Bullet Trains: why are they Taboo? Posted by Bernard in another forum

[SubwayHypes]

i love shinkansens but i have always been more attracted to commuter trains instead.

 

[EWS60008]

Nice unit, I quite like those Series 6100 myself and I wouldn't mind an N gauge version of this model . I assume there is a model available of that unit?

[SubwayHypes]

yes its being released by microace any day now, check hobby search.

 

i like the train because it kinda reminds me of old New York city subway cars.

 

1970s-80s trains in Japan had very classic designs.

[EWS60008]

Thanks for that, I will keep an eye on PlazaJapan as well .

[Guest Closed Account 1]

Warning: this topic has not been posted in for at least 120 days.

 

No replies in 120 days?

 

The fact that my 2 bullet trains became the main attraction at the past event was the only reason I got more than 4 hours of run time. 3 hours on the red line (outer main track).

 

My peers joked about each getting a bullet to gauge track straightness before nailing it down. I mean the contrast of the white Kato 800 against the ballast revealed every twist.  The track seemed to shimmy under the the nose of the cab car as it just hovered in place. I don't know, running full throttle on track that the traditional freight trains were falling off at slow speeds had to be another good reason.

 

Yeah, the new kid (me) is officially welcomed into the club.

[The_Ghan]

Hey Webskipper,

 

Your post prompted me to go and read that other thread.  Very interesting.  I think Tudor summed things up pretty well with regard to the reasons why he models American rails.  However, the exact same can be said for all of us.  I bet most of us have a prior connection with Japan of some sort.  Bullets, and I use the term loosely because (to me) bullet trains look like a bullet - ruling out the duckbills, are an era in modern rail.  They were the envy of the world and cutting edge technology - still are!!!  They have as much class as American steam [The_Ghan ducks to avoid a flying shoe] and are as important to Japan as rail is to Britain.  You need only spend a bit of time getting to know the 0 series, the DC-3 of bullet trains, to understand what I mean.

 

The problem I think us N scale Japanese modellers have is this: we appreciate the interest in other genres of rail but are disappointed that modellers just don't get it when it comes to bullets.  We need to learn that the arguement we're having is like an arguement with the wife .... there comes a point when you realise that you just can't win.

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

[Martijn Meerts]

What it looks like to me, after having been visiting this forum for quite a long time now, is that those modeling Japanese layouts tend to be more open minded than anyone else. Most of us don't buy form only 1 brand, or follow a certain standard, or stick to what's prototypical. Some of us run multiple countries on the same layout, some even have multiple scales of trains. While our main interest is Japanese trains, we appreciate other trains and trams as well.

 

A lot of people I know who started with Marklin won't consider any other brand, regardless of whether that other brand is actually better (Brawa and HAG for example make some excellent trains that run on the Marklin system). There are also Marklin fanatics who claim that anything without center studs has crappy running characteristics (needless to say, they don't like Z-scale or 1-scale ...)

 

Clubs as well tend to stick to 1 certain country and/or era. Obviously, the clubs in the Netherlands all want to model Dutch prototype. This works great as long as the layout is set up in the club house. Once they take it to some exhibition they layout just blends in with everything else. All layouts pretty much look the same. Of course, it's their layout, so the main thing is that they enjoy the layout, not the general public at exhibitions. What I don't like about the clubs here though, is that they're just not open to anything new whatsoever. Whenever I mention I do Japanese prototype, they immediately loose interest, and seem to think the models are inferior quality.

 

 

I do wonder though, if Railz Miniworld in Rotterdam will come through with their plans of making an N-scale Japanese layout. Right now they have a large Dutch H0 layout, and their site used to mentioned their future plans. Part of those plans was the Japanese N-scale layout. Last time I was there with my father, we had a private behind-the-scenes tour, and the guy doing the tour mentioned the Japanese layout as well. That could of course be interesting, because they have more than enough space to run 16-car shinkansen at full speed.

 

I've been thinking about contacting them about the Japanese layout, and see if maybe they'd like a volunteer to help out with planning and such. I also don't think they have a good idea of the whole special editions, production schedules, spare part availability etc. of the various brands.

