Mitsubishi reveals new train for the Nippori - Toneri line

[Ronny]

I found this news.

http://www.railjournal.com/index.php/rolling-stock/mitsubishi-reveals-new-tokyo-suburban-trains.html?channel=529

[trainsforever8]

The interior is very nice! 

[Mudkip Orange]

Very not bad.

[railsquid]

I was wondering why they need new trains when the line's only a few years old - evidently to keep up with increasing demand.

 

However I must say that line wins my personal prize for the most uninteresting one in Tokyo - boring "new transport" rubber-tyred "trains" and nothing to see apart from the usual Tokyo sprawl.

[bikkuri bahn]

Not really a fan of AGT systems either, but encouraging that the system is gaining passengers.  I wonder if it will continue to the point that they will regret choosing that mode instead of one with greater capacity, such as monorail or full metro.

[railsquid]

That's a good question... I seem to recall that the platforms were longer than the trains, providing potential for expansion, but might be confusing systems.

 

I do wonder about the Tama Monorail, it seems quite crowded every time I use it, and that's outside of peak times.

[katoftw]

I wonder if they'll ever extend the line further north?  Still a lot of areas north missing out on rapid public transport

Edited September 9, 2015 by katoftw

[railsquid]

I suspect that depends on how much Saitama Prefecture is willing to cough up - the line runs almost up to the border.

[Mudkip Orange]

I think it's a credit to the Japanese that they build full-scale line haul transit systems using technologies that Westerners are generally afraid to deploy outside of a toy/airport context. 

[kvp]

The original AGT was invented in Canada and in Europe the classic tram is more popular. (up to 6 car trains) The rubber tire AGT is only good if you want quiet operation on elevated tracks running close to buildings. The rest of the world is not as crowded as japanese cities. A 4-6 car AGT is actually around a normal european tram in capacity or a 2-3 car commuter emu or light metro. Same capacity, different form factor and speed.

 

The new sets do look cool though! I also like the single axle bogie based steering system.

[Mudkip Orange]

No, the original AGT was invented in Pittsburgh. Bombardier bought the technology from Westinghouse after the Port Authority failed to fund the initial line.

 

[kvp]

Most japanese AGT systems use a side guide channel, like this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_Zoo_Domain_Ride

compare it with the Yurikamone in Tokyo:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yurikamome

and not the center beam guide technology, that is used in Sapporo:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sapporo_Municipal_Subway

and of which the first prototypes are visible on the film above.

 

Both technologies are viable, but the Yurikamome like system seems to be much cheaper to construct and maintain as there are less parts and the guideway is more simple. The downside is that the single axle bogies only allow shorter cars but on the upside this allow sharper curves as there is very little overhang.

[Mudkip Orange]

If we're going to lump together automated systems with driver-operated rubber tired systems (like Sapporo), we ought to give credit to the French, who started running RT trains in 1951.

 

 

[miyakoji]

No, the original AGT was invented in Pittsburgh. Bombardier bought the technology from Westinghouse after the Port Authority failed to fund the initial line.

 

Such a great vid. Ah, what could have been...

[kvp]

The french were (and still are) cheating. Those metro trains have steel guide wheels running above (sometimes on) steel rails. This combines the squeeking of the flanges with the sound and smell of burnt rubber, especially during summers on open sections.

 

On the other hand, the Yurikamome and other typical japanese AGT systems are either automated or not, as about half of them are driver operated and the other half is fully automatic. The canadian system was originally automatic but got a driver for the zoo installation. The common part is the concrete guide channel and the method of single axle bogie steering. The center beam system uses a different and more complex method to stay on the tracks and turnouts are way more complex than the original zoo ride's swinging turnout beams or the yurikamome's side mounted guidewheel turnouts. Both are relatively simple and actually very fast. The center beam system is slower and more complex. The most complex and least usable is the french one where the rubber tires have a full metal wheel on metal rail backup system, which makes it very redundant and way too complex for the benefits. (but at least backwards compatible with classic trains)

 

The oldest operational public japanese system was afaik the expo '75 system, which used the same technology (steering, traction and control) we see today on various japanese agt systems. It's a direct descendant of the Dashaveyor system.

 

More info here:

http://www.kobelco.co.jp/engineering/products/traffic/agt/okinawa01.html

and the original 4 AGT development companies:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transpo_'72#AGT_systems

 

So far it seems Bendix-Dashaveyor went out of business just before 1975 and the first japanese system to use their technology was built in 1975 by a local company. I think Japan is a country that has the right density and urban distances for smaller scale people movers to exist with very little space for the usual heavier systems like trams and light metros and no street capacity for trolleybuses and other road based alternatives and absolutely not enough drivers to run them manually.

[Ronny]

The French system had been chosen to permit steeper slopes than a classic subway

[Kabutoni]

The French system had been chosen to permit steeper slopes than a classic subway

 

Not only that, but also less movement under the  foundations of buildings, as it runs quite near surface. From my experience in Paris, the tire operations definately make a difference in vibration. Next to that, a cool sound. I mean, not even the coolest hip hop railway nerd band can get around the rubber squeaking:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8M9_Uhd81A

[kvp]

There are two separate french systems. One is the rubber wheels with center steel guideway (developed in the US) and the other is the rubber wheels next to steel wheels system designed in France. The system installed in Japan is good, especially in snow, but the system used by the Paris metro is simply braindead.

 

Paris metro bogie: (note the conventional steel wheels used for turnouts)

Sappro metro: (with center guide beam and no steel rails or wheels)

And let's compre this with the Yurikamome:

This picture has 3 single axle bogies next to each other (and another 3 behind them) and they still have less parts than the two above. Also, thanks to the wheels turning independently to each other, there is no wheel slip in curves, which is handled by wheel curvature in steel wheeled systems and not at all by rubber tire systems with 2 axle bogies. This reduces tire and rolling surface wear and noise.

[Mudkip Orange]

KVP has convinced me that the lion's share of Japanese systems, Yurikamome included, are indeed direct descendants of the Bendix-Dashaveyor AGT, whose only North American installation was indeed at the Toronto Zoo.

 

However, I'd still argue that Westinghouse was the first. Most of the AGT/PRT development only kicked into gear after the US UMTA/HUD released a series of reports in the Spring of '68 promoting the concept. That gave us Morgantown, the trAAin, etc...

[kvp]

 

However, I'd still argue that Westinghouse was the first. 

And you are completly right about this. However most of these different systems failed to take off, except in Japan, which in many cases has the last existing installations of some more exotic systems from monorails to AGT-s. Some of them (quite suprisingly) works prefectly in their current environment.

[katoftw]

Is't there a tyred train just started in Canada somewhere?