Modeling Japanese industry?

[velotrain]

BTW i just was talking with some Z gauge guys today at a show we were at and one guy showed me videos of his automated back hoe that was great and even more spectacular was a z scale coil loader crane that was completely automated and loaded coils then put the cover on the car! I was astounded. even the fork lift came in from the warehouse to deliver a coil to get loaded.

 

OK, Jeff - you can't get away with saying that and not providing links!

[velotrain]

This video shows just how mobile the uncouplers are. The ending proves you can place them anywhere.  :)

 

Before anyone asks, MHC is a Material Handling Car, essentially an official Amtrak high-speed express car.

 

 

I'm curious - I don't see anything that looks like physical couplers on the cars - are they solely magnetic?

 

I noticed a bit of hunting and pecking on the second MHC drop, similar to what is often experienced with Kadees.

 

Good luck with marketing your uncoupler.

[inobu]

Before anyone asks, MHC is a Material Handling Car, essentially an official Amtrak high-speed express car.

 

 

I'm curious - I don't see anything that looks like physical couplers on the cars - are they solely magnetic?

 

I noticed a bit of hunting and pecking on the second MHC drop, similar to what is often experienced with Kadees.

 

Good luck with marketing your uncoupler.

"Hunting and pecking"  LOL 

[cteno4]

sorry the video he showed appears not to be public yet. I'll email him and see if he will be letting it public soon. It was amazing! The other club members were praising the guy's abilities and we're glad he recently joined their club.

 

Jeff

[inobu]

Thanks Jeff, you  kinda of substantiated what I was trying to convey. Its easy to say make a "Z scale loader" but actually making it is another thing. Think about what it took for the guy to accomplish it. in order to make some of those parts you need equipment capable of creating the components. The equipment will cost you $10K, tooling another $2500.00 software another $1000.00 by the time you add the fixtures you are looking at $20k 

 

This guy Michal Zalewski does really good work. This is a mold he created for a gear set. It takes a lot of knowledge, experience, time and equipment.

 

 

 

I would like to see that forklift. Some people amaze me with their abilities.

 

Inobu 

[velotrain]

This guy Michal Zalewski does really good work. This is a mold he created for a gear set. It takes a lot of knowledge, experience, time and equipment.

 

If that's the mold, it's going to create the opposite of what's shown as the final product.

 

Is it perhaps instead a master for making the mold?

[inobu]

I think you are arguing for the sake of arguing.

This is what katoftw stated eariler then you post this

 

If that's the mold, it's going to create the opposite of what's shown as the final product.

 

Is it perhaps instead a master for making the mold?

 

You can see the results in the images that the renshape material was machined in a fashion to create the gears, yet you want to post a comment stating the obvious. It appears that it is true that you

like to argue for the sake of arguing. LOL

 

It would be interesting to see your layout when it is done. 

 

Inobu

[kvp]

in order to make some of those parts you need equipment capable of creating the components. The equipment will cost you $10K, tooling another $2500.00 software another $1000.00 by the time you add the fixtures you are looking at $20k

Most of it is available off the shelf and cheap. Uncouplers are simple and cheap, both the mechanical and the magnetic kind. On the video i posted everyting is servo actuated, even the turnouts. It's the cheapest 3 usd servos you can get in a modell shop. Control is with an arduino mega. (check its servo demo for free software) While DCC is not common, it's not too hard to get two locomotives DDCed. The freight cars are rapido equipped as this is the default in Europe. If two random guys can do it (i only helped with the electronics), then it's not that hard. The only custom parts that were used are the hungarian bus and shunter shells on tomix, faller and minitrix bases.

 

I think it's even possible with the Tomix rail and road components only and by using analog control.

 

ps: Is it practical? Yes and imho fun.

[velotrain]

 yet you want to post a comment stating the obvious.

 

And here I thought I was questioning a statement that was clearly wrong.

 

You say argue - I say accuracy.

[inobu]

Most of it is available off the shelf and cheap. Uncouplers are simple and cheap, both the mechanical and the magnetic kind. On the video i posted everyting is servo actuated, even the turnouts. It's the cheapest 3 usd servos you can get in a modell shop. Control is with an arduino mega. (check its servo demo for free software) While DCC is not common, it's not too hard to get two locomotives DDCed. The freight cars are rapido equipped as this is the default in Europe. If two random guys can do it (i only helped with the electronics), then it's not that hard. The only custom parts that were used are the hungarian bus and shunter shells on tomix, faller and minitrix bases.

