Modeling Japanese industry?

[velotrain]

Thanks for all the responses, links, etc.

 

I should say that I'm mostly interested in structure kits, although I'm perfectly willing to bash - which it looks like I'll need to do.  This was initially triggered by Toni's island module idea, and I was thinking of industries that I could place on islands.  I was asking about modelers who represented Japanese industries on their layouts, as I was curious about what others might have done.

 

Regarding the prototype, I'm sure the US is different from Japan, but I'm guessing not all that different from Europe.  Most of the smaller industries that had railway service, either closed or switched to trucks by the 50's / 60's.  One thing I'm wondering about - how do smaller Japanese plants handle say a single container?  I can't imagine that they all have massive traveling container lifts?  Or, do they all use trucks below a certain daily/weekly level of activity?

 

A big difference between Japan and the US / Europe, is that there are many modelers in the latter countries who are interested in older eras, while that seems almost non-existent - or at least "underground" in Japan.  In the US, a very popular period is what's known as the transition era, when most railroads had both steam and diesel.  I - and many US modelers, find the brick and concrete industries (similar to the Metcalf card kits of an even earlier era (century?) of mid-20th century much more visually interesting than what has replaced them.  If you look at the Walther's structure kits, they may do special series on modern industries, but the "Showa" style is always popular.  One benefit is that you can use older and shorter cars, so it needs less space.  The freight cars themselves are much more varied and interesting, compared to often sterile modern stock.  However, I have always hated alleged industry kits where a 50' long car is larger than the building!

 

Anyone who thinks that a roundy-round takes more space than a shunting layout clearly hasn't looked at Carl Arendt's (former) site - now maintained by someone else, although not nearly as well.  That may be true if you're talking about a string of 6-8 Wamu's, but most small shunting layouts may have a small yard and up to a half-dozen industries that are switched one car at a time.  Unless you're really set on watching shinkansen, a small shelf shunting layout is still the best option for those with minimal space - many modelers build them over a work table, or on Ikea bookcases.

 

Here are a couple of (small) late Showa images that show a freight operation that will take almost no space on your layout.  Of course, they would be static scenes instead of an actual operation (although the boxcar could be switched - if the truck wasn't too close ;-), but to me these have twice the charm of any contemporary operation.

 

 

 

 

[inobu]

This is a terminal in Hiroshima which is a major city. Look at the staging lines not much there. As for structures not much to model.

 

 

If you go to Yamaguchi west of Hiroshima you will find a smaller terminal with even less "operations". I guess it depends on the definition of operations.

I think it is different for us in the States

 

Inobu

Edited November 14, 2015 by inobu

[katoftw]

 

I beg to differ about the lack of operations at the Hiroshima freight terminal.  See attached photo.  There is plenty of staging and pushing and pulling cars into place.

 

The yellow line is a 23 car loading area.  The red circle is a crossover.  A the purple arrow goes off the picture all the way to Tenjingawa station.  Which is also where the engine houses and storage is.

 

If you look at a zoomed in google map of the terminal.  You will actually see a DE10 pushing 5 kokis in the area I have marked with the yellow line.

Edited November 14, 2015 by katoftw

[kvp]

 

I should say that I'm mostly interested in structure kits, although I'm perfectly willing to bash - which it looks like I'll need to do.

Greenmax has various structure kits, mostly unpainted and are very easy to kitbash. Tomytec has some nice industrial kits too, but mostly older buildings in the diorama collection. If you like the steam era, then they are perfect. Lots of small and large industry too, even dedicated freight platforms and small detail buildings. (like ground throw and tools shacks or shelter containers for the modern era)

 

Not too many people like freight operations for some reason. I spent a year trying to develop a better uncoupling system.

One guy thought it to be like the Kadee system which its no where close. The uncoupler has a 97% success rate.

I even took it to Kato and they though nothing about it. That was 6 years ago so I just boxed it up.

