Driven axles on KiHa 20... KiHa 52 KiHa 40...

[hans-diesel]

Hi all,

 

Which axles are driven on:

KiHa 20, 21, 22

KiHa 52

KiHa 40

KiHa 47

KiHa 48

 

I know that KiHa 20, 21 and 22 have 1 engine and that KiHa 52 has 2 engines. Does each engine of KiHa 52 drive 1 truck?

 

Thanks in advance, Hans

[kvp]

Considering that the kiha 20 series had powered and trailing bogies, we can assume one fully powered bogie. The double engined variants power both bogies with one motor per bogie.

[hans-diesel]

Ah, I didn't know that the KiHa 20 series had 1 truck not driven. Now I know this, I reread the Google translated Japanese sources and now I see that indeed the info is there.

 

Thanks, Hans

[hans-diesel]

And if I understand everything correctly, then the KiHa 40 / 47 / 48 also have 1 powered and 1 nonpowered truck.

 

Please confirm, Hans

[ToniBabelony]

Usually (from my limited DMU sources at hand a.t.m.), diesels with one engine had a trailing bogie and a powered bogie, where only one axle is actually powered, providing very limited traction (but then again also very few moving parts). Hence the all-DMU cars (ignoring KiRo vehicles, which were not powered) in a consist. 

[hans-diesel]

Ok, now I understand my confusion better.

First I thought DMU's have a (1A)'(A1)' axle arrangement (from Google translated Japanese sources).

Then I understood we were talking about B'2' axle arrangement (for KiHa 20 series).

Now I know that it is (1A)'2' axle arrangement for most KiHa's.

I never thought about only 1 driven axle. That's were it went wrong, I was not open for this.

 

All thanks, Hans

[Welshbloke]

On a vaguely related note, which KiHa types were mixed?

A power/dummy pair of KiHa 52s came my way a month or so ago by way of a bargain ebay auction with no other bidders. While they look pretty enough trundling around as a pair I just wondered if JNR ever ran them with other types of DMU?

[kvp]

Actually most japanese diesel hydraulic dmu-s are mixable. On some heritage (=poor 3rd sector) railways they run in almost any combination even express/commuter units together. Pre ww2 units were mostly mechanical, so they can't run with the more modern postwar ones, but other than that, it's just a question of jumper cables. After the end of the JNR, the standards went pretty much out of the window. You can't even match old units based on paint as i've seen express, commuter and capital colors in mixed sets of different types even on some JNR era pictures. Generally JNR tried to have at least 2:1 motor:trailer balance or 1:0 on steep lines and at least one accessible toilet on every group of cars. Later AC added hotel power balance requirements to the consists as it was a bad idea to power equipment more than 3 cars away from the generator and some cars didn't have high enough capacity genreators (trailers usually had nothing), so they required power from neighbours. The only rule that was seeming enforced strictly was to have at least a working cab on each end.

 

Also, there were some fixed consist dmu-s, mostly in express service and those units usually had only 2 cabs or 3 in case of added booster cars. These trains were usually not run together with the more common single or double cab units.

[Densha]

On a vaguely related note, which KiHa types were mixed?

Oh yes they were. Welcome to the wonderful world of JNR era diesel multiple units: http://www7b.biglobe.ne.jp/~kidousha/

[Welshbloke]

Yep, I'd guessed things like the KiHa 82 probably wouldn't be mixed with the single car types! Was just wondering if there was a precedent for other single car types running with a KiHa 52, like a KiHa 30 or 35. Or alternatively a KiHa 47 pair.

Edited October 20, 2015 by Welshbloke

[kvp]

The JNR apparently followed the anyting goes school of dmu coupling:

[Densha]

I did some research and found these prototypical formations:

 

JR East KiHa 52 - KiHa 40 - KiHa 58 - KiHa 58: http://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/fujikasai1028/35892640.html

JR East KiHa 47 - KiHa 52 - KiHa 47: http://blog.goo.ne.jp/ss73411/e/957fb920719bbec6b30ca944715168bb

JR East KiHa 52 - KiHa 40 and also KiHa 52 - KiHa 47: http://blog.goo.ne.jp/futaba-joban/e/42d9042eb3899be1955f9bcc137f13c8

Isumi Railway (ex-JNR) KiHa 52 - KiHa 30: http://rail.hobidas.com/rmn/archives/2013/01/jr30_62_2.html

 

But to be honest, I don't think that you should worry about proving a certain JNR DMU formation, because most formations will have probably existed at some point in time anyway. That was the whole point of JNR making all (?) their DMUs compatible, to be able to mix them all in either way they wanted without restrictions. (Obviously I know that this is just maybe the way you enjoy this hobby, but as the saying goes: "Whatever Japanese model railway you build, it probably has existed or exists in prototype anyway." ;) )

[ToniBabelony]

Apart from the 'regular' DMU being mixed, there are also these one-time examples of KiHa 181's and the like (Ltd. Express dedicated DMU) running as a single unit, locomotive hauled, or even coupled up to locomotive hauled passenger services as a dead haul. Of course, these are rare examples, but provide an excuse for your layout!

 

If you place your setting in the late 1970s to the last days of JNR operations, you can basically do anything you like with the regular commuter DMU.

 

Also, let's not forget the combinations JR Central and Meitetsu rocked once:

 

 

KiHa 85 combined with KiHa 8500 as a 'Kita Alps' service.

