Modeling Japanese industry?

[velotrain]

 

Here is an even larger japanese variant: http://www.ako-minpo.jp/data/d00031/p3101_0.jpg

 

It looks like the large Japanese transformer is mounted on a Schnabel car.  I just sold my brass HO version produced by Overland - built in Korea.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[velotrain]

_{Since there has been some discussion of operations, and some are apparently not familiar with the concept, I thought I'd give links to a couple of videos giving two views of what this can be.  The first one is a HO layout with some "allegedly" intentionally poorly laid track, as evidenced by all the rocking done by the trains that pass over it.  The premise is that some loaded covered hoppers are pulled from the loading bay, and then some empties are collected for loading, but this operation is delayed by an intermodal train passing by on the main - where the track doesn't seem to be a whole lot better.}

 

 

_{This next one may also involve poor track, as there are derailments, but it may also be a case of inadequately weighted cars.  In any event, I think we can dismiss this based on the ambitiousness of the modeler's design.  This shows a O-14 mining line dumping into a bin, from which a conveyor lifts the coal and drops it into a 1:43 RC truck.}

 

 

_{The following video (on youtube) shows a more drawn-out version of the above, and a better-behaved train.}

 

 

[katoftw]

I still don't think this isn't achievable with the products available.  Engines shed can be turned into anything.  Greenmax and Tomytec both offer industrial kits.  Greenmax has their factory which is similar to their maintenence shed.  All component as well.  Lots of pipes.  Tomytec has the stuff exampled earlier and also 2 other large gas tanks and chinneys available.

 

Greenmax Factory:- http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/search?typ1_c=104&cat=&state=&sold=0&sortid=0&searchkey=greenmax+factory

 

Tomytec tanks:- http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/search?typ1_c=104&cat=rail&state=&sold=0&sortid=0&searchkey=tomytec+tank

 

Tomytec Chimmeys:- http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/search?typ1_c=104&cat=rail&state=&sold=0&sortid=0&searchkey=tomytec+smokestack

 

Tomytec complex:- http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/search?typ1_c=104&cat=&state=&sold=0&sortid=0&searchkey=tomytec+complex

 

If you cannot make a industrial wasteland from those.  I'd be shocked.

Edited November 15, 2015 by katoftw

[katoftw]

Here: http://www.google.hu/maps/@35.5296389,139.7666135,16z/data=!3m1!1e3

(and apparently has rail access with a dedicated spur line with a small yard and a track going into each assembly building and what appears to be a chemical plant next door and all on an island with a road/rail bridge)

That has blue taki wagons lined up in that small yard with weather protection.  probably another fuel depot like the one i example eariler.

[velotrain]

Greenmax Factory:- http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/search?typ1_c=104&cat=&state=&sold=0&sortid=0&searchkey=greenmax+factory

 

HS shows most of this as Terminated or Long Sold Out.

[katoftw]

They have just been announced to be re-released.  All the terminated products are just old prices and stock numbers.  If you cannot get them from HS, then someone else will have them.  AmiAmi has it available for back/pre-order, and cheaper than HS:-

 

http://slist.amiami.com/top/search/list?s_keywords=greenmax+factory&submit=Search&pagemax=40

 

model train plus also has 1 of each in stock

Edited November 15, 2015 by katoftw

[Das Steinkopf]

This is a terminal in Hiroshima which is a major city. Look at the staging lines not much there. As for structures not much to model.

 

 

If you go to Yamaguchi west of Hiroshima you will find a smaller terminal with even less "operations". I guess it depends on the definition of operations.

I think it is different for us in the States

 

Inobu

Compared to the "States" anything would be small, Hiroshima freight yard deals with quite a sizable amount of traffic especially when you consider it is one of the smaller cities in Japan with a population of just over one million people. I took a number of photos of it when I went there capturing quite a number of things including a long freight train with an EF210-100 on the lead with a brand new EF210-300 on the rear as a banker, I know these trains are small by US standards but most Japanese freight trains only have one locomotive on them, multiple unit trains are used on some lines but that is on ones with heavily graded sections. In the photos you can see quite a substantial amount of containers as well as at least 3 FD-300 Top Loaders and 6 FD-115 Forklifts, there is also a DE10 shunting some of the Koki's in the background.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[inobu]

Das,

 

You are missing the point. Your last three sentences sums up my point. Of the three components (FD300,FD115 and DE10) you pointed out, How many of those operations can be emulated on a model layout? Only 1 the shunting. Because of the effiency of the JR freight system and the size of there yards that is not much to do in way of staging.

 

The dynamics of a yard in the U.S. Staging and shunting plays a larger role in yard activity based on the volume of trains in the system. This provides a broader range of shunting and staging operations compared to that in Japan.

 

Inobu

[velotrain]

Inobu - I'm much more interested in the individual industrial structures themselves, than the overall freight operations in any country.  As modelers, we can create whatever era and scenario we want.