[Guest ___]

I rememebr when my HO club here in town learned my new layout was going to not only be N-scale, but Japanese, it got a lot of weird reactions. Our president made the comment along the lines of, "So, you're going to be one of those odd ball international modelers?" To which I replied, "As opposed to the general public's view of any model railroaded being an oddball?"

[cteno4]

Aaron,

 

you should have quipped back that with more japanese n scale modelers in the world than any other kind he was the oddball and you were just following the crowd!

 

i do think its a bit of tolerance. i love seeing all sorts of layouts and enjoy them all. its all in what you want to do with your own time thats important to just you and should not be something that others are trying to decide for you or put you down for doing. too much of that goes on in life in general to carry it into the stuff that is sposta be fun in your life!

 

clubs do tend to nucleate around something that is a common interest so its understandable they may only want to focus on one thing and thats fine. you cant expect them to do everything and if you put a lot of effort into doing a specific country/time period that if you are running stuff outside that all the time it ruins the effect a little. I know on jrm we tend to keep it all japanese but allow a few sneaks now and then of other stuff. but try to keep it really brief as one of the main points of the layout is to show japanese trains to the US public which does not see them much. having other stuff running just gets confusing for them and our message.

 

We actually have another local loose association called WoRMS (world rail modelers society) that is interested in modeling trains world wide! this group anything goes! very fun and eclectic. they meet once a month or two at someone's house (usually one member with a big marklin layout in the basement to play with) to play trains all afternoon and evening. so there you can even have a club that likes everything!

 

Webskipper im glad you played it cool with the club there and got your bullet trains in and got the door opened for them to accept them! i does help once they see how cool the trains are, even if they are stuck in transition era us, they cant deny how cool a bullet train looks zipping along! public really goes oooohs and ahhhhs. Actually on an NTrak US layout you could argue that you are running them to show what we could easily have here and probably close to what it would look like if we went with japanese technology. becomes a promo for HSR and something i think most of the club members would be in favor of. now if you do some japanese themed modules they wont be so shocked and probably get into the contrast.

 

cheers

 

jeff

[Martijn Meerts]

Few trains beat a 16-car 0 series to get some instant recognition and ooohhs and aaahhs :)

 

 

Jeff, if my E5 arrives in time, and if no one else from JRM ordered one, I can bring mine to the festival, see what kind of response it gets :). (supposed to be released early March...)

[Guest Closed Account 1]

Oh it'll get noticed.

 

I liked hearing the moms comment on how long it was. The Bullet train that is.

 

I smile and walk away with the controller biting my tongue.

 

Yup, got a simple cool idea to incorporate the Shinkansen modules within the legal tolerances of Ntrak. 16 feet with expansion to add my Tram with the upcoming Unitram crossings. Just need a place to build before the first big show in Winslow,AZ Tax Day weekend.

[bill937ca]

Oh it'll get noticed.

I liked hearing the moms comment on how long it was. The Bullet train that is.

 

[Guest ___]

Aaron,

 

you should have quipped back that with more japanese n scale modelers in the world than any other kind he was the oddball and you were just following the crowd!

 

cheers

 

jeff

 

I thoguht about it, but in my experience, my opinion of American railfans, and model railroaders is pretty brash. and decided it wasn't worth the effort.  I think that is one of the reason I get along well with N-trak and a lot of the other clubs we at the JRM buddy around. While they are not Japanese, they get in to some of the other scale and other type of RR fettishes that the mainstream HO and O scalers mock. I always found most the HO and O groups and models in general tend to be condescending towards the N, an dZ crowd as well as the international modelers and traction guys.

[Nick_Burman]

I'm very partial to tramways, especially those using older-style cars. And I'm fascinated by lines like the Enoden which are closely integrated with the towns they serve.

 

The older views show some scenes on the Hokuriku Railway Komatsu, Ishikawa and Asanogawa lines. Again, I'm fascinated by the simplicity of the rural lines, and the varied fleet of older rollingstock they used.

 

Cheers,

 

Mark.

