SaRo 165s with and without green band?

[Welshbloke]

I've been looking at the Kato 165 Series range of late, and will have assembled an eight car train by the end of next week. One thing's puzzling me though - they offer the 4059 SaRo 165 with or without a green stripe along the side below the windows?

 

Both are clearly still a Green Car as they have the cloverleaf symbol by the doors, so I'm wondering when the green band was added or removed, or was it just not present on all such coaches?

[E6系]

Hello Mr Welshbloke,

 

In the 1980's when I travelled on such trains, the Green Car had the green stripe.  It was removed in later years.  I cannot tell you the exact date without taking the time to look this up, but you should choose to run either in your formation, but not both.

[Welshbloke]

That's fine, I've got one in hand and one on order, both with the stripe. Thanks!

[E6系]

Hello Mr Welshbloke,

 

I have full 12-car formation with 3 green cars - 1 x sahashi and 2 x saro.

 

Which formation are you planning to model?

[Welshbloke]

If you look at this diagram on the Kato site it's the second one down with the pair of KuMoNi 83-800 on the end, although mine will have a lone KuMoNi rather than the pair (and it'll be on the other end of the train to avoid needing to buy a replacement bogie for the KuMoHa 165).

 

However, looking around they seem to have been a bit of a mix and match unit with all sorts of formations being seen, so it'll also run as a six car (just the power and dummy sets), or a couple of three or four car sets. The dummy one will be towed by a KuMoYuNi 74 when running separately, if I swap the KuHas around and put the KuMoNi dummy on the back of the powered set they'll both have directional lighting.

Edited October 1, 2015 by Welshbloke

[SuRoNeFu 25-501]

Between July 1961 and May 9th, 1969, JNR used green-colored band for differentiating 1st class cars from the 2nd class cars. This color was used as the replacement of white color (old 1st class band). However, following the May 10th, 1969 fare and travel class revision, the usage of green band was discontinued, with the classes were simplified to become mono-class system. The changes are described in the following data:

 

1. Seating car

 

1st class (一等座席) -> Green Car (グリーン車)

2nd class (二等座席) -> standard class (普通車)

 

2. Sleeper car

 

1st class (一等寝台) -> A-class (A寝台)

2nd class (二等寝台) -> B-class (B寝台)

 

Because of the revision, of course the green band on the 1st class cars were removed, resulting in the simplification of painting process when the 1st class car underwent overhaul at the workshops.

 

Cheers,

 

Arya

[Welshbloke]

Aha! Thanks for that, explains the era of the train I'm assembling.

 

I don't really worry about having all my stock from the same period, but I do try to keep individual trains accurate within themselves. I won't have a steam engine hauling modern containers, for example, but I'd have the 165 Series in 1960s form pulling up next to the Asakaze in its last days as a loco-hauled sleeper.

 

Now, as for shorter formations - would you have seen a four car 165 Series set containing a SaRo? How about a SaHaShi? Thinking in terms of other realistic trains I can put together using the same stock.

 

It looks as though you can have a maximum of two trailers to each KuMoHa/MoHa pair, judging by the diagrams. Annoyingly the SaHa 153 is out of production as at least one of the diagrams includes one.

Edited October 2, 2015 by Welshbloke

[kvp]

JNR emu power to trailer ratios were usually either 1:1 or 2:1 depending on required acceleration and terrain.

 

Early emus had single power cars and later this got updated to married pairs sharing a pantograph and a compressor.

 

Early cab cars were mostly motors with later types having a mix of kumoha/kuha cars to be more flexible. Some types going so far to have only unpowered cab cars. (this does make the number of combinations less as you'll only need 4 car types for a commuter, 2 motors and 2 trailers)

Edited October 3, 2015 by kvp

[SuRoNeFu 25-501]

Now, as for shorter formations - would you have seen a four car 165 Series set containing a SaRo? How about a SaHaShi? Thinking in terms of other realistic trains I can put together using the same stock.

AFAIK, none of 4-car 165 series EMUs had SaRo 165 or SaHaShi 165 cars, since 4-car trainsets of an express-type EMU like 153, 165, 169 etc are usually those that relegated from express to local service...

[Welshbloke]

That makes sense. Guessing the MoHas and KuHas survived rather longer than the SaRo and SaHaShi as a result?

 

One last question - I know the two types were compatible as SaHa 153s apparently turned up in 165 Series sets, but did MoHa 152/153 pairs ever pop up in a 165 Series? I know the 153s weren't as powerful, but I'm just wondering if the two types ever ran together?

 

Inspired by the fact that I've just managed to snag an unpowered MoHa 152/153 pair, which I will eventually find a pair of KuHas for and tow with a powered EMU or a KuMoYuNi/KuMoNi.