Most japanese freight shunters use rapidos. They have a near 100% percent uncoupling rate with most electromagnetic or mechanically operated uncouplers. (the push plate kind) Also there is the Tomix system, where a static magnet always uncouples, while an electromagnet can be used to uncouple conditionally, even if only one of the couplers are magnet equipped. The good thing is that there is no skill involved as both systems are foolproof. Personally i find both good and the fact that rapido is a common minimum for N scale japanese freight rolling stock means it's supported by almost everyone.

 

 

This is a terminal in Hiroshima which is a major city. Look at the staging lines not much there. As for structures not much to model.

As i said above, the idea is to move freight from source to destination without using a terminal. Most terminals are just transshipping points and work like small industrial sidings. There are lots of them, because JRF aims to move the freight transshipping points as close to the industries as possible. Ideally a japanese freight layout doesn't even involve a terminal, just rail served industries. In the past the loading/unloading tracks were usually located next to passanger stations, to bring the freight as close to the towns as possible. Most large terminals that still remain are either large transfer points or simply used as storage sidings for freight cars. Actually this is also increasingly true for amercian railroads, mostly on routes where modernisation has taken place.

[katoftw]

Most japanese freight shunters use rapidos. They have a near 100% percent uncoupling rate with most electromagnetic or mechanically operated uncouplers. (the push plate kind) Also there is the Tomix system, where a static magnet always uncouples, while an electromagnet can be used to uncouple conditionally, even if only one of the couplers are magnet equipped. The good thing is that there is no skill involved as both systems are foolproof. Personally i find both good and the fact that rapido is a common minimum for N scale japanese freight rolling stock means it's supported by almost everyone.

Gimme more info please.

[velotrain]

Tomytec has some nice industrial kits too, but mostly older buildings in the diorama collection. If you like the steam era, then they are perfect. Lots of small and large industry too, even dedicated freight platforms and small detail buildings. (like ground throw and tools shacks or shelter containers for the modern era)

 

Could you give some examples, especially of large industry?  I'm not aware of any.  Actually - I'm not aware of Tomytec producing any large structures of any sort.

 

One thing I've been wondering is why there are no kits for breweries or soy sauce factories?  They could probably even use the same castings, but with different signs.

[kvp]

The Tomix system has a small magnet under the rapido couplers (some locomotives get them in the factory), while for the rest the magnets can be glued under the couplers. There is an uncoupler magnet track and you can use an electromagnet to activate the couplers conditionally.

 

The static magnet one is even in stock at Model Train Plus:

http://www.modeltrainplus.net/products/tomix-1521-fine-track-uncoupler-track-with-light-pole-m70

 

The mechanical one is mostly used in Europe:

https://www.fleischmann.de/doc/idimages/def/55167.jpg

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Rp3wtWkiL._SL1000_.jpg

(very reliable and can be added into high speed mainlines or passenger stations for runaround operations)

[katoftw]

 

http://www.tomytec.co.jp/diocolle/lineup/jyoukei_k/jyoukei-k_073.html#73b

Edited November 14, 2015 by katoftw

[velotrain]

As i said above, the idea is to move freight from source to destination without using a terminal. Most terminals are just transshipping points and work like small industrial sidings. . . .  Ideally a japanese freight layout doesn't even involve a terminal, just rail served industries. . . . Most large terminals that still remain are either large transfer points or simply used as storage sidings for freight cars. Actually this is also increasingly true for amercian railroads, mostly on routes where modernisation has taken place.

 

Huh   I don't know exactly how you're defining terminal, transfer points, and transshipping points. 

 

Although the US is much larger, I would think that even in Japan they would want to combine freight shipments for the major part of the distance for efficiency / economic reasons.  I don't follow prototype railroading, but I am sure that hump / classification yards still exist in the US.  Granted, there is no reason to stop unit trains from "source to destination", such as a coal train from mine to power plant, but there are still other types of freight shipments in the US.  I'm in the northeast, where almost all small industrial rail customers are gone or using trucks, but suspect in other areas of the country - such as the south or Midwest, there are still customers for carload freight.