 

Since prototype operations are as they are, I think it would be more significant to say that there are many more modelers in the US, along with the UK and Europe, who feel that freight movements add to the diversity and operating enjoyment of a layout.  These have been reduced in the prototype in the US, as elsewhere, and I think that is why you see such a large percentage of US and UK modelers choosing an earlier - and more "romantic" if you will - era to model.  In the UK many model the "pre-grouping" era, and may in fact look back fondly on BR times as more interesting than the current situation.  The situation in Japan may be that the contemporary passenger trains are such a large part of daily life for almost everyone, that few are interested in modeling an earlier era in order to create more diverse operations, and most are content to dispatch a lengthy series of shinkansen on their way.

 

To some extent England has a housing situation that shares aspects of Japan's; with no home basements for permanent layouts, many Brits either opt for working / running on a club layout, and/or building a small shunting shelf layout at home.  In Japan this becomes a temporary circular layout on the floor, or possibly a table.  What seems to vary the most is the preferred operational style, with one group wanting a more hands-on, involved approach, while the other is more interested in train watching.  I'm no sociologist, but I gather that the daily work life in Japan is quite intense, which might create a scenario where the Japanese modeler is more interested in relaxing with their trains after a long, hard day.  Westerners might be more likely to view it as an active, creative activity, an arena where they have more freedom and control than they did over their work day.

 

Some modelers may view their trains / layouts as mental relaxation, while others are in pursuit of a mental challenge.  Should anyone interpret it that way, I am not trying to define stereotypes here, but offering possible explanations for what seem to be real differences in approach.

[inobu]

You pretty much answered your own post.

 

Inobu

[kvp]

 

How many of those operations can be emulated on a model layout? Only 1 the shunting. Because of the effiency of the JR freight system and the size of there yards that is not much to do in way of staging.

You can shunt with a locomotive or move the containers by hand (even to moving trucks), but if you start adding industries, then you can emulate lots of tasks.

 

By a locomotive:

-shunt the cars from the loading area to the staging area

-shunt the outgoing cars from the staging area onto the freight train that came to pick them up (insert the cars at the right place)

-shunt the incoming cars from the freight train to the staging area, cut them out from the middle if needed

-shunt the cars from the staging area to the loading area

-move the freight train from one siding to the next one, where a different customer has different cars to add and remove

 

By hand:

-load the cars at the loading area with the outgoing containers

-unload the cars at the loading area from the incoming containers

-move the containers between two trains standing on the terminal tracks or between the various piles and trucks

 

The latter is more interesting with a club layout, lots of players and industrial locations (with each container having a unique id and source/destination), but it can be done at home by placing the manual loading track at the edge of the layout, so the HoG type container loader can do its work without knocking anything over. The idea is to add lots of small yards on the layout instead of one big one and try to move the freight between them. (an alternative for small layouts is to have a single small yard with various industries connected (each with its own shunter) and only serve one at each 'loop' of the freight train) It's possible to do all the shunting with the shunter or use the mainline locomotive to move half of the train, so the shunter has to extract/insert its own rake only and doesn't have to move nearly half of the cars to get a few out from the middle. Of course if you emulate branchline traffic, then the road locomotive may have to do all the shunting to the staging area because the local tractor can only move a few cars to the loading area.

Edited November 15, 2015 by kvp

[inobu]

KVP,

 

There is a difference in creating a list of operation verses being able to perform them. If you are ok with trying to uncouple cars by hand and shunting them...I guess that's ok. Not sure if you have the koki's but those containers are not too secure.

 

I don't like touching the trains after they are placed on the rail. It feels like playing with Thomas trains to me.

 

Try doing what you are suggesting and you will see what I'm pointing out.

 

Inobu

[Krackel Hopper]

Kato - I don't know exactly what that plant is supposed to represent, but I find it rather silly.  I don't know the implied function of the two tall towers, but otherwise there are two storage tanks, two cooling towers , and truck/rail distribution platforms - apparently the same.  It is much too small to represent any sort of refinery - even by model railroad standards.  No doubt many are willing to put this on their layout just as it is, but I certainly wouldn't.

 

This HO refinery by Plastruct

 

 

http://www.hobbylinc.com/plastruct-petro:chemical-refinery-kit-ho-scale-model-railroad-accessory-1008?source=froogle&gclid=CjwKEAiA1JuyBRCogJLz4J71kj0SJADsd6QRBM8EY1Pk8MLlf8emEyIhyRI9If49zGSZY3D0iHrEOBoCvAPw_wcB

 

 

is a little more realistic, but not by much.  The piping seems more realistic - at least more plentiful.  The one from Walthers isn't any better:

 

 

https://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/933-3705

 

 

but at least it has some interesting ladders and platforms.  I think it is possible to build a credible distribution center, but anything larger should not be attempted on a small layout.  Here in the US there is a group interested in modeling the steel industry, and they have some LARGE and quite realistic models - I can dig up some photos if anyone is interested.  They often start with the Walther's kits, but then go way beyond those.

