Kato Point derail - advice ?

[Cen]

A while back I posted a request for help when I botched a decoder install in a Kato n700 bullet train. Despite the best efforts of CaptOblivious I couldn't figure it out and ended up sending it to Digitrains to do the job at the same time as they installed decoders into two old Graham Farish locos. Lo and behold, it came back working.

 

So, after a few months of buying track and actually building a baseboard, it was time to assemble. The track plan we used is here

 

http://www.kato-unitrack.co.uk/images/Kato_Track/layout_303.jpg

 

The intention is to build it as planned, which seems to be a somewhat out-of-town minor station stop. This particular one received planning approval from my five year old son as it has water, tunnels, roads and trains 

 

After a couple of hours with the help (ahem) of my son, we had the outer loops done :

 

http://imgur.com/ILXip.jpg

 

 

Before I added the sidings I figured it would be a good idea to run a few test trains. Here's where the problems started. Our locos are :

 

1. N700 bullet train. very light, long train. The track plan has curves that aren't strictly within operational tolerance for the N700. It makes it round the outer loop but smacks it's nose on the bridge every time. This was fixed with adding a small straight piece of viaduct before the bridge.

 

2. Graham Farish flying scotsman. Old, heavy, short and fairly particular about where it runs. Where the inner loop begins it's climb, the scotsman gets stuck, so we'll have to do something about that.

 

3. Some small atlas DCC loco that I bought whilst waiting for the others to come back from dcc work just to play with DCC. This is very new and should run anywhere.

 

 

Now if you just run them in circles, they tend to be ok. As soon as you start switching the points, they derail. All of them. It doesn't seem to be all of the points, but the layout has two left-hand points and one right-hand as part of the loops that seem to derail 100% of trains 100% of the time. It's hugely annoying. The points are all Kato #4 brand new out of the pack.

 

The trains hit the point (any speed, slow/fast/medium) and appear to take the curve, but then derail as they get halfway across the point.

 

So, can anyone shed any light on this ? I'm going to talk to the guys at  modeljunction where I bought all this track and see if they can help, but is there anything I can check/change without messing up the points ? I googled it up and it seems others have come across this in the past but there isn't a specific answer. Someone appears to have attacked theirs with a dremel tool to fix it which is worrying.

 

Cheers,

  Cen.

[disturbman]

Usually it helps a lot to put a straight between a point and a curve. :)

[Cen]

Thanks for the response. I did wonder about that - but it's an 'official' Kato track plan, so I thought they'd have verified it works.

 

Still I had some spare short straights (S62 very short), and added one before each point just in case (bottom right corner of the plan). It makes no difference, they derail every time.

 

Cheers,

  Cen.

[disturbman]

Then you shoudl try to swap some the problematic points with other ones and see what happens.

 

If the train still derails again at the same place then there is a problem with the track plan and a longer straight should resolve that.

If the train still derails again with the old points then there is a problem with the points.

If the train doesn't derail anywhere then you have resolved your problem. 

[Bernard]

Cen - the spiral you have is too tight for the n700, lets try opening it up. On the diagram, I'm showing you to turn the curve piece outward and add straight track then return it to the portion of the spiral that remains. You basically giving the train a straight route before the curve.

 

Also can you lower the incline and have enough room for trains to pass under? A too steep raise can cause problems for trains going up a grade.

[Mudkip Orange]

Yeah, more than a couple of the "official" Kato track plans contain curves that are too tight for Shinkansen. The corners of my E531 just barely avoid rubbing on an R315, so I tend to use that as a "minimum."

[CaptOblivious]

Silly question: Do you have the point motors installed (the electromagnets)? I don't know if they're removable in the Kato points, but in the Tomix points, they certainly are, and if they are not in, the points will not switch firmly from one side to the other, but will tend to "float", leading to lots of derails.

 

Just a thought.

[Concept Model Trains]

That plan uses #4 Unitrack points which I have found to cause derailments.  Make sure the point and the track is  sitting flat.  Avoid any wires under the track.  #6 points don't seem to don't seem to have this problem.

[Cen]

Ok,

 I took out all the points, put a long straight on each connector, added the power and ran each train across it multiple times to see what happened. Points were hand switched.