[katoftw]

The Tomix system has a small magnet under the rapido couplers (some locomotives get them in the factory), while for the rest the magnets can be glued under the couplers. There is an uncoupler magnet track and you can use an electromagnet to activate the couplers conditionally.

This is more the info I require.  Biggest issue I have with the static magnetic couplers is that you cannot use the for dead end shunt track.  As you cannot pull them back out.

 

Runaround ops not an issue cos you just go collect the consist from the opposite end.

[kvp]

Tomytec has made both a soy and a sake factory diorama, about the same size as their temple dioramas.

the soy factory:

http://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/21/53/22/2153227e30b1c58230860d02e83fd49c.jpg

and the sake factory:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-zb-aY5OX_E8/VAfjpzskFOI/AAAAAAAACqE/XDiXo_LptrM/s1600/TT089a.jpg

 

And i have a few ~50 cm tall Tomix skyscrapers built from their smaller modular skyscraper kits. You can get multiple kits, remove the roof and ground floor modules and stack them as high as you dare.

http://onlineshop.modellbahnunion.com/union_e/prodpic/Skyscraper-4018_b_1.JPG

[katoftw]

Btw, if I remember someone posted a 'drilling' operation with container.. One KoKi left on the yard, then a diesel shunter pick it up and left it on a small goods terminal..

I remember that.  I had to ask what drilling was.  Cos I read it as the containers were being drilled onto the platforms.  It would be in the vids+pics section of the forums.

Edited November 14, 2015 by katoftw

[inobu]

This is more the info I require.  Biggest issue I have with the static magnetic couplers is that you cannot use the for dead end shunt track.  As you cannot pull them back out.

 

Watch my video I solved the problem. Those are static uncouplers.

 

Charles,

 

I pretty much abandoned the shunting with the JR stuff because it wasn't much to duplicate. There system is linear they load and unload and move on. There's more to do in an U.S. railroad because we have hubs that service east, west, north and south. There always something going in either direction at any given time. I understand you were looking for structures but the ones they have cater to scenes more so than operations.

 

Inobu

[velotrain]

Kato - I don't know exactly what that plant is supposed to represent, but I find it rather silly.  I don't know the implied function of the two tall towers, but otherwise there are two storage tanks, two cooling towers , and truck/rail distribution platforms - apparently the same.  It is much too small to represent any sort of refinery - even by model railroad standards.  No doubt many are willing to put this on their layout just as it is, but I certainly wouldn't.

 

This HO refinery by Plastruct

 

 

http://www.hobbylinc.com/plastruct-petro:chemical-refinery-kit-ho-scale-model-railroad-accessory-1008?source=froogle&gclid=CjwKEAiA1JuyBRCogJLz4J71kj0SJADsd6QRBM8EY1Pk8MLlf8emEyIhyRI9If49zGSZY3D0iHrEOBoCvAPw_wcB

 

 

is a little more realistic, but not by much.  The piping seems more realistic - at least more plentiful.  The one from Walthers isn't any better:

 

 

https://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/933-3705

 

 

but at least it has some interesting ladders and platforms.  I think it is possible to build a credible distribution center, but anything larger should not be attempted on a small layout.  Here in the US there is a group interested in modeling the steel industry, and they have some LARGE and quite realistic models - I can dig up some photos if anyone is interested.  They often start with the Walther's kits, but then go way beyond those.

 

Please don't take this rant personally - my unhappiness is with the manufacturers who try to represent something that they cannot, so they just throw a bunch of stuff together (like Tomytec) in the hopes that consumers will buy it.

[katoftw]

Thanks Inobu.  You video shows it in action.  But not what and how.

 

Also, what do you mean by, "I understand you were looking for structures but the ones they have cater to scenes more so than operations."  What structure does a modeler need when it comes to ops?  I cannot think of any.

