Vintage Kato (and others)

[Welshbloke]

Is there a website devoted to early Kato models? Since buying the Kokuden 103 Series (based on '60s tooling) I've become intrigued as to what else they were making in the early days. I've also spotted a lone orange SaHa 103 for sale which I suspect to be original, as it's obviously the same tooling. Just wondering if anyone else is interested in the older products of Japanese manufacturers?

[cteno4]

a few of the east penn club guys are big on the early tomix stuff. they have a collection i think now of all the tomix catalogs! both richs are on the forum usually. some of the history is up on the easy trolly site and you can contact them with questions on the yahoo tomix group.

 

http://www.trainweb.org/tomix/

 

cheers

 

jeff

[Densha]

What year are we counting back to actually? When did Kato and Tomix (amongst others) start their production of N gauge trains?

[Welshbloke]

That was another question I had!

 

I can find plenty of date information for my Marklin HO collection but there just isn't much out there for N, aside from a US site I found (which as you might expect concentrates on North American models).

 

Interesting to see the early Tomy four-wheel wagons on there, are they still using the same tooling today? I see some familiar-looking wagon types and loads from browsing Plaza Japan's ebay shop.

 

It looks as though the earliest item I own is a Tomix EF64 with the spring drive, although that was apparently made from 1981-2009 so the only reason I have for thinking mine to be an earlier example is the box. The printing is different to that on Tomix items I know to have been made around the late '00s.

[POMU]

a few of the east penn club guys are big on the early tomix stuff. they have a collection i think now of all the tomix catalogs! both richs are on the forum usually. some of the history is up on the easy trolly site and you can contact them with questions on the yahoo tomix group.

 

http://www.trainweb.org/tomix/

 

cheers

 

jeff

Jeff

  We only need the first Tomy catalog circa 1975 to have them all.  All the early Tomy products -  I have, except the HN-503 and the HN503-3 - both extremely rare.  All the Tomy and Tomix freight cars listed on the site from 1975 to 1986 are in our possession.

POMU

[POMU]

That was another question I had!

 

I can find plenty of date information for my Marklin HO collection but there just isn't much out there for N, aside from a US site I found (which as you might expect concentrates on North American models).

 

Interesting to see the early Tomy four-wheel wagons on there, are they still using the same tooling today? I see some familiar-looking wagon types and loads from browsing Plaza Japan's ebay shop.

 

It looks as though the earliest item I own is a Tomix EF64 with the spring drive, although that was apparently made from 1981-2009 so the only reason I have for thinking mine to be an earlier example is the box. The printing is different to that on Tomix items I know to have been made around the late '00s.

Welshbloke, Densha

  Since Kato's 50th anniversary is 2015, I would suspect they started in 1965, but not sure.  Tomy started in 1975 then became Tomix  in 1976 - both with a collaboration with Bachmann USA.  The Tomy molds were sold to Kawaii which is now Popondetta.  Tomix has a very strange system for numbering and their boxes which often repeat.  Hard to figure out. Early spring worm drives were typical for Tomix. 

POMU

[cteno4]

You are all mad, utterly mad! Wow that's a great collection, I knew you were collecting a lot!

 

Jeff

 

Jeff

  We only need the first Tomy catalog circa 1975 to have them all.  All the early Tomy products -  I have, except the HN-503 and the HN503-3 - both extremely rare.  All the Tomy and Tomix freight cars listed on the site from 1975 to 1986 are in our possession.

POMU

[railsquid]

Welshbloke, Densha

  Since Kato's 50th anniversary is 2015, I would suspect they started in 1965, but not sure.

 

Yup, 1965. The Kato store in Tokyo (I wandered through there yesterday ) has a small display of some of their early models, including these coaches (OHA 31 or something), which were apparently their first ones; they've recently re-released them for about 600 yen each.

 

 

[railsquid]

I also acquired this magazine recently which gives some nice background info on vintage products from various manufacturers (very helpful when dating some of the old bits and pieces I've picked up):

 

[Welshbloke]

Here are a couple of things I found on ebay UK which provoked the question:

 

A tidy-looking five car DMU (which I'd be sorely tempted to buy if next month's train budget wasn't going to be swallowed by a powered 165 Series and some assorted bits)

 

What I now think is a MoHa 102 (contemplating buying it, despite the fact that I doubt one ever turned up alone between, say, a KuMoNi and a KuMoYa and it wouldn't be much use for extending a Kokuden set as I'm unlikely to ever find the MoHa 103 to go with it).

[Densha]

I decided to consult the Japanese wikipedia a bit, and it seems Kato's first factory opened in 1957. At first they started producing parts (such as bogie parts) for other H0 gauge manufacturers. Development for complete N gauge models started in 1963. In 1965 Kato released their first N gauge models: a C50 steam locomotive and OHA31 passenger coach. In 1966 Kato released a 103 series model and their first N gauge track system.

 

Source: https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%96%A2%E6%B0%B4%E9%87%91%E5%B1%9E

[railsquid]

Here are a couple of things I found on ebay UK which provoked the question:

 

A tidy-looking five car DMU (which I'd be sorely tempted to buy if next month's train budget wasn't going to be swallowed by a powered 165 Series and some assorted bits)

 

What I now think is a MoHa 102 (contemplating buying it, despite the fact that I doubt one ever turned up alone between, say, a KuMoNi and a KuMoYa and it wouldn't be much use for extending a Kokuden set as I'm unlikely to ever find the MoHa 103 to go with it).

 

I have to admit I like old junky stuff, but for that sort of money I'd expect something in as-new condition.

[katoftw]

I'd agree.  If the lights aren't working, then we are close to "junk" terrority.  For me it is worth 20-25 pounds.

