World Kogei Tokai KiYa 97

[katoftw]

nice find kato!

 

Jeff

I was quite chuffed with myself when I found them.  Thought others would enjoy the light show also.  So I shared.

[katoftw]

From a different manufacturer

 

 

http://mokei-ya.cocolog-nifty.com/blog/2012/01/post-3378.html

http://mokei-ya.cocolog-nifty.com/blog/2012/01/post-4566.html

http://mokei-ya.cocolog-nifty.com/blog/2012/01/post-cd41.html

 

Edited January 2, 2016 by katoftw

[kvp]

That kit seems to use the exact same motor unit like the plastic variant. For the rail holder clamp, i would use a small etched metal part as that would be stronger.

 

I have quite a lot of hybrid metal/plastic models, including some cast metal, moded plastic and etched metal models (even some old ones with stamped metal parts), but they are Z scale and were made by Maerklin. A good example is their V100 which was actually built by an asian subcontractor. It has a cast metal shell, with a molded plastic roof and plastic sideframe on a machined metal chassis and etched metal railings and also comes with (3+2)*2 chip scale package micro leds in the light boards (CL compatible). It's completly doable, but the costs are really high, so i think the classic mostly plastic design used on Kato/Tomix/Tomytec trains is much more economical. Adding etched metal is a good idea though as it tends to only bend instead of breaking, which means it can be repaired most of the time simply by bending it back. (not to mention the higher detail level)

[velotrain]

The Mokei rail support / clamping device is really well done, and I wonder if they would be willing to sell it separately as a grade-up product?

 

Ditto for the lighting system, although they may be less than enthusiastic about supporting a competitor's products.

 

You have every right to be chuffed.

Edited January 3, 2016 by velotrain

[cteno4]

this looks to be a world kogei special edition kit, so that makes sense the same motor. 

 

maybe world kogei would sell parts for grade up to their newer line of cheaper plastic kits, but they would need to probably do that when they do the special edition run though... the special edition runs are expensive so i think they may want to keep those as the high class stuff and then the plastic line as a bargain line.

 

other companies have done grade up parts for some of the world kogei plastic models. world kogei did sell the grade up etched grill and end for the plastic series shunter (the one charles loves ;-p) and bona sold grade up window glass inserts as well for it. if the Kiya 97 proves popular as a plastic kit maybe they will offer some and others come forward.

 

jeff

[velotrain]

Jeff - are you saying that Mokei-ya is actually World Kogei?

 

Or, are they just a retailer?

 

I don't know what kvp was basing this on:

 

"That kit seems to use the exact same motor unit like the plastic variant."

 

as we've only seen the bottom view of the plastic kit, and a top view of the etch version.  Given the space available, a vertical motor driving through the bogie is pretty much the only viable solution, so it's logical that every manufacturer producing a KiYa97 would take this approach.  I guess I'd be surprised if it's the same motor - whoever makes the etched brass kit - as I'd expect the etched kit to have a much higher quality motor than the plastic version.  Also - the etched kit has a motor at each end, while (we all seem to believe) that the plastic kit only has one motor.  OR - perhaps the plastic kit only having one motor is what allows it to be so competitively priced.

[katoftw]

Bottom of the brass kit:-
 

 

It does seem to use the same motor unit.  Or something very very similar.

Edited January 3, 2016 by katoftw

[cteno4]

Mokei-ya Is a hobby shop.

 

http://homepage3.nifty.com/mokei-ya/

 

Their blog has interesting builds like this they do at the shop. They look to have a lot of interesting more unique items from smaller producers. Also a store layout

 

http://homepage3.nifty.com/mokei-ya/layout.html

 

The kit in kato's link is a World kogei (world craft) special edition unit, the full build like most of the full world kogei kits where you generally build everything except wind the motor! They also usually pretty expensive as well! The new version is their new economical plastic kits.

 

The mech looks to be their standard vertical motor single truck unit. It's just a prebuilt version in the new plastic kit that is in the build it all yourself unit. That's why kvp thought it looked the same as their standard little mechs

 

http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10338268

 

Cheers

 

Jeff

[velotrain]

Thanks for the info.  katoftp said it was a different manufacturer, and since he knows so much more about Japan than I do, I took his word for it.

 

It seems that there might have been a much more crude kit some time ago, perhaps circa 2008, as I've found a number of photos.

 

 

[Das Steinkopf]

The World Kogei etched brass kit dates from 2011 and was ¥18,000, I am happy that they have bought out the plastic version as it will be far easier to build as well as less than half the price compared to the brass kit, I avoided brass kits like the plague when I was doing OO Gauge and I would dread to think how fiddly it would be trying to assemble one in N Gauge. That said it would have been nice if they had made the clamp for the plastic kit out of an etching or whitemetal casting to get a higher level of detail, as noted by Velotrain they could have had this as an option pack like they have with their super detailing component sets they have for some Kato RTR models, mind you some careful use of indexing drills and micro files you could do some work on the plastic clamp.

Edited January 3, 2016 by Das Steinkopf

[velotrain]

There is a bit of confusion here. There is a longer train that has a bit higher cabs and ramps for the long rails on the fronts. This however seems like a genuine 2 car set for short pieces and other equipment.

