World Kogei Tokai KiYa 97

[velotrain]

KiHa97 operating in the snow:

 

 

Also - an interesting still from it showing some painted rail ends.  Kind of looks like the Akita Chuo Kotsu colors.

 

Since all of the rail appears to be the same weight, I can only think that the colors indicate unloading location.  I still have no idea of how it's loaded or unloaded.

 

Edited January 1, 2016 by cteno4

[Das Steinkopf]

KiHa97 operating in the snow:

 

 

Also - an interesting still from it showing some painted rail ends. Kind of looks like the Akita Chuo Kotsu colors.

 

Since all of the rail appears to be the same weight, I can only think that the colors indicate unloading location. I still have no idea of how it's loaded or unloaded.

 

KiHa97 with rail ends painted.jpg

The KiYa 97 is running along the Iida Line, the first station in the video is Ina-Shimmachi, the train then runs to Tatsuno where it picks picks up some drivers and then travels back southwards on the Iida Line, I think they might be using it to clear the snow from sections of the line as well as running train crews to the depot at Ina-Matsushima.

Edited January 1, 2016 by Das Steinkopf

[velotrain]

I've been frustrated at not being able to find any photos or video of the KiYa97 being loaded or unloaded.  Although, it's not surprising when you consider that over 90% of the images are shot at stations.  You'd need a dedicated railfan who has reliable info on when and where the real activity is taking place.

 

I've finally tracked down one image that, while far from being explicit, does provide some very strong anecdotal evidence.  There are many worker bees busy in this photo and, based on the stack beyond the unit, I think we're save in assuming that this is a loading scene.  You'll notice two small, temporary bridge cranes installed, with one support attached to the inside wall of the car, and the other clearly extending beyond the other side of the car.  The support on the ground is undoubtedly similar to T-Trak in terms of having adjustable legs.

 

There appears to be an orange-bodied hoist just to the right of the figure closest to us, while in the background the hoist looks to be on the far left of the second bridge.  It seems likely that the nearer one has already been detached from the rail section just loaded, while the second hoist is just being detached.  The best way to spot the location of the hoists is by a yellow element just above the bridge rail - you can see this better at 200% or 400%.

 

The one thing I find puzzling about this image is that the rail just loaded seems to be on a third layer, while a standard (maximum?) load for these units appears to be two levels, based on all the previous evidence that I've seen.  The only possibility I can think of is that it's going to be manually rolled down to the next lower level to achieve the alternate loading pattern that seems to be the standard.  The rails are so tightly stacked on the unit that I suspect that can't be achieved with the hoists, so final manual positioning is required.

 

I'm open to opposing views.  

 

 

 

[cteno4]

Yep looks like a simple gantry crane with little hoists and manual sliding. All probably stores along the sides. Nice and simple! Drops the rails next to the track to be used then.

 

Hard to say, maybe moved one up there to fiddle with a lower row. I would expect it a lot safer and easier to flip rails on the ground and drop them into final place that try any manual fiddling of rails on top of other layers of rail up on the cars. Those rail sections are probably a ton apiece so not something A few guys move around manually! The clamp mechanism looks like there may be room for three rows.

 

Liking these a lot, great mow in a smaller scene. I could see running a pair of them and then you could even break them so one was out running loaded or not and the other could be in a siding loading rail. These little gantry cranes would be really easy to build (I bet someone on shapeways had done a small winch unit like that or at n scale it could almost be a 2mm bead!). Also world kogei did a nice job it looks doing the etched metal details for the stainless bits on the prototype to go over the plastic shell. Very decent price as well.

 

Full welded rail train is cool, bit it's almost as long as a full Shinkansen train! Even with the flex rubber rail I'm still not sure how they will do on the usual layout curves. Seems like something to be fiddling with all the time. Of course can always just run empty!

 

Cheers

 

Jeff

[velotrain]

Jeff - Looking at the photos of the loaded rails, my feeling is that they're stacked much too closely to be accomplished by just using the hoist.  For one thing, whatever is used for the hoist to actually lift them (belt, cable, etc.) would not fit between the loaded rails, so they'd never be able to extract it.

 

Actually, I initially thought there was some sort of flat surface loaded on top of the rails, until close-up images showed that it was just the feet of the inverted rails as close to each other as is possible.  My take is that since the units have limited length and allowed height, they make sure that there is no wasted space in what they have to work with.

 

I've looked at a lot of photos and video (all that I can find), and am quite certain that I've never seen one of these units stacked higher than two layers of rail.  In fact - looking at images of loaded units, it doesn't seem that the clamps can go high enough to deal with another layer.  Look at the photo I posted of the unit carrying the rail pieces with colored ends - that's clearly the max height.

 

BTW - the crudeness of this clamping mechanism is my major disappointment with the World Kogei kit.  I'm hoping it will be improved on the final kit, as I interpret the HS description as suggesting that the photos may show a 3D printed prototype for the kit.  " ※ picture was colored prototype by the 3D printer. "  AFAIK, none of the model photos so far show the back of the cab, so I'm curious how much of that detail is presented, and if it's represented as stainless.

 

If not improved, maybe somebody will produce a better clamp and the bridge cranes and hoists - I'm keeping it anonymous so you can't claim that I'm expecting too much ;-) 

 

There's a half hour video (takes some patience to watch it all) posted by das Steinkopf, showing a DE10 bringing two empty KiYa97's to a small yard, then pulling out a loaded one from an adjacent track.  It then drops this outside the yard, so apparently it's to be picked up again later - perhaps by a different DE10.

 

I hadn't been interested in the DE10 - asymmetrical axle arrangements have always looked "wrong"  to me.  However, I just ordered one to run with a de-powered KiYa97.

 

 

[kvp]

I'm curious about this, as I've always understood the traditional logic to be that you wanted multiple pickups to be far apart?  i.e. guys adding pickup to a tender to supplement that on a steam engine.

If the motors are too far apart or the train is too light, then it could lead to derailments if the pusher is a bit stronger (or the front motor looses power). In this kit, the 3 trailer bogies have no weight on them, so they can be pushed up and off the rails easily. By putting the motors next to each other, they act more or less as a single 4 axle locomotive in the middle of a consist.

 

 

as I interpret the HS description as suggesting that the photos may show a 3D printed prototype for the kit.

The yellow car is 3D printed, the grey photos show the actual plastic kit. (the back walls are nicely done, buy gray like the sides, while both are stainless steel in reality, so you'll have to paint them)

[cteno4]

Charles,

 

Yes it may be only 2 high max. I would guess they use a mechanical scissor grab claw to grasp the rail. This would be easy to pry the end rail over to get clearance to grab a rail. It does look like a rail is up on the third level as a temporary holding place. I'll look again, but I got the impression on a few of the videos there was a small spacer plate between the two layers of rail. Who knows as we are supposing from one tiny photo!

 

Over all the detail on that prototype looks pretty nice. The clamp does not have break thru in the fine space ther, might be the prototype. But even if it is that one if you wanted the detail in there it could easily be carved out or just add in a detail yourself on the clamp bar and vertical clamps.

 

Think you can wish on for this detail part to be produced by the garage market! Even if it is I doubt it might get distribution for export notice. Bridge cranes would not be hard to scratch build, they are pretty simple. Which is the detail bit, but at n scale it's about 3mm and won't seeing that detail at 2'. For the most part the detail is on par with most n scale.

 

Unfortunately if someone does these do this it will probably be at your favorite place, shapeways! ;-p

 

I'm glad I saved a bundle of flex track I picked up way back at $1 per piece! I can strip it for rail! But might be better to just get some code 40 rail to make a load more prototypical.

 

Ive always loved the DE10's asymmetry! Nice feel to it, I think you will enjoy it.

 

Jeff

[velotrain]

The yellow car is 3D printed, the grey photos show the actual plastic kit. (the back walls are nicely done, buy gray like the sides, while both are stainless steel in reality, so you'll have to paint them)

 

I may have to come up with my own color scheme ;-)

 

 

I was obviously thinking more in terms of pickup vs. power.  In this case there is some presumption that the motors are more or less about the same, and the unpowered cars can have weight added - maybe some non-plastic rail hidden at the bottom of the pile (and not across the two cars - "mind the gap" as they say in the U.K. !! )

[velotrain]

> but I got the impression on a few of the videos there was a small spacer plate between the two layers of rail. Who knows as we are supposing from one tiny photo!

 

There is definitely something between the layers.  My first "video still" shows it decently well.  I only see one, but am certain that it's repeated periodically.

> Think you can wish on for this detail part to be produced by the garage market! Even if it is I doubt it might get distribution for export notice. Bridge cranes would not be hard to scratch build, they are pretty simple. Which is the detail bit, but at n scale it's about 3mm and won't seeing that detail at 2'. For the most part the detail is on par with most n scale.

 

Yeah - I probably am worrying about it too much.  I think it's mostly that it looks so different from what you see on the proto car, but it may be fine at normal viewing distance.  Or - I can put a really tiny drill in my Dremel and create some daylight in there !!

 

> Unfortunately if someone does these do this it will probably be at your favorite place, shapeways! ;-p

 

That's just a nasty rumor started by Toni ;-)  I think that 3D printing hasn't quite arrived, and wish that somehow SW could make it easy (ier) for designers to offer multi-media products / kits, as 3DP is often not the best solution for everything. 

I do have some admin / ethical issues with SW, such as allowing people to list products with misleading renderings that they haven't even test printed themselves.

> I'm glad I saved a bundle of flex track I picked up way back at $1 per piece! I can strip it for rail! But might be better to just get some code 40 rail to make a load more prototypical.

 

I just sent a message to Peter at N Scale Kits asking what the minimum radius is for their rail without derailing the carrier cars.  I'm curious - you call it rubber, but they describe it as plastic?

What radius do you think you'd need to get the code 40 to bend without pushing the KiYa off the rails?

 

 

==>>  How do you do a "multiquote" for a single message?  Just hit Quote a bunch of times and then edit each one ??

 

 

[katoftw]

The loading photo provided has the rails 3 deep when loaded on the Kiya.

 

edit//  MAybe not.  Might just be a piece of track curved upwards, still attached to the lift.

Edited January 2, 2016 by katoftw

[katoftw]

I didn't realize the Kiya 97 has a half bother?

 

[velotrain]

The loading photo provided has the rails 3 deep when loaded on the Kiya.

 

edit//  MAybe not.  Might just be a piece of track curved upwards, still attached to the lift.

 

Damn you katoftw - you made an Edit before I could respond to the original version of your post!

 

EVERY image that I have seen of the Kiya97 in actual operation shows only two layers.

We should be glad - that's why they need to run so many multiple unit trains ;-)

[katoftw]

I had noticed that also.  So when I went back to the exampled photo to confirm.  I saw my mistake.

[kvp]

I'm curious - you call it rubber, but they describe it as plastic?

What radius do you think you'd need to get the code 40 to bend without pushing the KiYa off the rails?

As Jeff pointed out, the prototype rail holders can turn, which means you don't have to bend the rails to go through a curve. There must be a gap though between the rail holders and the cars for the rails to have enough space. Imho this can be achived with the model too.

[velotrain]

I had noticed that also.  So when I went back to the exampled photo to confirm.  I saw my mistake.

 

I was just startled as I clicked on Quote before your edit was posted, but then it showed up in the quote box !

 

It made me think - how did he do that?

[velotrain]

As Jeff pointed out, the prototype rail holders can turn, which means you don't have to bend the rails to go through a curve. There must be a gap though between the rail holders and the cars for the rails to have enough space. Imho this can be achived with the model too.

 

A good point, and there's another reason for replacement holders!  It'd be fun to watch the holders pivot on a model.  I've noticed that the rails are only clamped down on one car, so they're free to flex on the other.  There's also a chain around them in the middle, roughly between the two cars.

[cteno4]

Damn you katoftw - you made an Edit before I could respond to the original version of your post!

 

EVERY image that I have seen of the Kiya97 in actual operation shows only two layers.

We should be glad - that's why they need to run so many multiple unit trains ;-)

I don't think it's just a rail still attached as the foreground end is up 3 high and its winch is already detached! The rear winch seems to be in the process of getting detached. My thought is they just had to get a piece of rail out of the way for a bit and put it up on top instead of on the ground. But we are supposing a lot from one very small photo!

 

Jeff

[cteno4]

A good point, and there's another reason for replacement holders!  It'd be fun to watch the holders pivot on a model.  I've noticed that the rails are only clamped down on one car, so they're free to flex on the other.  There's also a chain around them in the middle, roughly between the two cars.

I thought they pivoted as well, but I looked at a lot of the videos and you can't see the clamp visibly pivoting (although the it would not need to very much) and I when you see the empty clamp it shows a pretty skimpy bottom crosspiece right at the bed of the car. With all that weight I'm not sure how well that single cross piece would hold up keeping flat and not bowing. Also hard on the pivot if you loaded/unloaded from one side with all the weight on one side.

 

I was wondering if the rails just slide around a bit w.in the limits of the two cradles and the clamp does not hold totally tight but just enough to keep rails for shifting much vertically.

 

But again the videos don't show the views to really clearly see all this.

 

Jeff

[cteno4]

That's just a nasty rumor started by Toni ;-) I think that 3D printing hasn't quite arrived, and wish that somehow SW could make it easy (ier) for designers to offer multi-media products / kits, as 3DP is often not the best solution for everything.

I do have some admin / ethical issues with SW, such as allowing people to list products with misleading renderings that they haven't even test printed themselves.

 

Charles I know you have issues with shapeways, but again I think you have wishes for them to do a business that would just not work. It's just a simple business model of a printing service. Send in a file and they will print it for you. That been expanded by them shoring the files and allowing others to print them as well and allowing for a commission to be paid to the designer. That's it.

 

If they get into doing validation of stuff it gets them into a very untenable position between designer and customer and will drive costs way up.

 

If they try to sell kits produced by designers it will be a huge mess to assemble the kits, instructions and they get deep into the point above.

 

You just want way more here than can be done in a successful business model as you can't account for how to pay for these costs w,o things being so high priced it would not sell.

 

The ethics are its buyer beware, it's up to you to decide if someone's offerings look good enough to pay for. Again it would fall apart if shapeways tries to be Solomon. If you don't want to take the risk don't.

 

I've worked with a lot of service bureaus in my career, printers, photo printers, sign shops, fabricators, metal shops and it's a very tough and narrow business. shapeways has already widened the business and it's not clear if even that can work in the long run well w.o adding a lot more to it!

 

Know this is a dead horse but if you bring it up I only think it fair it be countered in place.

 

> I'm glad I saved a bundle of flex track I picked up way back at $1 per piece! I can strip it for rail! But might be better to just get some code 40 rail to make a load more prototypical.

 

I just sent a message to Peter at N Scale Kits asking what the minimum radius is for their rail without derailing the carrier cars. I'm curious - you call it rubber, but they describe it as plastic?

What radius do you think you'd need to get the code 40 to bend without pushing the KiYa off the rails?

 

Sorry yeah I realized when I used the word "rubber" it was wrong, but did not use plastic as most take that as being stiff! It's very flexible plastic. I'm sure it will go around a pretty tight radius, but with a dozen or so of them all having to slide easily in every snaking configuration I'm sure it could be a combination/permutation on how well it will run on the layout. I remember seeing a few articles on it when I bought it last year and there were some layouts where it looked like it worked well, but I think their curves were at least over 350mm radius. When I got it was thinking like 6 cars worth, not 13!

 

In thinking of the weight of using regular metal rail in the kiya it might be too heavy at the density used for the little motor, so the flex plastic rail might be better glued up. Plastic printing would work to make a unified load but would not be cheap, it's a decent volume of plastic for ultra detail quality.. Of course a mould run could make scads, but probably not a desired thing to have gobs of rail for anything but this more unique purpose of a carrier train or storage yard.

 

Jeff

Edited January 2, 2016 by cteno4

[velotrain]

I don't think it's just a rail still attached as the foreground end is up 3 high and its winch is already detached! The rear winch seems to be in the process of getting detached. My thought is they just had to get a piece of rail out of the way for a bit and put it up on top instead of on the ground. But we are supposing a lot from one very small photo!

 

 

I'm going to stick with my theory that they do some wrangling after the winch lets go, mostly because I just can't imagine the mechanized movement being able to stack the rails as tightly and uniformly as the end views show.  I realize the rail is heavy, but that could be why the winch releases it higher than the ultimate position, so gravity can help with the final placement. 

 

I suspect that the clamp is indeed securely tightened, and I've also seen evidence of side clamps for the two layers.  This allows for horizontal play at the other end.  I am a bit surprised that there isn't a more loosely tightened clamp on the other car, as they're relying on gravity a lot.  If there ever was an accident / derailment, there could be a real mess, as I'm not sure the one clamp would be enough to keep the load in the cars with that much force in play.

 

Well, I could say that you were the one who first mentioned Shapeways, not me.

 

I realize it's great for guys like Toni - as he recently said, he just designs the product and then doesn't need to do anything.

 

Outside of my thoughts on the company itself, I mostly find it disappointing that we're not seeing multimedia kits - say 3DP combined with etched elements.  Let each technology do what it does best, and don't try to push it to do things it simply can't do at this stage.  Perhaps buy the instructions, etched and other elements from the designer, then it's up to you to order the 3DP component.

 

>  If they get into doing validation of stuff it gets them into a very untenable position between designer and customer and will drive costs way up.

 

I have to disagree with this, as it seems to me that it could be automated quite simply.  Just don't allow a designer to list a product for sale until there has been a successful test print, or at least a test print.  I gather that sometimes customers discover that there's a problem with an individual printing, so clearly SW doesn't do a whole lot of checking before something goes out the door.

 

I recognize that it's caveat emptor, and I no longer order anything unless there's an actual product photograph - not just a rendering.  I am also much more willing to buy from designers who provide adequate supporting text, and ignore those who seem to have no customer sense.

Edited January 2, 2016 by velotrain

[katoftw]

I recognize that it's caveat emptor, and I no longer order anything unless there's an actual product photograph - not just a rendering.  I am also much more willing to buy from designers who provide adequate supporting text, and ignore those who seem to have no customer sense.

I'd just like to point out that sometimes it is not the manufacturers fault for lack of pictures.  Since said Kiya 97 (and most Japanese n scale) is aimed at the Japanese marketplace.  The online retailers are a bit lax with good pictures as most potential buyers will just go to the manufacturer website for better pictures.  No good for us non Japanese speaking westerners.  But it isn't that difficult to bypass the problem with some creative google searches.

 

 

Website:- http://world-kougei.com/hpgen/HPB/categories/1936.html

 

And for something a little extra on the side...  From the same peeps that brought you Otsu 600/700 lit Tomytec models...

 

 

Website:- http://mokei-ya.cocolog-nifty.com/blog/2012/08/post-2dea.html

Edited January 2, 2016 by katoftw

[velotrain]

> The online retailers are a bit lax with good pictures as most potential buyers will just go to the manufacturer website for better pictures.  No good for us non Japanese speaking westerners.

 

Not at all - we just go to Hobby Search!

 

Great find on the Mokei lighting unit - too bad HS doesn't list it on the KiYa97 page as a recommended product.

Any idea where we "non Japanese speaking westerners" can buy it?

[katoftw]

With regards to pictures.  While Hobby Search is the best for providing pictures compared to the rest.  I still would give them a "C" or "pass" for effort.  They were much better years ago.

 

with regards to mokei-ya products.  They keep all their stuff in-house.  I would get someone like Nariichi-san or Dave-san to be a proxy buyer for you.  Then send it over in your next combined order.

 

Bear in mind they can be expensive.  I'm pretty sure the Tomytec Otsu 600/700 kits are 5,000 yen each.  Then I thought to myself, I've I do one consist, then I'll have to do them all.  And I'll have 9 in total in a few months. haha

Edited January 2, 2016 by katoftw

[cteno4]

Charles,

 

Just checking a test print has been done says nothing of the outcome. But I guess it does say at least it's been tried.

 

A service bureau like this is hard as garbage in can mean garbage out or the service went wrong. It's always a dance with them to see who messed up. Shapeways is pretty good about helping when things go bad. They refunded half the price on one item I had printed that had a printing problem (and this car had been printed many times before and I was told about it for someone else that had already printed it successfully). Turns out it was a super risky printing design on the roof that had very little support. Really was not shapeways fault, but they were willing to help. In the end I could just do the roof and supports with styrene fine.

 

I think we will see more mixed media kits here as folks get use to the technologies. Lasercutting metal has also added a new thing to etched metal as they can do very constant etching as well as cutting. Of course it's been a boon to paper crafting as well. Just will take time for these bits to all be pulled together by a single manufacturer. It takes different expertise, design, sourcing, q/a, etc to do each so that's more work for the company as well. Adding a new dimension to your company production process costs money and is risky, so it will take time. World kogei seems to be going there now with moulded plastic and etched metal, similar to their other etched metal and cast metal models, but they seem to be bringing the price down which is great to see. So I think you will see more eventually. As you say the hybrid approach probably can bring the best model, but it comes at a cost so they just need to figure out ways aroun that.

 

I keep hoping sankei will do some small detail 3D printed parts, but I can see that is a whole other production path and then more packaging and instructions. May also up set the market of those who just like the pure papercraft which I think they sell a lot to. Does leave the option for the garage shops to do grade up bits like there are for other model train stuff, just going to be marketing and distribution challenged for the tiny shops.

 

The clamps don't look like they are super tight and could easily allow the small bit of rotation of the rails. I think it could be to just hold them in position as a stack. It's hard to see how much clearance there is on the sides there. Allowing them to move a bit may actually put less stress on the two cars and why they only put the clamp on one car. But I thinke we are just making guesses here from a few small photos and videos.

 

You have never moved any rail or large hunks of metal around I think! I worked on tearring up a marine railway when I was young. It was about 25' sections and moving them was a chore and dangerous! I ended up cutting a lot of sections in half or third with the torch as it was just too dangerous to get them moved a few feet to where we could get the chains and winch on them for removal. Using an electric winch actually is very easy and accurate. I've used them in the shop with large hunks of beam and it's pretty easy. there was a metal shop next to where I worked in high school that I would give an extra pair of hands help when they had big stuff the two usual guys needed help with. Was a good trade as I could pop in and sue the shop when I needed to weld or cut something!

 

Jeff

[cteno4]

nice find kato!

 

Looks like they routed out the open spaces in the clamp in the one picture with the rail there.

 

Btw it would not be hard to make the two cradles to swivel a bit of that is needed in the model with rail in there.

 

Jeff

Edited January 2, 2016 by cteno4