[katoftw]

Kato - I don't know exactly what that plant is supposed to represent, but I find it rather silly.  I don't know the implied function of the two tall towers, but otherwise there are two storage tanks, two cooling towers , and truck/rail distribution platforms - apparently the same.  It is much too small to represent any sort of refinery - even by model railroad standards.  No doubt many are willing to put this on their layout just as it is, but I certainly wouldn't.

 

....

 

Please don't take this rant personally - my unhappiness is with the manufacturers who try to represent something that they cannot, so they just throw a bunch of stuff together (like Tomytec) in the hopes that consumers will buy it.

I think you are arguing for the sake of arguing.

 

The item I linked you to comes as components (also in the link) and you mix and match to your desire.  Want more gas tanks, buy more, want more pipes, buy more.  You make it what you want it to be.  You can make it as big as you want.  The piping would be plentiful.

Edited November 14, 2015 by katoftw

[inobu]

Thanks Inobu.  You video shows it in action.  But not what and how.

 

Also, what do you mean by, "I understand you were looking for structures but the ones they have cater to scenes more so than operations."  What structure does a modeler need when it comes to ops?  I cannot think of any.

in the video it shows every operation, push, pull, It evens extracts a car that is in the middle of a 7 to 10 car shunt.

 

As for operations. The U.S. models have coal tipples and loaders.

 

 

Lumber mills

 

 

These structures allows the operation of a different sorts. This is why/what Charles mentioned soy sause plants. 

It gives the modeler the ability to create manifest to drop cars off or pick them up.

 

Inobu

 

 

Inobu

Edited November 14, 2015 by inobu

[kvp]

 

Although the US is much larger, I would think that even in Japan they would want to combine freight shipments for the major part of the distance for efficiency / economic reasons. I don't follow prototype railroading, but I am sure that hump / classification yards still exist in the US. Granted, there is no reason to stop unit trains from "source to destination", such as a coal train from mine to power plant, but there are still other types of freight shipments in the US. I'm in the northeast, where almost all small industrial rail customers are gone or using trucks, but suspect in other areas of the country - such as the south or Midwest, there are still customers for carload freight.

Actually hump yards are pretty much the thing of the past. The idea is to start a bunch of freight locos from one point and they get the freight cars hanged onto the train at industrial locations along the way. Also they drop off the cars at their destination. This is called gather/scatter operation and are faster than central yards, but requite a bit more locomotives. Japan pretty much does the same and even started doing it way before anyone else, due to lack of space in cities. Carloads are handled at transshipping points, so a bunch of cars get dropped off at the middle of nowhere (but near enough for most customers) with a concrete slab and a guard shack and loads are transferred to trucks there. Pretty much what the aerial photo shows.

 

ps: The use of containers have also resulted in another way of doing classification: by container lifter. This means a unit container train arrives at a yard, gets unloaded into piles according to destination, then these piles get unloaded into their intended unit container trains. These yards have only a few tracks, concrete and huge piles of sorted containers waiting for their trains. It isn't an accident that i've seen quite a few different container loaders offered by various manufacturers as these loaders together with the paved areas form the basis of modern freight operations. (sometimes it's easier and faster to remove containers and directly place them onto other trains than to shunt the cars between the trains, as you can have as many loaders as there are cars /actually the m250 does/, but you can only shunt or sort a train linearly)

 

Modern freight operations with lots of action to model:

(you just have to do it by hand on a model or need a few RC loaders)

Edited November 14, 2015 by kvp

[katoftw]

https://www.google.com.au/maps/@35.4896534,139.7059472,634m/data=!3m1!1e3

 

I found something interesting while looking for oil/fuel refinery pictures.  The above google map has a location where the Taki cars are loaded with fuel, (roofed platform just like passenger station).  It looks like the push them into place 3 cars at a time, as the are grouped is 3s.  And above the loading area near the street is a 3 track staging area.

 

And for something really confusing.  Just a little SW of the fuel loading point is the Toshiba factory.  Follow the rail lines around that factory. haha

Edited November 14, 2015 by katoftw

[inobu]

Charles,

 

This sums it up. We ship in weeks. They ship in days.