 

FS- forward straight

BS - back straight

FC - forward curve

BC - back curve

 

                       FS    BS   FC    BC

Point 1 – Diesel Ok Ok Ok Ok

Point 1 – Scots Ok Ok Ok Ok

Point 1 – Bullet Ok Ok Ok Ok

Point 2 – Diesel Ok Ok Ok Ok

Point 2 – Scots Ok Ok Ok Ok

Point 2 – Bullet Ok Ok Ok Ok

Point 3 – Diesel Ok Ok Ok Ok

Point 3 – Scots Ok Ok Fail

Point 3 – Bullet Ok Ok Ok Ok

Point 4 – Diesel Ok Ok Fail

Point 4 – Scots Ok Ok Fail

Point 4 – Bullet Ok Ok Fail

Point 5 – Diesel Ok Ok Ok Ok

Point 5 – Scots Ok Ok Ok Ok

Point 5 – Bullet Ok Ok Ok Ok

Point 6 – Diesel Ok Ok Ok Ok

Point 6 – Scots Ok Ok Fail

Point 6 – Bullet Ok Ok Ok Ok

Point 7 – Diesel Ok Ok Ok Ok

Point 7 – Scots Ok Ok Fail

Point 7 – Bullet Ok Ok Fail

Point 8 – Diesel Ok Ok Fail

Point 8 – Scots Ok Ok Fail

Point 8 – Bullet Ok Ok Fail

 

So I appear to have 3 points that are just unwilling to work. I'll discuss with the supplier on Friday. Scotsman seems to show up tolerance issues on points and since it's the only one complaining I don't think that it's a point problem.

 

Bernard - I haven't tried running the full (just 4 car) N700 yet. But power car plus one end navigates round ok now that I added the straight prior to the bridge. I won't run the N700 on the inner loop as those curves are way too tight. I'm not sure about the incline, I think it's linked to the start of the viaduct track so not really flexible.

 

Capt - I'm manually switching at the moment, no wiring until I can get the track to behave. I don't think you can de-mount the motors on these, although there are screws to take the casing off.

 

 

Cheers,

 Cen.

[alpineaustralia]

The Kato #4 is a flimsy point and I also had different trains derailing on them. What I did to fix it was to run the derialing trains extremely slowly on the points to see how they were derialing. Sometimes the wheels where too close together along the axis (sometimes that they can be pushed in and out along the axis) and would catch on the "floating arm" on the point. With one point only, I got so pissed off with it, I ended up manually bending the "floating arm" until no train derailed on it any longer.  I d not necessarily advocate this but I was Pissed off.

[Bernard]

Cen - I am posting a very crude mock-up on a re-vision to your track plan to help with the problem with the tight curve. Hope this helps and you can see what I did.

[Mudkip Orange]

Cen - I am posting a very crude mock-up on a re-vision to your track plan to help with the problem with the tight curve. Hope this helps and you can see what I did.

 

SubwayHypes called, he wants his track plan back 

[Bernard]

Cen - I am posting a very crude mock-up on a re-vision to your track plan to help with the problem with the tight curve. Hope this helps and you can see what I did.

 

SubwayHypes called, he wants his track plan back 

 

Well, we know it works.

[cteno4]

Cen,

sorry you are having problems. #4 kato switches are problematic and can be finicky with some trains. they require some tuning to really run well with all trains. this is done by sharpening the points of the blade a tad and also putting a small notch in the track where the tip of the blade matches up to help make a smooth transition for the flange not to grab the point edge if pushed against it (usually due to the point leading into a curve near by or sometimes just as the point is just a tad out of adjustment).

here are some references for the tuning that should help

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/KatoUnitrack/files/
And read the file called "Kato #4 switches tuning.txt - need to join the group i think for access.

sorry wish they worked great out of the box, but they dont. we have had a small amount of problems with them (w/o doing any tuning) on the jrm layout only when we go through a series of the #4 switches in a row. i just try to use #6 points where ever i can and only use the #4s when i absolutely have to. others have had good luck with #4s and think they are fine.

cheers

jeff

Edited August 28, 2015 by cteno4

[Guest ___]

I cringe hearing the term Kato #4 switch. Jeff, we seem to have trouble quite a bit I recall with the N700 on the club layout? (or was it the 500 I'm thinking of? Inside S-curve is too tight)

[cteno4]

we dont use the #4s on the viaduct so they dont have problems with them there, they are used in the inner loop on the ground level where things are all pretty tight radius. not too much of a problem as we use smaller equipment and shorter trains there. still a few hickups when trying to back into the main station yard on the inner loop with some trains. its a nasty string of 3 #4s and goes then into a curve, so not a great set of conditions for the #4s. that being said the regular activity on the main line of the inner loop is fine through the #4s, only when backing into the yard/station area.