[Densha]

If we're heading that way I just have to post this one, a JR Shikoku 2000 series cab car on its solitary journey:

 

[katoftw]

JR Hokkaido and JR Kyushu still mix DMUs all the time.  It isn't just a JNR era only process.

Edited October 21, 2015 by katoftw

[Welshbloke]

Thanks all, was just thinking ahead in case I should spot, say, a lone KiHa 47 cheaply.

 

Interesting to see that they didn't tend to keep the units with single cabs in pairs. The British Rail approach was for these to be in semi-fixed sets (until one or more coaches needed repair or overhaul), but frequently whatever was available would be sent out in a train producing what the enthusiast world dubbed "hybrid" units. As long as there was a cab at both ends, no more than one trailer per power car, 12 or fewer cars in total and six or fewer power cars (limits of the MU system) and all cars had the same coupling code then anything went.

[kvp]

The reason for married pairs is usually shared components between the two cars. Many japanese emu-s have this with two moha cars sharing a single pantograph, air compressor and motor-generator (or lately static voltage converter). The modular design of separate cab trailers and motor pairs means the smallest unit for these trains is 4 cars (kuha-moha-moha'-kuha). For most dmu-s, JNR tended to have self contained units, so most of them could be run alone, except trailers and the AC units fitted on some weaker cars. The linked photo above with the 4 cars in two different liveries actually has a 3 car set with an older cabless car sandwitched between two newer units and an older cab equipped car added to one end of the 3 car set as booster/baggage space.

 

ps: The kiha85 and kiha8500 sets are built on the same technology and differ mostly on the outside only and are fully mu-able. They still lack the universal coupling capabilities used on old JNR era sets. Btw. i'm still looking for any documentation on the JNR emu/dmu MU standards (mostly the pinout of the jumper cables and the signals that travelled on them).

[ToniBabelony]

 

The linked photo above with the 4 cars in two different liveries actually has a 3 car set with an older cabless car sandwitched between two newer units and an older cab equipped car added to one end of the 3 car set as booster/baggage space.

 

Nope. Looks like a KiHa 20-400 to me, which are powered very much.

 

The baggage car on the left however is interesting, as it looks like a KiHaYuNi 15-11, but has a different window formation.

[kvp]

Nope. Looks like a KiHa 20-400 to me, which are powered very much.

I never said it was a trailer, but you are right that it does seem to have cabs. However the two newer units are facing away from the car, so the set could not be cut between them and excpect the parts it to move in both directions. This suggest a 3 car set with cabs in this order: <baggage - <new - <old> - new> which would make sense as in 3 car mode the cabs will be used in the two newer cars and the middle car only needs the mu system and the prime mover to provide traction, while the baggage car only needs a working cab as a minimum, but could have a working motor too. For 2+2 operating possibility, the order would be <baggage - new> - <old - new> or something similar.

 

ps: Isn't this baggage dmu one of the cars that will be released by Tomytec in the near future?

[ToniBabelony]

AFAIK, regular commuter DMU never had 2nd class cars without a control cab. This only applied for Ltd. Express types.

 

ps: Isn't this baggage dmu one of the cars that will be released by Tomytec in the near future?

 

If it is one with a Shōnan-type front, this could very well be the case. Then it would be a KiHaYuNi 16 instead of a KiHaYuNi 15-11. The 16 certainly has the correct window formation.

 

If this is the case, the formation would be from left to right:

- KiHaYuNi 16 ((built: 1952) remodelling: 1956)

- KiHa 55 (built: 1956~1960)

- KiHa 20-400 (built: 1957~1965)

- KiHa 58 (built: 1961~1969)

 

Making them all roughly the same age (generation) with maybe a ten year difference, not really making it matter where in the formation they would be placed.

[sectionmaster]

just found this thread.  over the years i purchased 3 kato KiHa 52's, 2 with cabs at each end, and 1 with a cab at only 1 end; the other end 'blind'.  I've been looking for a mate for single-end cab version but no luck so far. Were the prototype KiHa 52's ever built as a married pair (or paired) or was this just a kato thing?

[HantuBlauLOL]

just found this thread.  over the years i purchased 3 kato KiHa 52's, 2 with cabs at each end, and 1 with a cab at only 1 end; the other end 'blind'.  I've been looking for a mate for single-end cab version but no luck so far. Were the prototype KiHa 52's ever built as a married pair (or paired) or was this just a kato thing?

 

it's like that in reality. you could mix them as long as there are cabs on both trainset ends.

 

 

 

btw, why newer japanese DMUs only use horizontally mounted inline-6 engines?

[kvp]

Imho there were no true married pairs like for the DC motor units, just dual, single and cabless cars usable in a mix and match fashion. The actual operating conditions dictated the setups based on where the trains were split and why (boosters were usually left behind and picked up later while standalone consists continued on different routes).

 

For the 6 cylinder horizontal arrangement my best guess is that 12 cylinders are not needed anymore and the 60 degrees firing minimalizes the vibration while giving the lowest horizonal profile and simplifies the power train layout.

[Welshbloke]

I don't think the single cab unit is a KiHa 52, which might be complicating your search.

[kvp]

I don't think the single cab unit is a KiHa 52, which might be complicating your search.

It should have the car number on it which could help. It could be a kiha 37 as they are somewhat similar, but either the proto lettering or a kato number should be present.