 

Please don't take this rant personally - my unhappiness is with the manufacturers who try to represent something that they cannot, so they just throw a bunch of stuff together (like Tomytec) in the hopes that consumers will buy it.

 

For starters, the Walthers North Island Refinery kit you mention is roughly 5"x 8" in size.  The Tomytec kit Katoftw mentioned is 12"x 16".. so nearly twice the size, and that is just the basic kit.  This "series" contains kits A - G allowing you to add addition pipes, distillation towers, cooling towers, containment towers (2 different types) as well as an expansion kit for the whole thing.

http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10138707

 

Modeling is all about compromise.  As you mentioned, I have seen pictures of some of those people working to model a prototypical steel mill.. and that single facility will take up their entire room.  A lot of stuff manufacturers make is designed to imply there is more just off the scene.  I can't imagine the space required to model a North Dakota coaling operation.  However, you can sneak the Walther's western coal flood loader into a corner of the layout and it helps imply that your train tracks are running just beside such a massive facility.

 

I don't think Tomytec "threw a bunch of stuff together".. they selected prominent pieces from Japan's natural gas facilities and provided those pieces in a modular kit.  They did not try to reproduce a full blown refinery, if anything they are trying to simplify a distribution facility.

 

A real quick search provided me with some pictures of scenes you can model with this kit.  I'm sure if I searched further, I could find something even closer to the Tomytec kit.

 

 

[kvp]

 

Try doing what you are suggesting and you will see what I'm pointing out.

This is pretty much what most fremo freight operating sessions are about. If you don't like to uncouple by hand, you can use remote uncouplers and if you don't like to touch the cars, you can choose ones that can be 'loaded and unloaded' without touching them. Good examples are classic boxcars and tank cars and i have both. You can even mod the containers and add magnets so you can take them off and stack them with a portal crane. (there are commercial N scale kits from some european manufacturers that have operating container cranes and it can be combined with a moving truck stopped next to the freight cars)

 

A nice setup, that is possible with current technology: (the most complex i can think of right now)

-a freight train arrives at a siding

-the train gets cut at a certain location (with a remote uncoupler track)

-a few cars are taken out by a shunter (DCC or cab control is required with more than one sections per track)

-and moved to a staging area

-the train recouples and leaves the siding

-a truck is stopped next to the crane

-the cars are moved under the crane

-the crane moves a container to the truck

-the truck leaves

-repeat the same N times, then the same again backwards to load the cars

-and attch them back into the freight train

 

This requires:

-one mainline locomotive

-one shunter

-some form of independent control (DCC or dual cab blocks)

-a moving container crane with an electromagnet (either 2 or 3 degrees of freedom with steel wire, screw or servo actuation)

-a moving truck with stop electromagnet(s) under the road

-and at least a two track siding, a headshunt and some mainline for the freight train to run

 

and you got yourself a working japanese freight operation with multi modal transportation...

[Krackel Hopper]

While both of those complexes are sprawling, I'm not sure that I'd say they are large.  Even with the sake factory, it's interesting that they don't show any rail connection, suggesting that the output isn't large enough to make it worthwhile.

 

You can always add a rail connection to change that.  The sake & miso kits are roughly 8" x 12".. 

 

Because they are modular in design, you could easily sneak in a Tomytec freight station like this one..

 

 

Obviously.. both the miso & sake facilities are modeling the old steam era.. so a freight facility like this for wamu's would work quite well.. However the other pictures you posted are showing much more modern facilities.. so I guess that depends on your modeling era..

[inobu]

KVP,

 

It is easy to type all the solutions. Actually modeling and doing it is a different story. You are just making a hypothetical list which goes beyond what is practical. Dreaming solutions are easy. Making it happen is the challenge.

 

Inobu

[kvp]

You are just making a hypothetical list which goes beyond what is practical. Dreaming solutions are easy. Making it happen is the challenge.

I don't really understand what do you mean with not practical. Running N scale model trains is not practical as there are easier things to do. Modelling japanese freight may not be as easy as running a yamanote line set on a loop, but it's doable without too much of a hassle. Shunting with remote uncouplers and two locomotives are not too hard. I would really like to know what do you consider as practical freight operations.