 

Although the train on the left is the DMU found by katoftp, and not the KiYa97, they do share the same nose - although the DMU is missing the front porch.  On the right is the larger rail carrier mentioned by kvp, and it is noticeably higher - entirely due to the rail feeding (ramp) system under the cab, as otherwise the KiYa cab is actually higher and maybe a tad wider.

 

 

 

 

I had seen several photos of the larger rail carrier (designation?) carrying what looks to be a portable, temporary field office, and have found two images of the KiYa97 carrying these.  In one case, it looks like the car was also used as the site for a meeting.

 

If these cabins aren't available commercially (although I suspect they might be), they should be easy to scratchbuild.

 

My thanks to Martijn for restoring the Gallery functionality.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 4, 2016 by velotrain

[Das Steinkopf]

Hello Charles

 

The DMU found by Katoftw is a KiYa 95 also known as Doctor Tokai, there a 2 units DR1 and DR2 of which the one in the photo is DR1, DR1 is fitted out as a catenary inspection and testing vehicle whilst DR2 is a signalling diagnostic unit, the way you can distinguish between these two train easily is that DR1 has a pantograph fitted to it for testing the catenary.

Edited January 5, 2016 by Das Steinkopf

[velotrain]

Thanks for the info, but I was actually wondering about the larger rail-train unit.  I see R101 on the windshield, but a search for that proved useless, so it clearly isn't the unit type.  I've noticed that usually half the results in a search for KiYa97 images are usually of big brother, so theorize that it's also a KiYa of unknown number.

 

DR1 is obviously fitted for dual power, as there are no overhead lines in the photo.

 

 

BTW - why would you want to be "stone head", or is it non-Germanic?  If it is, I don't expect the Das to be capitalized.

[kvp]

I managed to look up some data: Both units are KiYa-s, the class number is 97 and the sets are the following:

- 2 car low cab units: KiYa97-1 to 4 + KiYa97-101 to 104 (4 sets, R1-R4)

- long rail, high cab units: KiYa97-201 + KiYa96 middle cars + KiYa97-202 (1 set, R101)

 

DR1 is not dual power, the pantograph is only there for catenary measurements. (it's possible to measure geometry on unpowered catenary, but voltage levels can only be tested with a live, unloaded system) There are 2 sets, DR1 and DR2, all four cars are KiYa95-s, organised in pairs with a shorter middle car with a middle bogie (probably for track measurements):

-KiYa95-1 to 2 + KiSaYa94-1 to 2 + KiYa95-101 to 102

 

The underframes and most systems are the same, so the units are differing only in the cabs/rail handing equipment and parts seem interchangable. From the descriptions the cars seem to be married pairs, including the long rail unit, where the middle cars also seem to be mostly powered and in pairs with the cab units or each other. The base model for the cars was the JRC KiHa75 DMU.

Edited January 5, 2016 by kvp

[velotrain]

kvp - that's not some data, that's a lot of data ;-)

 

I tried modifying my search term, and found a bunch of new (to me) photos, covering several different areas of prior discussion.

 

First of these is rail mounting / clamping, and how the unit handles curves.  I think this is the definitive shot of the clamping mechanism; although it answers some questions, it raises a new one.  The bottom of the unit is clearly bolted to the deck, and it also looks to be fastened to the sides of the car.  I also found a clear image of the clamping unit with the car loaded - notice that the springs are almost fully compressed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

However, I can't make any sense of the rollers at the second level off the floor, or why two would face in one direction and the other two at 90 degrees to that - opinions welcome.

 

I found two images of the unit going around reasonably gentle curves, and believe I see some bend in the rails between the two cars, so don't believe that the mount at either end swivels.  However, apparently the unit is designed so the rails will sag in the middle, so that might be all that I'm seeing.  What do other sets of eyes say?

 

If you zoom in on the first image, you can clearly see clamps on the rear support pressing against the rails, although we can't know just how much pressure there is - I should think it needs to be somewhat loose to accommodate flex in the curves.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It's circumstantial evidence, but this loaded unit parked just outside a facility with three bridge cranes over a track indicates that not all loading is done with the small onboard cranes and hoists.

 

 

 

 

 

A shot of a loaded unit taken from an overbridge.

 

 

 

 

 

Detail on the back of the cab

 

 

 

 

 

Image of a KiYa97 in the mountains

 

 

 

 

 

The cab is yellow, but the body of this unit is more of an orange

 

 

[cteno4]

Charles,

 

I think that is the money shot! The clamp frame does rotate! The clamp frame is rotated in the picture. The angled rollers are what supports the weight and allows it to rotate around a central pin. I'm guessing there are two rings of 6 rollers each, two are hidden directly under the center cross piece and a pair on either side angled at tangents to the ring.

 

The side bolt does not anchor to the side it is a bolt that can be tightened won't to stop sided to side motion. You can see it in both frames in other shots cinched down to the side of the rail

 

I think that curve in the rail may be angle and lens warp.

 

Yeah I would assume loaded at a yard with some sort of yard gantry crane system and then those portables are used on site to dump the rail next to the track for use.