 

the kato n700 had a problem picking the #6 points on the outer viaduct. this was probably due to them coming right after the curves. in the new layout plan i have s186 between the curves and the points now to help this problem. not seen by many trains except all the time with the kato n700. made it pretty un-runnable. the tomix n700 never had those problems and ran smoothly over the turnouts.

 

tomix and kato 500s both run fine on our viaduct and get run for hours w/o problems.

 

cheers,

 

jeff

 

old jrm viaduct and inner loops:

[Mudkip Orange]

Is the Kato #4 really that bad? I would assume since Tomix's standard turnout is R541, Kato's #4 R481 would allow all trains as well.

 

Is the Tomix R541 just built better than the Kato #4?

[cteno4]

this has been a complaint for a long time on the unitrak group. some have problems all the time with them, others not many at all. others do a lot of tuning and get things running really well.

 

they made this turnout to operate as a spring switch (with no power routing) as well as a power routing switch, so probably too many things to do at once to try and do. also made for tight smaller layouts that would be using smaller equipment, not shinkansens or large steam...

 

cheers

 

jeff

[Guest ___]

I knew we had problems with something on the viaduct and thought it was the 700, but for some reason remember a problem with the 500's jumping track. I designed my layout specifically not to use the #4

[Bernard]

The #4 switch is not just a problem with Kato but Altas & Peco was well. It's a very tight switch and larger cars have trouble manuvering through it.

[Cen]

Thanks all. I wish I'd stuck with #6 points now. But the ability of the #4 to route power is very tempting for someone like me who wants 1 set of wires to the track if at all possible (I know this isn't really the 'right' thing to do, but I like the KISS philosophy).

 

Bernard - I tried the full 4 car n700 around the outer loop. The only place it gets stuck is the top left corner on the curves before the bridge - can I just replace the two curves ? The baseboard is 2 meters wide so I have some wiggle room.

 

I'm not keen on 'tuning' points (but thanks for the links cteno4). If the damn things don't work, they aren't fit for purpose and they should be replaced. The whole point of using Kato is to make this as simple as possible for someone who doesn't 'do' complicated. Thus far I've spent more time twiddling track than running trains which is stupid and annoying.

 

Cheers,

  Cen.

[Bernard]

Cen - Don't lose heart everything is fixable. You recently bought the #4 switches right? Can you get in touch with the retailer and explain the situation that you're having problems with them and see if he will exchange them for #6 switches. You have nothing to lose, good retailers don't want to lose customers especially one that might be buying more in the future.

[cteno4]

Cen,

 

the #6 points are also power routing. the #4s have the option of turning off the power routing so you can use them as a spring switch and run trains thru the point in reverse against the point direction and the flanges wont short out when it pushed the point blades out of the way (they then snap back due to the springs). so replacing with #6 switches will still give you the KISS wiring!

 

cheers,

 

jeff

[Cen]

Update :

 

Went to see Modeljunction - they took a look at it, and it appears that the pins in the points are too high, causing the wheel to jump and derail. I hadn't spotted this. I am not going to mess around trying to file them down, much as I would like to. They were very decent and offered to swap the #4 points for #6, assuming I can massage the layout to actually use them. The #6 has no pins visible, so in theory no chance to derail.

 

Now : the #4 have the power routing screws underneath, whereby you set the screws and power always goes both ways on the point regardless of where it's set. This works for me as it means one power entry point can be routed across the whole layout (assuming no loopbacks and I don't have any). When I had just an oval and a passing loop (passing loop set contained #6 points), the #6 appear to only direct power where the point is set which breaks the whole 'one set of wires' theory and would mean buying and finding space for more power entry track pieces.

 

Any thoughts/suggestions here ? I am really loathe to switch out the points but it seems I have little choice.

 

Cheers,

  Cen.

[serenityFan]

When I had just an oval and a passing loop (passing loop set contained #6 points), the #6 appear to only direct power where the point is set which breaks the whole 'one set of wires' theory and would mean buying and finding space for more power entry track pieces.

 

assuming you are running DCC then you do need extra power wires with #6 points.

thankfully with Kato Unitrack 24-818 Power Unijoiners, you don't really need power entry track pieces, just supply power anywhere you want on your existing layout.