 

I've drawn a simple yard, with the siding and headshunts for the freight train in red and the storage and loading/unloading tracks in yellow. The dark red ones are the uncoupler tracks for handsfree shunting. (the freight train can make a cut without the help of the industrial switcher and the switcher only has to move the in and out rakes between the two sidings. The mainline remains unobstructed during all this. Actually i've seen similar arrangements on various youtube videos of the prototype. (the 'yard' is single track and the industry is just 2 stub tracks, with optional factory fence between the red and the yellow tracks and it can all be curled around the edge of a loop for a small home layout)

 

A good example for the road system: (the cars are running on tomix and faller bases)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TlvBdHx_eQ

Those modules are work in progress, very much like the half painted shunter loco that is used to do exactly what i described above and it's easy once you figure out how to do it efficiently. We used DCC for locomotive control, while rail and street turnouts are servo actuated and ran from an arduino.

Edited November 15, 2015 by kvp

[velotrain]

For starters, the Walthers North Island Refinery kit you mention is roughly 5"x 8" in size.  The Tomytec kit Katoftw mentioned is 12"x 16".. so nearly twice the size

 

Actually - that's more than four times the size.  My comment to Katoftw was that the combination of structures in the Tomytec set didn't seem realistic to me, and I'm not sure if adding more of them would help.  They appear to suggest a somewhat unlikely combination of processing, storage, and distribution.  If someone finds photos of a similar proto plant I'll happily admit that I am wrong.

 

The two examples you present are small, and I don't see any evidence of rail service.   

Although - I do like the "wrapping" on the one.

 

When I started the topic, I was simply saying that there seemed to be a very limited selection of industrial structures available, and I'm not sure I've seen anything since that changes my mind. 

[inobu]

You can even mod the containers and add magnets so you can take them off and stack them with a portal crane. (there are commercial N scale kits from some european manufacturers that have operating container cranes and it can be combined with a moving truck stopped next to the freight cars)

 

Why did you remove this comment you made?  I was just going to comment on exactly what it would take to develop something like that which would not be practical for the average modeler.

Just because you find it on the internet does not make it feasible for all. 

 

Your simplify things too much. Shunting with remote uncouplers and two locomotives are not too hard.  Its not too hard from the suggestion perspective try doing it yourself. It poses an entirely different challenge when you pull

out the hammer and nails to do it yourself.

 

Inobu

[katoftw]

pissing contest about what can and cannot be done regard japanese tracks.  i don't believe and system anywhere in the world makes model railroading ops any easier.

[velotrain]

Inobu - I don't think kvp's proposal is unreasonable.

 

After all, you're the one who said, "I don't like touching the trains after they are placed on the rail"

 

If you think his solution is too technical, you can install MT couplers for shunting, as thousands of N-scale modelers around the world have.

 

Even among those who use Kadee/MT, many prefer to use a wooden skewer for uncoupling, preferring the hand's-on approach.

[velotrain]

pissing contest about what can and cannot be done regard japanese tracks.  i don't believe and system anywhere in the world makes model railroading ops any easier.

 

Lots of urine there.

[cteno4]

Ok guys, please be polite here. 

 

BTW i just was talking with some Z gauge guys today at a show we were at and one guy showed me videos of his automated back hoe that was great and even more spectacular was a z scale coil loader crane that was completely automated and loaded coils then put the cover on the car! I was astounded. even the fork lift came in from the warehouse to deliver a coil to get loaded.

 

so you can do some amazing things if you really want to get at it.

 

jeff

[inobu]

Inobu - I don't think kvp's proposal is unreasonable.

 

After all, you're the one who said, "I don't like touching the trains after they are placed on the rail"

 

If you think his solution is too technical, you can install MT couplers for shunting, as thousands of N-scale modelers around the world have.

 

Even among those who use Kadee/MT, many prefer to use a wooden skewer for uncoupling, preferring the hand's-on approach.

I smile at your suggestion that his solutions is too technical....especially for me..... trust me I have worked on the things he has posed and I know the average modeler either don't have the equipment, time or skill to make it happen. so to post some of the solution is not a rational solution for most.

 

As far as the coupling is concerned. I don't have a problem as I developed an uncoupler that has less than %3 failure rate. It took me almost a year to develop but no manufacture has one that comes even close. That experience is why I even replied to your post. After testing it with the U.S. modeling system. I ventured into the Japanese modeling world. What I found out that their market is very much different than ours. The masses focus on the passenger segment more so the freight. The Japanese manufacture cater to their domestic market that is why you only see KatoUSA and not much else. This also provides the answer to your statement  I've just realized that there are virtually no structure kits available for Japanese rail-served industry,  ...... The bulk of the Japanese market is not into industrial buildings hence the lack of availability.

 

I'm not sure where or why the "pissing" contest came up/about. I'm just pointing out factors from observation. 95% of my posting are about things I have done or experienced the rest may be from something I witnessed. Other than that you may not hear from me.

 

Charles, you got your answer and it looks like kit bashing or scratch build. 

 

Inobu

[inobu]

This video shows just how mobile the uncouplers are. The ending proves you can place them anywhere.  :)

 

and yes I love operations.

 

 

 

Inobu

Edited November 16, 2015 by inobu