Oddball formations

[Welshbloke]

I went rummaging on Youtube for videos of 165 Series and found...this:

 

 

I have no idea what's going on here, specifically why there's a three car 165 Series coupled inside a 103 Series. It is eminently modellable though, if the Kato "Kokuden" sets can handle an extra three cars in the form of the 165 Series add-on set. Naturally I'm going to try, as this looks a good excuse to buy a blue 103 to keep my yellow one company...

 

What unusual combinations have other people found?

[railsquid]

Doesn't say in the video or comments what's going on; there seem to be passengers and there's a round headmark so maybe some kind of excursion?

 

IIRC the Kokuden power cars can't really deal with more than one extra car in a set.

 

Search "混結編成" for more combinations...

[katoftw]

I'd probably use proper non-kokuden 103s from Kato if you are gonna pair with 165s for example.  You get lights.  A stronger motor.  And you get tight lock couplers to match each set.

[SuRoNeFu 25-501]

The "混結編成" (konketsu-hensei) keyword is not the only ones that is useful for searching "oddball" formations. Try to use "珍ドコ列車" (chin-doko ressha) keyword in Google, and you will find more strange formations :laughing6:

 

An example of "very legendary chaotic train" (as referred by some of Japanese railfans) that sparked the name "珍ドコ列車" is described in the following pictures:

 

 

 

The train was operated as a special train (臨時列車) by JR West's Hiroshima Division between 1989 and 1991. But somehow the passenger coach depot of Hiroshima Division (Shimonoseki General Rolling Stock Plant / 下関総合車両所) was short on proper coaches for operating the train (as many of the coaches were in use by Asakaze 2 and 3 that runs between Tokyo and Shimonoseki), so they decided to use coaches that are not in regular service (both sleeper and seating coaches), with MaITe 49-2 observation coach that preserved by JR West in operational condition is placed on the rear end (facing toward Osaka) of train.

 

This caused a large number of railfans in Japan to be surprised, as this is NOT a "scrap formation" (廃車回送編成) that used by the company for taking coaches toward the workshops for scrapping, but "regularly operated formation" (営業用編成), which carried passengers.

 

Also, since the formation is very strange (hence the usage of word "珍", which is read as "chin" in on'yomi, and "mezurashii" in kun'yomi), the railfans began to call the train as "珍ドコ列車" (I don't know what the exact meaning of the name, but in my rough translation it would have the meaning "strange train"). This term is later becoming the standard term for referring any trains that formed in irregular formations (different body, different windows, different livery, etc)   :laughing6:    :laughing6:

 

Cheers,

 

Arya.

Edited September 23, 2015 by SuRoNeFu 25-501

[velotrain]

Not Japan, but in the early years of Amtrak they operated the "Rainbow Fleet".

 

More images from the early 70's here:

 

http://www.bcoolidge.com/Trains%20Amtrak%2071-75%20Page.htm

 

 

 

[SuRoNeFu 25-501]

Every country does have oddball formations. In Indonesia, oddball formations are only happened on trial runs (primarily for coaches that almost ready to be outshopped from workshops after undergoing scheduled overhaul). It was nicknamed by a number of railfans in Indonesia as "KLB Ekspres Apa Aja Ada" (in English it can be translated as "Anything Available Special Train")

[kvp]

At least we know that the 103 and 165 series can be run together mixed. Btw. this sandwiching is pretty common nowdays too, when for example two half sets of one color 233 series moves a single half set of other color 233 in the middle. For the 103+165 on the video, this could be as simple as a requirement of having ATS equipped cabs on both ends, but they wanted cross seating for the passengers.

 

If mixed colors make a train odd, then pretty much any international train running around in eastern Europe is odd:

http://img.index.hu/imgfrm/0/8/6/8/BIG_0013210868.jpg

The usual rule is that every country a train runs through will offer cars for the service and they are ordered by type (like having the sleepers in one group) or destination (for direct cars that are part of multiple trains) and not paint. This is strange in Japan or in the US, where passenger rolling stock is not interchanged, but pretty common on conventional lines in Europe. (HST-s are always in fixed formations, even when they are running on conventional lines)

[Welshbloke]

Yep, I have a few IC/EC coaches in HO scale. The loco-hauled expresses with stock from multiple countries are a good way of avoiding duplicated running numbers and dealing with the fact that manufacturers are often patchy where it comes to things like restaurant cars, Marklin are terrible for making (for example) Eurofima 1sts and 2nds in OBB livery but none of the other stock to build a train with them. Running as an '80s Eurocity service with a DB restaurant car solves the problem.