[SuRoNeFu 25-501]

That makes sense. Guessing the MoHas and KuHas survived rather longer than the SaRo and SaHaShi as a result?

Yes. KuHa and MoHa are considered as the most important part of a train. You can guess what would happen if you don't have motor cars, or you don't have control cars in your train

 

One last question - I know the two types were compatible as SaHa 153s apparently turned up in 165 Series sets, but did MoHa 152/153 pairs ever pop up in a 165 Series? I know the 153s weren't as powerful, but I'm just wondering if the two types ever ran together?

 

AFAIK none of MoHa 152 and 153 pairs were mixed into a 165 series train...

[Welshbloke]

Thanks again, looks like I have more stock for a depot scene then! They can sit next to the KuMoHa 115-1000 waiting for that chance ebay find to build a realistic train around them.

[SuRoNeFu 25-501]

Good luck on building a perfect depot scene, I hope you enjoy the beauty of Shonan colors (yes, 165 series, 153 series and 115 series trains were primarily delivered from the factory in Shonan livery)

[kvp]

You can guess what would happen if you don't have motor cars, or you don't have control cars in your train

Actually i've seen quite a lot of trains (not in Japan though) where the trailers from several broken down emu-s were lashed together with a locomotive and ran as a normal loco hauled train. Some of them even had a cab car right behind the locomotive for the baggage/bike space.

[Welshbloke]

Good luck on building a perfect depot scene, I hope you enjoy the beauty of Shonan colors (yes, 165 series, 153 series and 115 series trains were primarily delivered from the factory in Shonan livery)

 

Yep, the colours were what attracted me to them! Then did a bit of research into their history and found a few bargains on ebay, with fairly standard results...

 

I've been considering buying a Kato engine shed or two and building a diorama on a thin base (so it can be used on a temporary layout for now, then built into a permanent one later) so this might just be an incentive to get on with it!

[SuRoNeFu 25-501]

Actually i've seen quite a lot of trains (not in Japan though) where the trailers from several broken down emu-s were lashed together with a locomotive and ran as a normal loco hauled train. Some of them even had a cab car right behind the locomotive for the baggage/bike space.

Well, Indonesia once had the same phenomenon, but with DMU instead of EMU. But thank god that the scene is no longer seen in Indonesia (as the workshops has successfully "transforming" them into the real loco-hauled coach, though some parts of the body still clearly explains the origin).

 

Yep, the colours were what attracted me to them!

Shonan color is very beautiful. If you're Googling the word "湘南電車" (Shonan Densha), there are lots of trains that painted in the Shonan color. From 80 series to E233-3000 (which is of course also categorized as part of Shonan Densha, because of the color used for the band), it is surely attracting the eyes of lots of railfans (^^)v

 

EDIT: be careful when you're Googling the "Shonan Densha", as this word is always confused with the nickname of one of Keikyu's predecessor, the Shonan Electric Railway (which the nickname was "Shonan Densha")

Edited October 5, 2015 by SuRoNeFu 25-501

[Sacto1985]

Speaking of 湘南電車, I wonder why hasn't JR East thought about painting a few E231-1000 or E233-3000 trainsets assigned to the Tokyo-Atami run in the full Shonan colors like they did to a 185 EMU some time ago.

Edited October 5, 2015 by Sacto1985

[kvp]

Probably because of the stainless steel sides. A vinyl wrap would be doable though as it is removable but won't fall off. Decorating the fronts would be tricky as those are even less moddable than the sides.

Edited October 5, 2015 by kvp

[SuRoNeFu 25-501]

Speaking of 湘南電車, I wonder why hasn't JR East thought about painting a few E231-1000 or E233-3000 trainsets assigned to the Tokyo-Atami run in the full Shonan colors like they did to a 185 EMU some time ago.

Recoloring the suburban type of those stainless steel cars would be only doable by using vinyl wrapping, because it can stick to the body in a very long time (as Tokyo Metro successfully did it with the new Ginza Line 1000 series EMU), but easily removable. However, the front part of driving cars (including window and its surroundings) would require a bit more difficult work, as the front part is not easily doable - perhaps it really needs the usage of color paint for this one...

 

By the way, in official documents of JR East there is no -1000 subseries inside the E231 series. Instead, it is named as "E231系近郊型" (E231 series suburban type), to differing it from the commuter types (E231-900, E231-0, E231-500 and E231-800). Also, there are many subseries that applied to the whole group, which consists:

 

E231-1000

E231-1500

E231-3000

E231-3500

E231-6000

E231-8000

E231-8500

 

For the more detailed information of why there are so many subseries number inside the E231 series suburban type (of course in Japanese), please check the E231 series page on Japanese Wikipedia

 

Cheers,

 

Arya