 

 

 

 

 

Unlike many of you I have yet to visit Japan - most what I know about Japanese trains came through books and the web. However, like Mark, I’m attracted by Japan’s private lines (I happen to also like Hokutetsu; the Kanaiwa line is my favourite), mainly because they mix two facets of railroading I like most: traction and narrow gauge.  So far the railway which has caught my attention the most for modelling purposes is the sadly long-closed Kita-Ena Tetsudo north of Nagoya - interesting, arcane,  rolling stock coupled with nice mountain scenery and a couple of impressive steel bridges. The “wide gauge” lines are also interested, even if it is for the opposite reasons stated above: fast (but still at a “sane” speed), intensive service in an urban setting undertaken with often stylish rolling stock (Kintetsu springs to mind). Also the fact that within major urban areas one can move anywhere without using a car - very civilized. However there are some aspects of Japanese railroading (and public transport policy) which I disagree, namely the rundown of freight (contrary to what emissions control would dictate) and the reluctance of the Japanese at subsidizing public transportation, especially in rural areas.

 

Although I respect the Shinkansen as an icon of Japanese engineering and organizational practice success and might, I find it too anti-septic ...it just lacks character. The same for the TGV – give me any time a X2800 railcar meandering down a branch line in the Massif Central, calling at towns with names ended in “-ac”, wheels squealing round the sharp curves, the frantic roar of the SACM engine on the steep grades and that lovely two-tone horn so characteristic of French trains in general - and of the X2800s in particular. The same applies to Japan - give me an elderly interurban with growling traction motors any time.  Even some of the commuter lines are more interesting.  Plus, of course, the unique geographical and cultural scenarios in which the trains run.

 

Cheers NB

[Martijn Meerts]

The shinkansen don't lack character, they just have a character you don't really like. It's the same with many things.. Some like the old and loud American muscle cars, others prefer the comfort and silence of a modern luxury car.

 

Personally, I'd love it if steam trains were still on active duty, and that long distance luxury trains like the original Orient Express were still in service. At the same time, I do like the quiet and comfort of riding the ICE in first class.

[keitaro]

I read through a fair few pages of this some are good replies but others are garbage..

 

I agree that the shinkansen doesn't really fit in the coal yard etc. Alot of people are freight only especially in australia. There are the few that have passenger services but ingeneral most people are into freight.

 

This makes alot of sense and the wide curves required also means for a larger project space.  Perhaps in US if this HSR does go ahead one day there would be an emerging market for it. However in australia I think that Will be a loooooooooooooooooong time.

 

It's still hard to find nguage in general in Australia, good luck on finding a group in nsw with a shinkansen.

 

For me i like the wider variety of trains in particular kiha's and private trains as well.

 

Doesn't mean I wouldn't want an oscar in Nscale or a Tangara one day from aus..... (likely never to happen in my life time)

[Guest ___]

I think when it comes to the private lines vs the JR Lines, a lot depends on where you are. I didn't see much in the way of private lines in Kyushu. Saw a good bit in Kanto, and tons in Kansai. I spent more time on the private lines in Kansai than I did in Kanto. But, I digress. I'm not a fan of the newer shinkansen trains. I like the 0, 100, 200, 300, and 500's, everything else I don't care for, especially the E-series, and the 700s and 800 line.

[Bernard]

Am I surprised to see this thread again! I started this thread at another forum I belong to as a result of a post in another thread. The posted was writing about his grandchildren coming for a visit and he was thinking of buying one of those bullet trains at a cheap price because the kids like to run trains fast. After they left he would hide in a drawer never to be seen until the grandchildren return for a visit.

I PM the modeler to tell him good luck in finding a "cheap" bullet because they can run between $100 on up. I also went on to say that there are very serious modelers that model modern trains in particular High-speed and should be given the same recognition and respect as modelers who model other eras.  

As a result I started the thread, "Why are Bullet trains taboo?" as an open discussion....it was an interesting and lively thread to say the least.

One good thing that came out of it...another modeler started another thread about "foreign prototypes" which is a popular and on going thread at the other forum.

[Mudkip Orange]

"Bullet train are not just about speed or nothing. It might be more true in Japan but in Europe that's not the case. They often are mixed with other traffic (suburban, regional, suburban, freight...) and run also on normal lines.

 

I realize I'm responding to basically a two-year-old comment.

 

However, in the US that is it is indeed an "all or nothing" proposition. FRA regulations prevent the type of inter-operation with HSR and local consists on the same track as you have in say France or Germany. With the US you're either building a completely separate, non-compliant system that can't interface (as in California and Florida), or you're not really talking about high speed at all (as in the midwest/pacific northwest systems that max out at 110mph).