 

 

Inobu

[inobu]

https://www.google.com.au/maps/@35.4896534,139.7059472,634m/data=!3m1!1e3

 

I found something interesting while looking for oil/fuel refinery pictures.  The above google map has a location where the Taki cars are loaded with fuel, (roofed platform just like passenger station).  It looks like the push them into place 3 cars at a time, as the are grouped is 3s.  And above the loading area near the street is a 3 track staging area.

I'm surprised that one car is by itself. Their concept is much like ATM data transfer. It has a fixed size and never exceeds the subscribed payload.

 

Inobu 

[katoftw]

in the video it shows every operation, push, pull, It evens extracts a car that is in the middle of a 7 to 10 car shunt.

What track?

What couplers?

What magnets?

Rolling stock manufacturer used?

Other?

[velotrain]

While both of those complexes are sprawling, I'm not sure that I'd say they are large.  Even with the sake factory, it's interesting that they don't show any rail connection, suggesting that the output isn't large enough to make it worthwhile.

 

I'm more interested in something like these photos of the Yamada plant:

 

 

 

 

 

I realize this doesn't show a rail connection to the soy sauce plant, so maybe I just like the colorful trams in the foreground!

 

Assuming the Tomix transformer car isn't imaginary, are there any photos of the plants that produce these?  No doubt they're loaded inside a building, so not a lot to see, but it would make an interesting industry with a few empty cars outside and some loaded ones ready to hit the road.

 

 

 

 

Does anyone know anything about this scene?  This small yard is clearly at least partially abandoned, but I'm curious what the original function was?  It was certainly expensive to build, with so many switches and crossings in such a small space.

 

 

 

 

Here's an industrial yard and engine facility, although on the large and complex side:

 

 

 

 

Here are a couple of smaller facilities, that might be easier to model:

 

 

 

 

 

 

This last group of images are larger industrial complexes, but it might be possible to model a portion of one, say against a backscene or in a corner of a layout.  These are the sort of images that really get my blood going, with the complex arrangement of structures and conveyors / piping running in all directions.  I guess for me industries are largely about the visual interest

 

 

 

 

 

 

[inobu]

What track?

What couplers?

What magnets?

Rolling stock manufacturer used?

Other?

Its all in the video but Ill answer 

.

 

• Unitrack
• Kato and Microtrains
• Modules I designed
• Kato and Microtrains
• I only tested Kato and Microtrains

 

Charles,

 

Its all scratch build. There isnt much for industry.

 

Inobu

[kvp]

Assuming the Tomix transformer car isn't imaginary, are there any photos of the plants that produce these?

I only have one of the hungarian version: http://www.villamosok.hu/nza/7052mosz.jpg

They were moved across the tram network to the nearest station and the pictures was taken at the lower left corner of this junction: http://villamosok.hu/kepek/terkep/fvv1952/moszk805.jpg

 

Here is an even larger japanese variant: http://www.ako-minpo.jp/data/d00031/p3101_0.jpg

and the toshiba transformer plant in Kawasaki: http://www.toshiba-tds.com/tandd/products/trans/jp/index_j.htm (it's a bit east from Kojimashinden station on the Keikyū Daishi line)

 

Here: http://www.google.hu/maps/@35.5296389,139.7666135,16z/data=!3m1!1e3

(and apparently has rail access with a dedicated spur line with a small yard and a track going into each assembly building and what appears to be a chemical plant next door and all on an island with a road/rail bridge)

 

Btw: The area of the Tsurumi and Nanbu lines is a perfect mix of residential, industrial and sea freight oriented areas and being near the coast (or in some cases on artificial islands) the area can be modelled for both freight, industry and point to point passenger operations, both on small scale shelf and large scale realistic layouts.

 

ps: The biggest challange is always getting it through the factory door: http://www6.plala.or.jp/go100khr/h20fig011.jpg