 

It's just surprising to see the same in Japan, for some reason I've always pictured JR as a very homogenous sight, where you get one type of EMU on this line, a different type on that line, a set of blue sleeping cars with gold banding, and so on.

 

I have Tightlocks on order for the Kokuden set I already own (well, it's actually having the leftovers after I equip a 117 series and the cab ends of the 165 add-on set, but still) so it'll cost me nothing to have a go. Was planning to buy another one anyway so this has helped me pick a colour!

[westfalen]

I caught this going through Mori in Hokkaido on 21st June 2006.

[Hokutosei]

This is the spanish version of a curious formation:

 

http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/es/car/10000/B11x-10200/RENFE_Talgo_refuerzo_1.jpg

 

Given the almost indeformable nature of Talgo formations (cars can be added or taken out only at special workshops with a complex procedure), at peak times a number of 10000 series passenger coaches (based in SNCF's Corail coaches) were added at the head of a Talgo Pendular formation, after the locomotive (it couldnt be done at the end of the Talgo formation due to incompatibility in electric systems between the coaches and the Talgo cars). So the difference in height between both types of cars made this kind of formation a curious sight.

[katoftw]

About a year back on the I-play-on-the-floor-railway, I put all my KAto formations together to make one giant consist.  E655 + imperial car minus a end car, E259 Narita Exp, 321 series minus end cars, 313 series, 885 series minus end cars, and a 883 series minus a end car.

 

Need less to say, the local area was browning out like Indonesia's railway, as the power supply wasn't handling the 6 motor cars pulling 28 total cars along.  :laughing3:

[SuRoNeFu 25-501]

And your train got a sudden power loss due to that strange formation :))))

[Densha]

If mixed colors make a train odd, then pretty much any international train running around in eastern Europe is odd:

http://img.index.hu/imgfrm/0/8/6/8/BIG_0013210868.jpg

Not only international trains in eastern Europe look odd, but those in western Europe too:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/the_knitter/14812845061/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lesley001/18532939415/

This is the hourly intercity service between Amsterdam (Netherlands) and Brussels (Belgium). The coaches are supplied by the Dutch railways, but the livery was changed several times in the past few years and still not all coaches are painted in the new blue-yellow they have now chosen definitely. The locos are supplied by the freight division of the Belgian railways, because the passenger division doesn't have locos for international use, and as the locos are leased from multiple leasing companies they all end up in different liveries.

 

But to be honest, pulled trains with coaches in different liveries aren't that strange at all in Europe. In Japan there's barely any passenger coaches left at all, without even considering livery. That said, it's still very much fun seeing strange  combinations of any trains. This one for example is pure gold: http://makotin.fc2web.com/dd202007-01.html

[railsquid]

I'd argue that international trains in Europe with mixed coach formations are quite normal as it's the way the system works.

[ToniBabelony]

I'd argue that international trains in Europe with mixed coach formations are quite normal as it's the way the system works.

 

Seeing a single livery formation of (push-/)pulled coaches train in Europe is more rare to see than a mixed one. Especially in long-distance services. xD

[SuRoNeFu 25-501]

This one for example is pure gold: http://makotin.fc2web.com/dd202007-01.html

Ah, this is another example of "珍ドコ列車", even it appears on Google (if you search using "珍ドコ列車" keyword) :laughing3: :laughing6:

[kvp]

A hungarian example with emu-s:

http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/big/5nwn-ln.jpg

http://iho.hu/img/vasut/1309/130900_lotto/rammpmidi/IMG_9823__130911_SOR__Bmxt201__k.jpg

http://iho.hu/img/vasut/1311/131127_60/duna/IMG_8050__131206_Kunszentmiklos-Tass__BVhmot201_Bmxt201__k.jpg

