Jōetsu Shinkansen faster speeds by October 2016?

[Sacto1985]

Now that it appears JR East will finally retire the E4 Series trainset with its 240 km/h top speed before the October 2016 schedule change, I have t ask: will we see increased speeds on the Jōetsu route between Omiya and Niigata?

 

With only E2's (and possibly some E5's) now assigned to this route from October 2016 on, in theory we could see speeds as high as 270 km/h between Niigata and Takasaki and 260 km/h between Takasaki and Omiya (the 260 km/h speed to maintain compatibility with E7/W7 trainsets on the Hokuriku Shinkansen runs).

 

Hopefully, we'll find out soon....

[JR 500系]

Actually, it's rather sad to see the E4s go.... I would actually prefer the E4 to stay rather than get there faster in a few minutes less... The variety of rolling stock on the Joetsu will reduce and we will only be able to see E2, E3 or E5s....

[Sacto1985]

The Jōetsu route will likely be only E2's and E5's, with that one Genbi Shinkansen E3 excursion train running between Echigo-Yuzawa and Niigata. The E4's are getting old and expensive to repair, and their top speeds are at least 20 km/h slower than other JR East Shinkansen trainsets.

[JR 500系]

That's sad...

 

The Joetsu route from Tokyo to Fukushima, often ran by the E2 and E4s, is still coupled with the E3 Tsubasa, right? But I've yet to see a E5 Yamabiko coupled with a E3 Tsubasa...

[westfalen]

That's sad...

 

The Joetsu route from Tokyo to Fukushima, often ran by the E2 and E4s, is still coupled with the E3 Tsubasa, right? But I've yet to see a E5 Yamabiko coupled with a E3 Tsubasa...

You're thinking of the Tohoku Shinkansen, the Joetsu goes to Niigata.

[JR 500系]

You're thinking of the Tohoku Shinkansen, the Joetsu goes to Niigata.

 

Haha Yeh my bad. You're right!  :)

 

Joetsu only has E2, or E4s + E4s, like Max Tanigawa + Max Toki.... Next time, there'll only be E2 or E5 Toki/ Tanigawa ...

[bikkuri bahn]

Is there really an economic reason to increase the service speeds on this line?  There is no airline competition between Niigata and Tokyo, so the 97 minutes or so rail journey is more than adequate. Unless Niigata Prefecture puts some pressure on JR East to raise the speeds...otherwise I see little economic incentive for the railway.  For comparison, a daytime highway bus between Ikebukuro and Niigata Station takes about 5 hours...

[Sacto1985]

Is there really an economic reason to increase the service speeds on this line?  There is no airline competition between Niigata and Tokyo, so the 97 minutes or so rail journey is more than adequate. Unless Niigata Prefecture puts some pressure on JR East to raise the speeds...otherwise I see little economic incentive for the railway.  For comparison, a daytime highway bus between Ikebukuro and Niigata Station takes about 5 hours...

 

The entire Jōetsu route is capable of top speeds higher than 240 km/h. But with E4's only limited to a top speed of 240 km/h, no wonder why the E2's are also limited to 240 km/h. But now with the E4's likely retiring by this fall, a 260 km/h peak is possible between Niigata and Omiya, given the remaining trainsets (E2 and likely E5) are capable of much higher top speeds.

 

In fact, with the possibility of the Jōetsu line between Omiya and Takasaki being raised to 260 km/h top speed, that could also mean faster total travel times for the Hokuriku Shinkansen trains, especially the Kagayaki.

[katoftw]

Timetable scheduling would be a lot easier if all trains did the same speeds between Omiya and Takasaki.

[JR 500系]

I see... I guess it's also because of the upkeeping of the older E4 sets... Frankly, I don't fancy the additional 20km/h more in order to reach my destination a few minutes earlier if I had to give up riding on one of the most unique high speed double decker trains... The upper deck of the E4 is great for viewing scenery outside the window, especially when the parapet walls are high on the shinkansen tracks...

[Sacto1985]

Timetable scheduling would be a lot easier if all trains did the same speeds between Omiya and Takasaki.