 

I think it's even possible with the Tomix rail and road components only and by using analog control.

 

ps: Is it practical? Yes and imho fun.

kvp, you don't even know what is being discussed and you write a huge dissertation. Instead of just googling and posting the first thing you find. read the discussion. We were talking about the creation of a working Z scale fork lift.

To get that kind of detail you need to have equipment. We were not talking about couplers in that portion of text.

 

INobu

[inobu]

And here I thought I was questioning a statement that was clearly wrong.

 

You say argue - I say accuracy.

LOL. I guess.

 

I don't think I can contribute to this thread anymore. I prefer to interact in a different fashion.

 

LIke I said I would really like to see your layout when its done. I'm sure you will apply your standards of accuracy

Inobu

Edited November 16, 2015 by inobu

[railsquid]

[kvp]

I know that it's just googling, but maybe someone still finds this interesting:

Z scale forklift:

the mechanism: (it's an rc servo mounted on a salvaged optical drive mech with a magnet on top)

 

The funny thing is that with a long enough arm for the magnet, it's possible to reach inside a parked boxcar (or flatcar) if the car has a flat enough bottom for the arm to reach under, doesn't have metal in the floor and the loading dock is level with its floor. Something very similar was done in the MiWuLa in H0 scale.

 

And the off the shelf container crane i was talking about:

 

Now combine this with a Faller moving container truck running on the Tomix moving bus roads and you are ready. (and no scratchbuilding was required)

 

ps: I'm sorry if i offended anyone with my ideas, but i tried to add enough examples this time. Most of these things are doable either simply (uncoupling and loading containers by hand), elegantly (buying the off the shelf equipment) or cheaply (using recycled parts and building it at home). The nice thing is that everyone can choose what they like or can afford. Stating that it's not worth the effort is very subjective.

Edited November 16, 2015 by kvp

[railsquid]

I know that it's just googling, but maybe someone still finds this interesting:

Z scale forklift:

 

I bet that can literally turn on a dime ;)

[cteno4]

This level of work really is only practical with a small subset of Modelers out there. It requires not lots of money but a lot of knowledge and skills in several aspects of modeling, machining, electronics, programming and patience! The chap at the show was not moulding his own parts (except for a couple of simple things), but using all off the shelf stuff mostly from rc servos and controllers, wire, screws, etc. he was quite cleaver, but the combination was remarkable! btw, this is not his I think at least the coil loading dock fork lift used just a servo and the forklift swung out on a 90 degree ark on an arm. I talked with him about magnets from under as I've fiddled with that a lot for animation ideas but he was not a fan as he found it way to jerky with z scale.

 

I do agree with kvp that there are a lot of bits that are ready made or easily adaptable that can be put together, but to get them to work decently in practice is a whole nother ballpark as inobu is pointing out. I've played with both the brawa terminal crane (I have one) and the fallen/tomytec bus system and while each are fun, getting them to work together well would be a challenge, not impossible, but a challenge. Automating the whole process would be a whole nother large challenge for most Modelers. Most Modelers are not programmers or very knowledgable on electrical engineering so doing ardunio or other computer control is going to be a large challenge and a whole nother hobby to get into, which for most is just not practical for them.

 

Let's keep remembering we all have different permutations of skill sets, knowledge and interests in what we want to do in the hobby and get out of it. And let's try to respect that.

 

Cheers

 

Jeff

[kvp]

I've played with both the brawa terminal crane (I have one) and the fallen/tomytec bus system and while each are fun, getting them to work together well would be a challenge, not impossible, but a challenge. Automating the whole process would be a whole nother large challenge for most Modelers. Most Modelers are not programmers or very knowledgable on electrical engineering so doing ardunio or other computer control is going to be a large challenge and a whole nother hobby to get into, which for most is just not practical for them.

I wasn't really speaking about automating it, just using them together, so the Tomix stop track stops the truck while the crane operator moves the containers over to the car. You can have several trucks standing behind each other on stop sections. (manual or remote) Just lay the Tomix road sections on top of the crane base if you don't want to build your own road.