 

Anyway that's my guess!

 

Cheers

 

Jeff

[katoftw]

The clamping mech does not need to rotate.  The rail can stay straight while the angle between the 2 cars can change.  The rail ends and middle of space to allow movement when the 2 cars a in a curve.

 

The bend in the middle of the rails while the cars are in a curve is because of the weight of the rails causing fictional grab on the yellow supports underneath them.

 

Now this is all good on prototypical corners of 22km radius.  But in N scale would, I'm doubtful R315/C317 will allow such rail movements.

Edited January 5, 2016 by katoftw

[cteno4]

In Many shots the rail appears suspended between the two frames above those center cross pieces.

 

Rotating the clamp allows easy movement of the whole piece which is a pretty dense block once stacked in the alternating pattern they have. This removes all the lateral pressure on the center trucks by doing this. Even if it sags an presses some on the center cross pieces it can still slide some over them to release tension.

 

The shot above shows the clamp frame at an angle and rollers under it.

 

Jeff

[velotrain]

Charles,

 

I think that is the money shot! The clamp frame does rotate! The clamp frame is rotated in the picture. The angled rollers are what supports the weight and allows it to rotate around a central pin. I'm guessing there are two rings of 6 rollers each, two are hidden directly under the center cross piece and a pair on either side angled at tangents to the ring.

 

The side bolt does not anchor to the side it is a bolt that can be tightened won't to stop sided to side motion. You can see it in both frames in other shots cinched down to the side of the rail

 

 

Jeff - I hadn't been reading the photo correctly, and agree with you.  There must be something that limits the pivot, as the base plates for the rollers don't extend very far.

I later noticed that the angle of the two (visible) rollers on each side is different, and that is explained by the varying radius of each.

 

Also, the shot from the bridge confirms that there is plenty of leeway on each side of the rail bundle for the rotation to take place, so the unit may be able to handle curves much sharper than these.

 

katoftw - "The bend in the middle of the rails while the cars are in a curve is because of the weight of the rails causing fictional grab on the yellow supports underneath them."

 

I know you meant frictional, but I think it is actually fictional in this case. 

 

The reason I said that the unit is designed so the rails will sag in the middle, is that the support at the end of the car (middle of the set) is lower than the fixed and rotating supports towards the middle.  I have no proof of this, but am basing it largely on the "money shot".  You'll notice that the segments (each hole) of the end support (nearest us) are rectangular in shape, while the segments of the other fixed support are more square in shape.

 

If you look at the two curve photos, it looks to me that there is clear daylight between the two end supports and the rail bundle.  I suspect this was done precisely to eliminate friction as the cars round a turn.  The change in the angle of the cars is taken up by the two rotating supports, while there is some degree of pivoting / sliding on the middle fixed support.  Jeff - do you agree with this?

 

I'm fairly certain now that what I perceived as the rail bending in the curve shots is actually rail drooping, as it would be very hard to differentiate between these from the available angles.  Now - if we only had a bridge shot on a curve!

[Das Steinkopf]

BTW - why would you want to be "stone head", or is it non-Germanic? If it is, I don't expect the Das to be capitalized.

Many years ago I used the moniker of Brickhead on AFOL (Adult Fans Of Lego) websites, I decided to change my name to Das Steinkopf to be more reflective of what I was building whilst keeping the Brickhead monikier of sorts, Steinkopf is a rough German translation of Brickhead whilst Das is the initials of my name as well as being German for "the". Part of the reason for choosing the name was to identify myself with the hobby much like a number of people have done here, also it was a piece of merciless self mockery or as us Australians would say "taking the piss out of oneself".

 

Regards

Dave

Edited January 5, 2016 by Das Steinkopf

[velotrain]

Dave - thanks for the complete historical explanation.  Charles

[velotrain]

I had written World Kogei and heard from them today:

 

Mr. Charles Hansen
Thank you very much for your contact.
The lighting unit of the picture isn't our product.
Perhaps it seems to have processed and have installed a product of an other company.
It's said that there are also no making schedules grade-up parts of rail support.
You can't live up to expectations, and I apologize for that.
thank you,
World Craft company 　Kazuto Orimoto

[cteno4]

Ah then mokei-ya either made it themselves or adapted some garage company end lighting kit.

 

Contact mokei-ya, but they may not have any English speaker to reply and may or may not care to go offshore at all.

 

The hardest part is the truck pickups and chasis transfer. Lighting is just diodes, resisters, smd LEDs (you can buy these prewired pretty cheap) and some fine wire. I can sell you a kit Charles!

 

Jeff

[velotrain]

_{I translated the Mokei page, and it's a one off, apparently done outside the shop.}

 

 

[cteno4]

yeah i was not sure how to interpret that translation! 

 

i am wondering if they are going to use the same rear truck and maybe thus the pickup as well to get power from both trucks for the motor unit like the original did. if the dummy unit uses the same trucks maybe they can also get pickups as well easily.

 

looking at the hs pictures of the prototype it looks like it might be perfect to put two smd 402 leds behind the head/tail light lenses to light them. also with the overhead light as well. fun fun fun.

 

jeff