 

In fact, since the Jōetsu line between Omiya and Takasaki have very few relatively sharp curves except north of Omiya Station and south of Takasaki Station, with the retirement of the E4's, the E2's (and likely E5's that will eventually assigned to the line) will be able to maintain 260 km/h almost all the way between the two stations. That right there could cut circa 3-5 minutes off the scheduled running time of the limited-stop Kagayaki and Toki trains.

[railsquid]

I see... I guess it's also because of the upkeeping of the older E4 sets... Frankly, I don't fancy the additional 20km/h more in order to reach my destination a few minutes earlier if I had to give up riding on one of the most unique high speed double decker trains... The upper deck of the E4 is great for viewing scenery outside the window, especially when the parapet walls are high on the shinkansen tracks...

 

On the plus side, single-deck trains vastly remove the chance of you ending up on the lower deck with its fantastic view of the retaining walls.

[Robert46]

Yeah, such a down side of double decker shinkansen, the lower deck is not favorite for travelers, but still will be sad to see the farewell with E4 series.. less variants on JR East fleet.

 

will there be any chance the E2 and E5 being coupled as one train or both will run as one single train? Sorry for silly question. :D

[Kamome]

I see... I guess it's also because of the upkeeping of the older E4 sets... Frankly, I don't fancy the additional 20km/h more in order to reach my destination a few minutes earlier if I had to give up riding on one of the most unique high speed double decker trains... The upper deck of the E4 is great for viewing scenery outside the window, especially when the parapet walls are high on the shinkansen tracks...

I'm a bit gutted that they're retiring them but that's progress I guess. Most E4s I've been on have been pretty empty anyway so passenger capacity is probably not enough to keep them in service, especially with the service frequency.  (I'll probably upset a few members by saying) I 've always looked at the E2 as a bit vanilla. No real design features that make it stand out, but a workhorse of the JR East fleet, I guess.

 

 The E4 is still one of my favourite shinkansens and as JR 500系 said, you get a great view from the top deck, especially at the yards on the North side of Ueno. Great sitting on the east side of the train and getting a good look over the wall. 

[cteno4]

I think the most impressed I've ever been by a Japanese train in person was standing on the platform next to a track as an E4 slid in almost silently. The nose growing and growing made it feel huge but graceful sliding in. Even though boxy it still felt smooth and sleek. Was a bit comical with a guy my size moving around inside one though!

 

Jeff

[Densha]

Can someone tell me what is the exact date of the October timetable revision is? If it's late in October I might have a chance of seeing it before it gets taken out of service. I find this to be the only impressive Shinkansen train remaining to be honest, together with the 500 series I guess. The other models are just, meh... okay-ish.

[ote-m]

Can someone link me to the announcement that the E4s will be retired? And someone said they'll be replacing these with E5s, is that also true?

[200系]

Tried to stay away from this thread, but well... here I am anyway.

 

 

 

will there be any chance the E2 and E5 being coupled as one train or both will run as one single train? Sorry for silly question.  :D

 

There's no such thing as a silly question. That said though, no there is no chance. Non of the shinkansen have been built with the ability to handle 20 car (full 25m cars as opposed to the 20m mini-shinkansen cars) formations. Platform length is limited to 16 cars max (or slightly above 400m in length) or the equivalent length with the mini-shinkansen formations, so there wouldn't be a single station platform long enough to handle such a train. 

 

 

 

 I 've always looked at the E2 as a bit vanilla. No real design features that make it stand out, but a workhorse of the JR East fleet, I guess.

 

I always find it interesting how opinions can differ, especially in relation to aesthetics (I personally prefer more subdued designs over flashy, so that might explain the difference as well).

 

For me, the E2系, even though somewhat plain, is my favourite post J.N.R. shinkansen design. I personally think the E2系 looks great when not seen from the direct front, her nose looks especially elegant when seen in profile (goes for the N700系 as well, she also has a very elegant profile), and I think the subtle duckbill looks a bit better then the more flashy nose of the E4系. The design it's self looks like a solid successor to the 200系 to me, and considering that's what she was designed to do, I'd say that's a solid mark for me. The asymmetric profile of the 10 car formations (J2~J15 and J51~J75) also adds an interesting variation in the mix. 