 

For those who want to use servos, but don't want to program anything, there are servo controllers, which allow setting positions with potmeters and then selecting between them with conventional switches. That makes it very very easy. Actually peco has a more advanced one in a kit, called smartswitch. (http://www.peco-uk.com/product.asp?strParents=3309,3337&CAT_ID=3363&P_ID=18190) It can be used for turnouts, the Tomix road system and even for automating small things, like the small forklift you mentioned. Technology has made so much progress in the past few years, that there is only a minimal amount of knowledge required to build great things.

 

[cteno4]

yes it's all in how much you are into, and good at fiddling even without automation. To get the crane to release you usually have to bang it down pretty hard to get the clamping mech to release. This would be rough on dropping on a trailer,miss hard on the flatcars. The fallen crane is clunky in its action, but it is fun. The gear bar sticking up also is not great visually, but needed for the firm,moon swaying action to lift the containers. Could be done maybe with 4 lift threads and a couple of micro wires with an electromagnet, but that would be a major micro animation engineering project.

 

Hard to add the faller vehicle system to the container crane as there is not enough room to add the motor and battery to the tractor (steering would be tight as well with wheels close to the front). The faller semi uses the trailer to house the battery and motor, so you can't just pull off the container with the crane.

 

Again no one saying it's impossible, but it takes a bit of determination, skill, patience to even use these pieces even on their own. When you start combining them it just adds more issues.

 

Ha never saw the pico smart switch. I've seen a couple of servo controllers like this where you can set the range with pots, most were like $30 per circuit so not hav for 4 circuits for $60.

 

Jeff

[velotrain]

I know that it's just googling, but maybe someone still finds this interesting:

Z scale forklift:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqZD22qpukU

 

The video following this on youtube is a Z scale layout with better scenery than most N scale layouts.

[inobu]

OK, this is my last post....Really....I have knowledge on the developing side of things.

 

Here is what is happening. They stopped making these cranes because they were not "feasible" or practical in the development sense and bottom line profit.

 

The problem is the precision required to make the units work. The banging is required due to the loss of detail on the casting. In order for the company to recoupe the R&D dollars in the units they needed to sell so many

units. The cost of development drives up the unit cost. This in turn deterred the average modeler. In order to create a ROI (return on investment ) the manufacture need to bang these units out in the thousands. After so many runs the molds will start to fatigue and the components would lose there trueness. The fatigue is the flashing you find in the model. This flashing is what created the problem as it distorts the components. Customer complaints and returns and loss incurs. The product would then be discontinued and labeled unfeasible. 

 

If a manufacture discontinued a product due to difficulties how could the everyday modeler create the produce without the same type of precision equipment and expertise. I am not discouraging anyone to do anything. I'm only trying to show the "doable" has a list of things that one must have to become achievable. 

 

I can officially call this horse glue now at least for me. LOL

 

Inobu         

[cteno4]

The video following this on youtube is a Z scale layout with better scenery than most N scale layouts.

I've seen this too a lot. I think the fact you really need to focus the eyes down more when looking at Z scale dives folks to get into detailing more at least to the proper depth and consistency to make great impressions. Also more scene gets into your normal field of vision up close which may have something to do with it as well.

 

I've also noticed in person on a few that the feel "real" better than most larger scale layouts and I wonder if it's that there is more stuff in our normal depth of field at a foot or two that makes them pop more than larger scales--like a hyper focal photo. Might also be our mind's eye being able to block out everything else as there is a good hunk of scene in a field of view up for it to play with up close on z. Form much distance 4'+ z then sort of pops into looking more like.a tilt shifted image,

 

I love how the different scales play with our perception! We use to use this a lot in exhibit model building. Each type of presentation had its own model scale that really told the story. I did stuff from 1/400 scale up to 1/4 scale and some took full scale cardboard mockups until the questions could get answered or the concept in the client's mind well enough.

 

Jeff

[marknewton]

Do any Japanese modelers (any scale) do any shunting at industries as part of operation?

 

Showa-era freight operations are of great interest to me, and by extension so are rail-served industries. From what I've learned they were quite common during that period.

 

JNR freight operations were based on relay working between the big marshalling yards throughout the network. A train would be made up at one yard consisting of wagons headed in the same general direction, and travel to the next marshalling yard, only stopping at major intermediate yards along the way to drop off or pick up wagons as required. The big marshalling yards usually had goods sheds/freight houses to receive and despatch freight as well.