[kvp]

Those trains are really near junk condition, especially that the dmu set can still be bought new from Japan.

 

For the orange car:

Sadly the Kato kokuden car is not usable for my Tomytec 123 series cars as i couldn't fit the Tomytec TN close couplers on it without extensive modifications. (not to mention the car costs a bit too much) The UK ebay has a tendency of having european brand new prices for old used japanese items.

 

On the other hand, i do have some really old Tomix trains, mostly from the early 1980-ies and they still work fine. (i just had to take apart and assemble one locomotive 4 times to get the spring right, since then it runs relatively quietly and i had to replace the wheels on a passenger car with new Tomytec ones) I'm still looking for a cardan shaft end piece for my Kato 305 and 4 bogie pickup springs for a spring drive Tomix dd51 i got as an extra with a bunch of freight cars.

 

ps: Does anyone have a spare Kato 305 motor frame or cardan shaft assembly? (i think i could do away with the cardan by adding an extra motor frame under the non motorised half) A whole locomotive would be ok too, even with a damaged shell, if the price is ok.

[Welshbloke]

I think prices here are mostly a product of rarity. The sellers are banking on people thinking that they either pay that or don't have the item at all. Ordering from Japan is risky as if you get stung for VAT plus the extortionate admin charge then any saving evaporates - I might order another Kokuden set that way, as even if it does get held for ransom I'll only have paid the same as I would here and it'll probably arrive sooner.

 

Should that DMU have lights? I assumed it was too early for them but have no idea when lighting became standard in Japanese models. I'll agree that if it was a bit cheaper I'd pounce on it, non-functional lighting usually just means that the wheels and pickups need a good clean or some careful bending to make the contacts touch reliably.

 

I enjoy buying non-runners and repairing them, but it's risky with Japanese models here as parts can often be non-existent. I have a Tomix 211 Series which needs a new pantograph, new cardan shaft, new worm and a couple of gears for one bogie (as it stands only one end of the power car is driven), and the EF64 is only powered at one end as I mangled one of the springs while trying to swap them onto a new motor. In the latter case I did try to order one from HobbySearch but they've been out of stock for years, and probably won't come back.

 

Mind you, you can easily buy what looks to be a mint and boxed set only to find that it has problems. Take the Kato 117 Series where I had to replace a diode and work out why the motor kept overheating. It does now seem to be working properly, and gained Tightlock couplers last week.

 

One very unexpected source for new items I've found is Amazon Marketplace. The 165 Series dummy set was about half the UK price, although I'll buy the powered set from a dealer in the UK in case of problems as the saving isn't as dramatic.

[railsquid]

Should that DMU have lights? I assumed it was too early for them but have no idea when lighting became standard in Japanese models.

 

Not sure; based on the few items I have which are definitely 70s products, lighting was not available then, but is evidently included from the 1980s onwards (mind you I have an early 80's Farish model with directional lighting, much to my surprise).

[Welshbloke]

That's very unexpected, which model is it? I don't think I encountered any Farish models with factory-fitted lighting until after the Bachmann takeover. Dapol introduced it fairly early in their N scale range, which gave Farish a much-needed kick in the backside to improve their products.

Edited September 29, 2015 by Welshbloke

[Fenway Park]

Hi

 

The early Kato Kiha 82 series does not have directional lighting installed. You had to buy the light as a Kato spare part and install them in each cab car. 

 

Kato have upgraded the 82 series and the new one is superior.

[railsquid]

That's very unexpected, which model is it? I don't think I encountered any Farish models with factory-fitted lighting until after the Bachmann takeover.

 

Brass-geared 47, model number 8004.

[Welshbloke]

Ahh, that explains it. All my Farish had plastic gears (which is why most of it no longer runs, as they cracked in storage). Evidently a cost-cutting measure if they used to use brass and have lights!

 

Back to the original subject, Rails of Sheffield have just listed a load of older Unitrack on ebay UK along with a couple of matching station sets. The overwhelming colour seems to be brown, rather than the grey of the current range. Unfortunately prices are those of brand-new packs!

[railsquid]

That's Rails of Sheffield for you. They are sometimes open to offers; experience varies.

 

The 47 is actually a nice little model for its age/era. That reminds me, must get in touch with Bob at BR Lines again, need to order some gears for the rest of the Farish collection...

[Welshbloke]

The one I miss most is the London Transport version of the GWR pannier. It was a limited edition and mine ran pretty well, until I took it out of the box last year only to get the all too familiar "clonk-clonk-clonk-whirrr" of a cracked axle gear...

 

I know Dapol offer a far better model of the same loco but still!

 

Rails pricing is weird. They're still offering buy one get one free on packs of 124mm straights (or 64mm straights or the pack of assorted short straights, but the 124s are the most useful), but their prices for used kit are barking IMO.

[beakaboy]

Hi guys. can anyone shed any light on these tankers. The seller is stating they are Atlas, but sure look like Kato tankers. I have never seen the Shell versions and am quite keen to bid. Just wondering when they may have been released. Cheers

 

 

[Welshbloke]

They look remarkably like the Kato 808-1 with some extra transfers added.

 

Mind you, I think Kato have passed off Japanese stock as American in official production before now. There's a pack of assorted freight cars with what look suspiciously like Japanese gondolas in (I don't know of an American design with raised angular ends). If my 808-2 didn't have Japanese lettering on the sides it'd blend into a 1950s US freight train without anyone noticing, despite (presumably) being a model of a Japanese tanker.

[Fenway Park]

Not sure if the real wagon was based on a US Army import as JNR had. few bogie tank wagons after WW2.

 

Agreed that Kato in the early days passed of repaints of their models for Con Cor among others.