The E2系 also has a decent variety (for a post J.N.R. series that is) of subtypes and the difference they represent ( 0番台 and 1000番台) and formations (N/J2~J15 and J51~J75) for a "modern" shinkansen series, which is always a plus in my opinion.

 

I know I'm in a minority, but I really like the E2系. Sure she is nowhere near the beauty of the 200系 or 0系, but then again nothing is in my biased opinion (with perhaps an exception for the 100系).

 

 

 

On the plus side, single-deck trains vastly remove the chance of you ending up on the lower deck with its fantastic view of the retaining walls.

 

Or even worse, end up in one of the six abreast unreserved sections... *shudders*

 

 

 

Can someone tell me what is the exact date of the October timetable revision is?

 

Can someone link me to the announcement that the E4s will be retired?

 

As far as I know, there isn't any at the moment. I'm not sure where Sacto1985 got this information from, but I personally haven't been able to find anything in relation to a October 2016 retirement (as far as I'm aware, the autumn timetable revision always happens in September, not October), nor does it mesh with the information I have.

 

From what I could find on this subject, the general consensus is that the E4系 will be retired at the end of fiscal 2016 at the latest, which would coincide with the March 2017 timetable revision (of course, that doesn't mean the entire series would be retired in March 2017, formations will be gradually retired throughout this year until the final formations will exit service with the timetable revision).

However as I haven't seen any official announcement from JR East, or the JR East Niigata branch, take this for what it's worth.

 

 

 

And someone said they'll be replacing these with E5s, is that also true?

 

Not really, at least not directly. The general idea, as far as we know today, is that new E5系/H5系 formations will fully replace the remaining E2系 formations (E2系1000番台,J51~J75 formations) on the Tōhoku shinkansen which in turn will cascade down to the Jōetsu shinkansen to replace ageing E2系0番台 J formations (J2~J15 subgroup, four formations having already been scrapped in the last three years). The E4系 formations will in turn be replaced by a combination of surplus E2系1000番台 J formations (not all of them are needed for the replacement of their older sisters) , and new built E7系 formations.

Again though, information on this subject is rather scarce at the moment, so take it for what it's worth.

 

As for the thread starter's hypothesis:  

 

 

 

With only E2's (and possibly some E5's) now assigned to this route from October 2016 on, in theory we could see speeds as high as 270 km/h between Niigata and Takasaki and 260 km/h between Takasaki and Omiya (the 260 km/h speed to maintain compatibility with E7/W7 trainsets on the Hokuriku Shinkansen runs).

 

In theory everything is possible, reality may be different though.

 

I think you are trying to correlate two separate, and unrelated, issues here.

 

-The retirement of the E4系, which happens to be the only 240km/h limited shinkansen series left at JR East (again, the top speed has nothing to do with their retirement).

-A Hypothetical speed increase from the current 240km/h to a suggested 275km/h made possible by this retirement.

 

The first one is a fact, the E4系 is close to retirement by virtue of it's age (the oldest formations are 19 years old today), and the slow erosion of it's design mission (declining birthrate and a decreasing population in the north of Japan). The restricted 240km/h top speed however, plays no part at all in JR east's decision to retire the series.

 

I don't see any compelling evidence for the second part either. Unlike the Tōkaidō shinkansen which has been functioning at, or near max capacity for decades, the Jōetsu shinkansen never had the sheer volume of traffic it's older sister had to content with. As a result, speed differences where never a big issue, operationally speaking, for this relatively quiet shinkansen (it's actually the worst performing of the four, J.N.R., built Shinkansen, and has always been), as there is more then enough leeway in the timetable to adjust for the relative differences.

As such, when the first E2系0番台 J formations where transferred from the Tōhoku to the Jōetsu shinkansen to replace the six E1系formations, and later the final renewal-ed 200系 K formations, JR East could have easily increased the top speed for E2系 operated service from 240 to 275km/h... Yet they never did.

 

It's not as if it's the first time such speed differences existed on the Jōetsu shinkansen either, between march of 1990 and December 1999 JR East operated a select number of Asahi down services, which reached a maximum speed of 275km/h between Jōmō-Kōgen and Urasa station. This service used four modified 200系 F formations (renumbered into the F90~F93 sub-group, they where actually the fastest trains in Japan (measured by top speed) between 1990 and the entry into service of the 500系 in 1997) all capable of such speeds, while at the same time JR East was still using the 200系 E formations (until 1992/1993) and G formations (until late 1999) which where limited to a 210km/h top speed, which where almost exclusively assigned to services on the Jōetsu shinkansen.

Same goes for the Tōhoku shinkansen, even though it's a much busier route then the Jōetsu shinkansen (the section between Tōkyō/Ueno and Ōmiya is the second busiest shinkansen of Japan, though as the max speed is restricted to 110km/h differing performance doesn't cause any operational constrains here, unlike the Tōkaidō shinkansen), up till the retirement of the E4系 in 2012, services with a 240km/h and 275km/h (and even 300km/h after the introduction of the E5系) top speed where mixed together without much issues in terms of scheduling. The retirement of the final 240km/h max shinkansen series in 2012, as well as the increase in top speed to 320km/h has more to do with a shift in strategy (speed versus capacity) and a realignment in terms of passenger amenities (Gran class) in light of the changing demographics of Northern Japan, then it has anything to do with the hypothetical issues arising due to the different performance of selected shinkansen series.

 

Of course, as we are speculating here, I'm not all knowing, and I can't 100% rule out the possibility of a future speed increase (no one can predict the future). However considering the above, and the fact you only seem to be motivated by your own opinion, without much to support said opinion, I still say it's improbable in this particular situation.

My apologies if I may come across as harsh (and for ignoring whatever reason you may have for your behaviour), but I'm kind off fed up discussing/explaining various subjects with you, only to have it ignored anyway. As such, I hope this helps those who are curious about this particular subject, and once again my apologies for my rudeness 

 

 

Edited March 29, 2016 by 200系

[Sacto1985]

I personally think with the E4系 approaching the point of retirement, there'll soon be no more need for a 240 km/h speed restriction to accommodate that trainset. As such, that makes possible (in theory) to increase the speed limit on the Jōetsu Shinkansen line between Omiya and Takasaki Stations to 260 km/h, the maximum speed of the E7系 trainset. I wouldn't be surprised if JR East imposes the new speed limit on this part of the Jōetsu line some time in 2017. As for the part of the Jōetsu line between Takasaki and Niigata, I still see a potential speed increase, though I won't hazard a guess at how high, though.

[JR 500系]

Great info Sander san~ I knew a shinkansen topic would surely spark a great informative read from you ~~   :)

 

I like the E2 too, not exactly my favourite, but the nose is nice like Sander san has said, not too flashy, but nice. Also, the colour works well for me, white, pink stripe and blue bottom... The new E4 that also carried this colour looks great too ~

 

 

I personally think with the E4系 approaching the point of retirement, there'll soon be no more need for a 240 km/h speed restriction to accommodate that trainset. As such, that makes possible (in theory) to increase the speed limit on the Jōetsu Shinkansen line between Omiya and Takasaki Stations to 260 km/h, the maximum speed of the E7系 trainset. I wouldn't be surprised if JR East imposes the new speed limit on this part of the Jōetsu line some time in 2017. As for the part of the Jōetsu line between Takasaki and Niigata, I still see a potential speed increase, though I won't hazard a guess at how high, though.

 

Sorry but the maximum speed of E7? I thought the E7s were only used exclusively for Nagano and Hokuriku shinkansen and not Joetsu? Joetsu would be using the E2 which should have a maximum speed of 275.

[Sacto1985]

Sorry but the maximum speed of E7? I thought the E7s were only used exclusively for Nagano and Hokuriku shinkansen and not Joetsu? Joetsu would be using the E2 which should have a maximum speed of 275.

 

The E7/W7 was designed with a top speed of 260 km/h--and in fact, will run at around that speed on the Hokuriku line between Nagano and Kanazawa. The E7/W7 trainsets run on the Jōetsu line between Omiya and Takasaki--a distance of 77.3 kilometers; they're limited to 240 km/h there due to the current presence of the E4's. Once the E4's retire, only the E2 and E7/W7 trainsets will use that line, and that's why raising the speed limit to 260 km/h between Omiya and Takasaki is now theoretically possible, given the lack of sharp curves except near Omiya and Takasaki Stations.

[Melandir]

Great post Sander san, it's always a pleasure to read you