 

With California the plan long term is to have Caltrain and HSR share tracks, but this will only be achieved by moving Caltrain to being also noncompliant, with "temporal separation" meaning the freight trains only come online in the wee hours of the morning.

[KenS]

Well, you can mix them.  Witness the Acela, which has at least one 150 mph section shared with much slower commuter trains (and I think freight, although I'm not sure of that; there's freight on some sections, but maybe not those).

 

But there are compromises.  The trains can't be run as efficiently, or as often, as they might otherwise. And use of existing right-of-way tends to limit high-speed operation due to sharper curves, even if you eliminate grade crossings. Most of the Acela track is limited to 125 mph maximum operation for one reason or another. And many times actual speed is limited even more by signals due to other trains on the line.

 

But mixed-used may be the only cost-effective approach in densely-populated urban and surburban areas, which are exactly the kinds of area found on inter-city corridors where HSR makes the most sense in terms of potential ridership, at least in the U.S. There may be sections away from cities where new, dedicated, track could be built.  But I don't think you'll escape mixed use in most places.

[Guest ___]

There is also infrastructure issues as well. Along the NEC from DC to Baltimore for example, Acela trains share tracks with slower regional trains, and long distance trains. (ir Clocker type service, and long distance trains like the Silver Meteor) but also MARC trains and NS freight trains. While usually we see NS freights at night, NS does run several locals commonly seen with GP40's on point. Also note there are areas like Edgewood where the NEC is only two tracks. As a result the line and system has both bottlenecks and constraints.

[scott]

it wasn't worth the effort

 

Exactly--no matter what the topic, there's nothing to be gained by dealing with the "my way good" people. They seem to more interested with their superior position than in the actual topic--always rooting for the winner. It's just hard to believe that they lack perspective so badly that they want to call in Cardinal Fang over something like a hobby.

[Guest Closed Account 1]

This is actually a fun topic about model bullet trains.

 

We get to hear from people globally about their experiences with running bullets in the club or being kinda shunned like I felt before this weekend's club appearance at the fair. Bullets and the modern Diesels were what the people were drooling over and wanting to buy. One of our members is the manager of the only train shop and he is trying to figure out how to get Kato Bullets for his shelves.

 

Of all the scale modeling genres here in the U.S., it's model railroading that is taking the hardest beating with losing our biggest generation of modelers one by one with not much of an influx of younger members. Every organization has its waves.

 

Whatever rail you grew up with is probably going to be your true love, and at the same time the rail you see today has got to keep you in awe of the modern marvels and you'll probably want one or five for your collection, too. I grew up with Trolleys and subways in NYC, and dirty diesels hauling coal and iron ore in Pittsburgh, car carriers in Detroit, and now green energy massive diesel consists running through the Southwest.

 

Recruiting new members is easy, it's retention from minute one that the work begins.

[Krackel Hopper]

Last year I ran my Tomix 923 Dr. Yellow on the local "N-Trak" clubs holiday layout.  It was met with mixed feelings.  For starters, everyone was impressed at the detailing and design.  A few people did not believe it was an actual train until I showed them the picture on paperwork.  From an audience perspective, Dr. Yellow stole the show.  People were walking away from the other layout (the HO club) to come watch this yellow spaceship.  From the clubs perspective, they seemed very weary of this "foreign" thing on their layout.  Most of the club members sat with arms crossed watching this bullet train steal the show.  

 

To a certain extent I felt bad, here I show up and ask to run one of my trains and wind up getting more attention than anything they had been running all weekend.

 

I don't think the club has any "hatred" towards bullet trains, or any foreign trains.  I think it mimics a lot of what people have already said.  Because they did not grow up with it, and it is not in their backyard, it does not really interest them.

[The_Ghan]

Few trains beat a 16-car 0 series to get some instant recognition and ooohhs and aaahhs :)

 

 

Jeff, if my E5 arrives in time, and if no one else from JRM ordered one, I can bring mine to the festival, see what kind of response it gets :). (supposed to be released early March...)

 

 

Martijn, I'm ashamed of you !!!  Nothing beats a 16-car 0 series !!!   

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan