Modeling Japanese industry?

[marknewton]

Great photo!

 

I'm always impressed by how atmospheric some of these B/W images are. There's some very skilled photographers in Japan.

 

Cheers,

 

Mark.

[bikkuri bahn]

Yes, I like these type of photgraphs where the picture taker consciously pulled back from the primary object (the train) to take in the whole scene as a person viewing with only his eyes would, and also used a higher vantage point (the roof of a freight car? impossible nowadays but probably common/tolerated then).  It helps that the railway scene just had more detail in a "railroady" sense then than now.  I see this esthetic in other railway photographers, such as Jim Shaughnessy.

[cteno4]

And black and white allows for such ambience! It captures so much emotion that color does not. Probably allows the imagination to have some fun.

 

Jeff

[yakumo381]

This zinc works and associated shunting would be an interesting basis for an industrial themed layout:

 

[nah00]

Since this thread is relevant to my interests...

 

I actually do *try* to model 'modern' Japanese industry. I don't really follow a specific prototype but was able to fit 2 container yards (albeit small ones and only one is a run-through yard), an oil refinery (combination of the Walthers kit, the Tomy gas refinery, and some various other N scale industrial buildings) that serves a small LPG dealer, heating oiling dealer, and runs JP-8 tank cars to an 'airbase'. Both container yards also have a spur for Wamus and I shift them back and forth. I have a small lumber mill/yard that I serve by boxcar even though in reality this is impratical. Probably going to add a cement plant so I have somewhere for my cement cars and open hoppers to go but I need to figure out the space first. Also have a few Kirin covered hoppers but no brewery...

 

As for container cranes I just use forklifts. Also always wondered if these yard are electrified or not? Seems like that would be a disaster waiting to happen.

 

I also have a bunch of Showa era cars I let my D51 or Type 9600 pull around occaisionally, funny seeing that running next to an E-6 or E-7.

[kvp]

 

Also always wondered if these yard are electrified or not? Seems like that would be a disaster waiting to happen.

Some are, especially the ones that are served by electric locomotives. There are two defenses against accidents. One is to switch off the overhead power during the loading on the affected section, while the other is to add overhead only to the tracks that are used by the road electrics and shunt to the loading tracks with diesel power. Also, the wires can be lifted as high as the collectors allow (to the top of the allowed height range), leaving more space below to move stuff around.

[nah00]

 One is to switch off the overhead power during the loading on the affected section, while the other is to add overhead only to the tracks that are used by the road electrics and shunt to the loading tracks with diesel power.

Ok so using a DE-10 to pull them in and out of the yards isn't too unusual. Most of my freight is pulled by diesel though (DD-51 and DF-200).

 

Also on the subject of electrification, I'm assuming there's NONE of that around loading facilities for tank cars? LPG and JP-8 aren't exactly the things you want to have around electricity.

Edited November 29, 2015 by nah00

[velotrain]

Here's some very serious Japanese industry, that would be a nightmare to model - or, the work of a lifetime.

 

I can't tell if there's any track down there or not.

 

[nah00]

It does have rail service, If you look at the bottom right between the warehouse and the tumbler/furnace (can't tell which, the long cylindrical thing) you can see a line. This may just be a plant line though but something this large should be connected to a railroad unless it's right next to the minehead/quarry or recieves everything by sea. Does it say what kind of plant this is? Giant glass factory is all I can figure.

[velotrain]

I saw that line but couldn't be sure if it was a pipe or a rail.

 

I'd had the image for years and have no idea what it is - someone in Japan might.

You can see that there's an offshore connection for ships - whether incoming or outgoing.

 

I mostly just love the mass of forms and all the connections.

[kvp]

http://sen59.jp/blog/?p=4209

 

It looks like a cement plant with a conveyor belt to the mine and shipping the products by ship. The larger image on the site shows that those parallel lines are the railings of the walkway and enter the building at the height of the 1st floor. It's a very impressive plant. It does look like that it did have rail though in the past:

Kamiiso station: A 500 m spur line served the Japan Cement Co factory from 1915 to 1989. A private 6.6 km line transported limestone to the factory from 1921 to 1956, being electrified at 600 V DC from 1922. A second 3.4 km line to a limestone quarry operated from 1949 until replaced by a conveyor belt in 1973.

[velotrain]

I had no idea cement plants were / needed to be that complex.

[nah00]

It might serve some orher function too, limestone is used in a lot of things so while it's main product may be cement it may also turn out other things. Most of the complexity seems to be from air cleaners and scrubbers, you wouldn't see anything similar on a US plant.

 

Also I wonder how much it costs to run a 3.4 km conveyor belt.

Edited November 29, 2015 by nah00

[railsquid]

I saw that line but couldn't be sure if it was a pipe or a rail.

 

I'd had the image for years and have no idea what it is - someone in Japan might.

You can see that there's an offshore connection for ships - whether incoming or outgoing.

 

I'm pretty sure this is the Taiheiyo Kamiiso Cement Plant on Hokkaido (Google satellite view), the what looks like an island opposite is actually Hakodate. If so, it had its own plant railway, apparently until 1989.

[katoftw]

Some are, especially the ones that are served by electric locomotives. There are two defenses against accidents. One is to switch off the overhead power during the loading on the affected section, while the other is to add overhead only to the tracks that are used by the road electrics and shunt to the loading tracks with diesel power. Also, the wires can be lifted as high as the collectors allow (to the top of the allowed height range), leaving more space below to move stuff around.

Can you give examples?  All I have ever seen is the loading and unloading section of rails has no overheads.  Some yards are designed to allow an electric to be backed up really close.  And some require a diesel shunter.  But never seen a loading section with overheads.

[kvp]

(the M250 super rail cargo is an EMU, so you can't back it into a non electrified siding on its own power as the power cars are distributed and also carry containers)

[JR 500系]

HHhmmm... what interests me in the video is: Is the video made during an exhibition or a show or something? Normally kids aren't allowed this close to a forklift container operation...

[railsquid]

"お客様感謝祭", so yes.

[marknewton]

Can you give examples?  All I have ever seen is the loading and unloading section of rails has no overheads.  Some yards are designed to allow an electric to be backed up really close.  And some require a diesel shunter.  But never seen a loading section with overheads.

 

Some Showa-era examples:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Other photos I've got in books or magazines show goods shed platforms with overhead on the Nagoya Railway, Fujikyu Railway and Hokuriku Railway.

 

Cheers,

 

Mark.

Edited December 2, 2015 by marknewton

[kvp]

It's british H0 though, but the video shows a nice looking working container crane:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZPrP0s26qY

(they are cheating a bit though, as the containers are lifted with an electromagnet and not grabbed mechanically)

 

I still think this is completly doable for N scale (of course for experienced modellers only) and only need 3 DC spool motors under the board and an electromagnet (back and forth, side by side, up and down + grab).

 

ps: On the second photo, the overhead ends right at the gate of the building, but the rest are very good examples, both tramway and mainline.

[velotrain]

Good photos Mark, but I believe that katoftw was asking specifically about container loading facilities / operations where there is overhead wire on the track being used.

 

I'm sure that a few of these rural freight houses might have used a forklift, but suspect that a lot of it was still done by hand.

 

Related to industry is this Aussie N-Trak module, which I think is the most scenically interesting one that I have seen.  It's also a very creative use for the Greenmax engine sheds and the Kato engine shed interior structure - in fact, I ordered one just for the interior after seeing these photos.  It's too bad that it isn't available separately for bashing purposes.

 

http://ttrak.wikidot.com/anr-workshop

 

Speaking of automated cranes, here's a short video by a guy who motorized a Dapol OO gantry crane, and also a view of the components he uses.  I've asked him just what the benefit is of using a "sucker magnet" vs. just turning off the power to the electromagnet, but he hasn't responded.

 

 

 

 

 

In the video that kvp linked to, I think I'd have to say that I enjoy watching the bridge moving even more than the crane itself.

 

I've also wondered if it would be possible to create some sort of take-up spool (spring wound?) for the EM wires.  Looking at proto images, some EM cranes do have the wire(s) mounted similarly, but others have a method of routing them via the boom.  I imagine one issue for both model and proto is not rolling / unrolling the electrical wire too many time, so as to weaken it.  There are some great Youtube videos showing scrap yard cranes at work.  I was curious to see them often unloading the bed of a pickup truck, and was surprised that they didn't just grab hold of the truck itself - unless it uses aluminum bodywork.

 

Edited December 1, 2015 by velotrain

[kvp]

The so called 'sucker magnet' is like a normally on magnet, meaning no power is required to hold onto the items. This means the electromagnet is only energised to drop things. Because the drop pulse can be very short, the magnet can be rated for a much higher current than what would be available with continous operation. This allows a smaller size magnet or heavier objects. Tomix turnouts work similarly, with the permanent magnet holding the position by pulling towards the iron cores and the turnout coils only used to push/pull the permanent magnet to the other position. For a container crane, this means if the containers have static magnets in them (strong neodymium ones), then it's possible to use a small electromagnet, wound on a larger iron core to drop them. This also means much thinner power wires and less heat from the coil that could damage plastic parts.

 

 

I was curious to see them often unloading the bed of a pickup truck, and was surprised that they didn't just grab hold of the truck itself - unless it uses aluminum bodywork.

One trick is variable magnet power. If the operator gives enough juice to lift the smaller parts that are closer to the magnet, without setting it strong enough to lift the whole truck, then it will work.

[velotrain]

One trick is variable magnet power. If the operator gives enough juice to lift the smaller parts that are closer to the magnet, without setting it strong enough to lift the whole truck, then it will work.

 

That makes sense.  In the videos you can see the crane operator very slowly lowering the magnet, and then the small pieces actually jump up to it.

[cteno4]

Ha! Flashback for me! As a kid I grew up next to a scrapyard and so much time was spent watching the scrap crane worked that why older and just got into n scale I did exactly what this guy did with the old pola gantry crane!

 

Yes you can't really do an effective enough wound electromagnet to pickup and hold stuff while swaying around in n scale. I never got the spoiler electromagnet small enough though.

 

There were a few challenges I never got totally solved before it got too frustrating (hey I was like 13 at the time).

 

1. Getting the spoiler electro magnet small. I fiddled with this a bit with different cores and windings but still they were too big for scale. I had a sucker magnet that was about scale for the whole magnet but then with the spoiler things got huge. Nowadays a rare earth magnet at like 4x1mm could pick up enough scrap and then build a spoiler on top or below

 

2. Power wires for magnets were not supple enough. I used fine magnet wire,mbut a n scale it really pushed the magnet around a lot and would not bend gracefully.

 

3. Jumpieness, it was hard to make the geared motor I had crawl and every movement even at the slowest I could get caused the magnet to swing around a lot when rotating and lifting. Using a little pwm power source might help a lot here.

 

4. Keeping the lift wire taught was a challenge at n scale. Just not quite enough weight to keep it nice and taught, I used the thinnest and supplest silk thread I could find and experimented quite a bit with different materials.

 

In the end I gave up on the scrap metal pile and just had a large bundle of pipe (brass tubing with metal rod in it for weight) and a single fixed pull you to lift it so that the pipe would not want to rotate much (hook and lower pully were affixed to the harness that was fine wire) when swung around. Was fun to just be able to wow folks with the crane lift and rotate!

 

N scale is tough for this as it's just a tad light for most stuff to function properly and keep it near scale. But it's doable if you were to really go at it I bet. I've always wanted to get back to it, especially after seeing that z scale Guy's stuff! (Btw no word back from them about if the videos are out to the public somewhere.)

 

Cheers

 

Jeff

[marknewton]

Good photos Mark, but I believe that katoftw was asking specifically about container loading facilities / operations where there is overhead wire on the track being used. I'm sure that a few of these rural freight houses might have used a forklift, but suspect that a lot of it was still done by hand.

 

Ah yeah, modern stuff. Something I know nothing about!  :)

 

As for forklifts, I've seen them in lots of photos, but also a lot of manual handling as well:

 

 

Cheers,

 

Mark.