buts its hard to tell without the appropriate copy of Japan Railfan Magazine.

[miyakoji]

its hard to tell without the appropriate copy of Japan Railfan Magazine.

 

I run into this problem all the time

[kvp]

2x60 kW per car. The older 6000 series started with 52x2.

 

I don't know the exact configuration, but 1A-A1, A1-1A, B-B (with cardan shafts) and Bo-2 were all popular configurations for 4 axle trams in Japan.

[bill937ca]

This  is interesting.  I can't find any mention of the number of motors in any of my Japanese tram books.  Generally a two motor tram is considered grossly  under powered.  Four motors is the standard. I won't trust Wikipedia because it was likely prepared by someone who doesn't really know trams even if they know trains. With two motors per car if one motor dies, you limp back to the depot on one motor. With four motors if one motor dies, you still have a truck with two motors. There's not much info on new trams in my Japan Railfan Magazine issues.

Edited August 2, 2016 by bill937ca

[Nick_Burman]

 Four motors is the standard.

 

Bill,

 

Not true, there were quite a good number of 2-truck, 2-motor cars out there. Especially those fitted with so-called "maximum traction" trucks.

 

Before the arrival of the LRVs in Lisbon the "flatland" lines along the coast were operated with a fleet of Brill- and CCFL-built 2-truckers fitted with maximum-traction trucks. Yes, they struggled a bit to get moving, but they lasted long enough to be replaced by articulated light rail cars.

 

Rome had a large series of Bo-2 cars which ran until a few years ago.

 

In Japan even some railways used motor cars with one motor per truck - especially those railways which were electrified at 550/600/750V DC. Think Meitetsu 520s...

 

Cheers NB

[kvp]

Some of the newer Tokyo metro cars also have one powered axle on each bogie. But a very common trick, especially with body mounted motors is to drive the inner axle with a cardan shaft and the outer through a smaller cardan shaft. This results in a B-B configuration.

 

The alternative is a motor suspended between the bogie axles and driving both through two flexibly mounted gear sets on each side, this is the most compact arrangement with conventional motors.

 

The oldest single motor cars i know of were the Siemens prototypes used in Wien and Budapest with a centrally mounted motor driving both axles through chains.

[bill937ca]

Bill,

 

Before the arrival of the LRVs in Lisbon the "flatland" lines along the coast were operated with a fleet of Brill- and CCFL-built 2-truckers fitted with maximum-traction trucks. Yes, they struggled a bit to get moving, but they lasted long enough to be replaced by articulated light rail cars.

 

Cheers NB

 

Only the first series of Lisbon bogie cars 323-342 and the bare workmen's cars 363-367 had Maximum traction trucks. The John Stephenson cars 343-362 had four motors as did 801-805, 806-810 and 901-910.  Source: The Tramways of Portugal.

[marknewton]

This  is interesting.  I can't find any mention of the number of motors in any of my Japanese tram books.  Generally a two motor tram is considered grossly  under powered.  Four motors is the standard.

I'm not sure that holds true in Japan. Our Nagasaki car only has two motors powering two axles, and even before it was sold by Sendai and regauged it was a 2-motor car.

 

I have a book somewhere at home that gives detailed specs for the Toden cars, when I get home in the morning I'll have a look and see what it says.

 

Cheers,

 

Mark

[kvp]

I've found a picture from Nagasaki with a single powered axle bogie that has a nose suspended motor:

http://portal.nifty.com/2012/12/07/b/img/pc/010.jpg

(http://portal.nifty.com/kiji/121207158656_1.htm)

 

and from Hiroshima, with a similar bogie:

http://homepage2.nifty.com/f-pageh/hiro/den2/d2106.jpg

(http://homepage2.nifty.com/f-pageh/hiro/den2/d-maturi.html)

 

and Hakodate:

http://www13.atpages.jp/yps17/shiden/kozo/dai_meisyo.jpg

(http://www13.atpages.jp/yps17/shiden/kozo/kozo.html)

 

and sadly noting from Tokyo...

Edited August 3, 2016 by kvp

[Nick_Burman]

Only the first series of Lisbon bogie cars 323-342 and the bare workmen's cars 363-367 had Maximum traction trucks. The John Stephenson cars 343-362 had four motors as did 801-805, 806-810 and 901-910.  Source: The Tramways of Portugal.

 Sure, but my tenderest memories (age 8!) are of "those trams with the strange trucks" struggling, wheels slipping, to get underway along Rua da Prata...

 

Cheers NB

[Nick_Burman]

I'm not sure that holds true in Japan. Our Nagasaki car only has two motors powering two axles, and even before it was sold by Sendai and regauged it was a 2-motor car.

 

I have a book somewhere at home that gives detailed specs for the Toden cars, when I get home in the morning I'll have a look and see what it says.

 

Cheers,

 

Mark

 

Mark, Meitetsu 520's...

 

Cheers

[hans-diesel]

Already thanks for all the responses and info.

 

In the mean time i have found out that the Toden 7500 has a (1A)(A1) wheel arrangment. Together with the knowledge of it having 2 motors, it is clear for this tram.

I expect that the older Toden trams will have the same arrangement.

From the Toden 8500 (1990) onwards all have a FS91 truck. I expect them all to have the same arrangement, but which?

 

And at least some Hankai Tramway trams have 4 pieces of 30 kW motors, and being 4 axle trams, I expect 1 motor for each axle.

 

Hans

Edited August 3, 2016 by hans-diesel

[kvp]

Like this?

http://rail.hobidas.com/bogie/FS91B.jpg

http://rail.hobidas.com/bogie/sp/archives/2007/03/9000.html

Edited August 3, 2016 by kvp

[hans-diesel]

Yes, I have seen that, nice website. Unfortunately I never find anything about the motors and the connection from motor to the axles on that site. But for other knowledge about trucks, it is where I look first.

 

Hans

[kvp]

Actually the picture has a text saying something along the lines of a visible motor mounting point. That probably means the suspension points of the nose suspended motor the vehicle description talks about. It's not clearly visible if it's a single or double motored bogie, but the transmission mech is present. Possible solutions are A1-1A or 1A-A1 with 2 motors per car.

 

ps: the low amount of motors could be caused by the lack of trailers or the reason of having no trailers, but there seems to be no reason to run anything but single car service...

[bill937ca]

 Sure, but my tenderest memories (age 8!) are of "those trams with the strange trucks" struggling, wheels slipping, to get underway along Rua da Prata...

 

Cheers NB

 

Well then NIck, this may interest you. Its circa 1990 and narration is in German.

 

Edited August 7, 2016 by bill937ca