 

Distribution of wagons to and from smaller yards or stations along these routes would be handled in two ways. One was by trip trains - or as they were known in the US, turns - which would originate at a marshalling yard and run as far as a nominated destination, then return to their originating yard, handling traffic in both directions . The other method was by pick-up goods, which would run between two yards handling traffic in one direction only.

 

Distibution of wagons to and from private industrial sidings around big yards in urban areas would either be handled by the yard engines if the industries were close to the yard - which seems to have been the most common arrangement - or by trip trains in the larger urban areas such as Tokyo.

 

Big industrial customers away from urban areas were often served by dedicated trip trains, such as the well-known Ashidachi limestone trains:

 

 

Some features of JNR freight operations were quite similar to those in the UK and US. Customers without their own private sidings could despatch and receive freight via the goods sheds/freight houses that were located at stations and yards throughout the system. JNR yards had team tracks, open sidings that were used to load/unload goods wagons directly to and from road vehicles. Parcels and LCL were handled via Nippon Express, which had the same role as the Railway Express Agency in the US. Nippon Express also had a fleet of small diesel shunters/switchers that were hired out to larger industrial customers to shunt their sidings or in-plant trackage.

 

From a scenic perspective there is a lot of modelling potential. Even the smallest rural stations usually had a parcels office or goods shed, while the big marshalling yards featured massive freight houses and trans-shipment sheds. Nippon Express offices were located at many of the larger stations and yards, and their distinctive yellow trucks were seen everywhere.

 

As for rail-served industries with their own sidings, there was a great variety of arrangements depending on the nature of the goods being handled. This blog, which has been linked a number of times, has some interesting photos showing typical yard and private siding arrangements:

 

http://senrohaisenzu.cocolog-nifty.com/blog/2011/08/2011618-1-e8ff.html

 

Earlier in the thread there was mention of this heavy-duty flatcar:

 

 

It's not imaginary, its a ShiKi 1000, one of a fleet of cars owned and leased by Nippon Express. Built in 1975, it's rated for a maximum load of 55 tons. Volume 31 of the magazine J-trains has more than half of the issue devoted to articles on JNR-era freight operations, and includes a survey of all the JNR and privately-owned heavy duty flatcars and Schnabel-type cars.

 

Charles' comments about model industries often being smaller than a single boxcar is very true, when in reality even a relatively small industrial building can dwarf the trains. Here's a view of some simple mock-ups I made of the Komatsu tractor factory buildings in Komatsu city:

 

 

They're big...

 

Cheers,

 

Mark.

Edited November 19, 2015 by marknewton

[bikkuri bahn]

To add to marknewton's post- many stations serving bigger towns and smaller cities, in addition to a freight shed track, would have a single long spur leading out well behind that shed in an open lot adjacent to the station building. Typically this was used for loading/unloading of bulk freight such as lumber/logs, or as a team track. Often these tracks were filled with strings of wamus.  Aerial pictures of towns in Hokkaido from the late 1970's/early 80's show these arrangements quite well.

 

*here is one of those aerial pictures, of the town of Osamunai, on the Hakodate Main Line, taken in 1977.  The station layout is the archetypical "Kokutetsu style" of one island platform and a platform alongside the station building. Immediately adjacent to the station building is a freight shed and a track serving that facility.  There is also the team track of the arrangement I mentioned above, occupied by with what appears to be four wamus and a reefer(?).  On the other side of the station is a group of loop tracks used for car storage or arrangement/pickup of freight cars.  A very typical layout.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/98/Cho-77-27_c11_35.jpg  *click to enlarge

Edited November 19, 2015 by bikkuri bahn

[marknewton]

Good point, bb. I've got some good photos showing those sorts of sidings which I can post tomorrow. In the meantime here's one showing open wagons being loaded with timber at Fukaura on the Gono line in Aomori:

 

 

Cheers,

 

Mark.

[bikkuri bahn]

Yes, that's another typical layout with just one island platform, seen on secondary/rural lines.  The station is at ground level and passengers had to cross a few tracks to access the platform.  But what a great eye level view of freight to be had for the pedestrian!

[bikkuri bahn]

Much more urban location, but still manages to convey the atmosphere of the freight shed, shunting, and lcl freight traffic (JNR Itabashi Station, then Akabane Line, now Saikyo Line):

 

source:

http://www.city.itabashi.tokyo.jp/c_kurashi/059/images/img_59365_1_4.jpg.html

Edited November 19, 2015 by bikkuri bahn