(the control systems of the Bvmot/Bvhmot/BDvmot trains are compatible, so it's possible to make commuter/local/express hybrid sets, like a mixed 101/113/165 with whatever cab, motor and trailer cars that managed to pass inspection that day)

 

The normal sets:

http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/big/5nwn-xu.jpg (express)

http://www.vonatka.hu/images/villanyok/motorok/mav/bdvmot/bmxt015_bdvmot015mav_01.jpg (commuter)

[Ochanomizu]

Hello Mr kvp,

 

The Hungarian trains have steps inside the door?  If so, how does a wheelchair-bound passenger access the train?

[kvp]

Yes, all high floor trains have steps (even the RailJets) and usually each train has a baggage/bike section where there is a fold out wheelchair lift. It's even retrofitted into some of the museum stock, but i've seen many times station staff using the old mobile ramps. More recent urban/suburban stock (flirts and talents) are actually 100% low floor and even older ones (desiro-s) are 60% low floor, but the oldest coaches still in regular service were built in 1954. Currently all intercity and international trains are 100% high floor, even DBAG and OBB sets, but most of them carry at least a single combine baggage/bike/passenger car.

 

Some of the lift types:

http://www.szekelyhon.ro/pictures/gyergyo/aktualis/2010_augusztus/kerekesszek_003_b.jpg

http://uzletietika.hu/kepek/cikk_kep/2750mav_akadalym.jpg

http://www.railway-technology.com/contractor_images/7272/images/202293/large/MBB__2.jpg

[Densha]

Now this is an odd formation: http://rail.hobidas.com/rmn/sp/archives/2011/08/jre2n21e926.html

 

Some more pics here: https://twitter.com/zunyanma/status/647778109878464513

[SuRoNeFu 25-501]

Now this is an odd formation: http://rail.hobidas.com/rmn/sp/archives/2011/08/jre2n21e926.html

 

Some more pics here: https://twitter.com/zunyanma/status/647778109878464513

It seems that the inspection car (E926-13) was temporarily coupled to E2 series EMU (trainset number: N21) due to the other cars of E926 series inspection EMU (trainset number: S51) were temporarily removed from service for regular inspection (which is written as "検査入場中" on the Hobidas website).

 

But well, this is a very strange moment... :read2:

[Welshbloke]

Back to the original, I tried the Kokuden plus 165 today. Minimal slipping and it managed the extra three coaches fairly happily. Wouldn't like to see what happened if it came across a gradient, but an oval of 282mm radius curves on the kitchen table didn't worry it.

[railsquid]

Aha, my previous statement about the power car not handing more than an extra coach is in respect of gradients, which feature on my layout.

[Welshbloke]

Yep, at the moment I mostly run on an elevated loop to keep away from cat hair, so gradients aren't a problem!

 

It shouldn't be impossible to swap a couple of wheelsets on the Kokuden sets for some with traction tyres, it looks like a standard Kato chassis apart from that. The full 103 Series Kato offer differs from the one in the video by not having a KuMoHa with pantograph, so it wouldn't be able to produce the same scene.

[SuRoNeFu 25-501]

Probably the ones that you mentioned (103 series that not having KuMoHa with pantograph) is the later batch of 103 series trains, because in the mid-1970s JNR changed part of 103 series' electrical component formation. This resulted in the fact that all of the motor cars were reformed to be fully concentrated on the intermediate car, instead of having one of driving car being equipped with motor car).

 

Also, the driving car design was changed to accommodate the usage of ATC on Yamanote and Keihin-Tohoku Lines, resulting in the birth of "High-cab KuHa 103" (クハ103形高運転台), which featured a higher front window, revised headlight design, and more. Although the driving car was firstly designed for used by ATC-equipped lines (excluding KuHa 103-1000 and 103-1200, which are specially designed for running inside the Eidan Tozai Line (KuHa 103-1200) and Chiyoda Line (KuHa 103-1000)), but non-ATC variant of this KuHa 103 was later introduced by JNR.

 

Cheers,

 

Arya