nobori vs kudari

[miyakoji]

I think of nobori and kudari, usually translated as up and down per British parlance, as toward and away from Tokyo, regardless of actual location. However, I've recently seen a few things that are contrary to this.

I was looking at the ekikara.jp page for Nagoya Station, and noticed that the Chuo West Line out to Nakatsugawa is shown as kudari. This direction would get you to Tokyo, eventually. So, I started to think there is more to it than just direction. Nagoya to Tokyo via the Tokaido Main Line must be less track distance, so if you were on the far west end of the Chuo, they'd expect you to go to Nagoya and then on to Tokyo.

Sure enough, it's 366km via the Tokaido Main Line versus 396.9km via the Chuo.

It seems to follow then that if you were up (or rather down) the line, say at Narai, east would be nobori. At this point, it's 243.2km to Tokyo. Much closer than backtracking to Nagoya, then to Tokyo. Well, from Narai toward Shiojiri, it's still kudari.

As it turns out, anywhere on the Chuo West line, the direction of Nagoya is up. On the Chuo East line, Tokyo is up. At Shiojiri, both directions on the Chuo are up :icon_scratch:.

At Wakayama, there are express services from Kyoto/Osaka on the Hanwa Line continuing on to Shingu on the Kise Line. Osaka to Wakayama on the Hanwa Line is down. But then continuing on to Shingu on the (physically same) Kise Line is up. So trains crossing this border change track direction en route, however it appears that they don't change numbers.

Another interesting one is the Musashino Line. The line's direction designations are consistent: toward Nishi-Funabashi it's down, toward Fuchuhommachi it's up. I'd expect it to be the opposite since Nishi-Funabashi is closer to Tokyo, but at least it's consistent :).  Plus, there are trains originating at Higashi-Tokorozawa which travel kudari to Nishi-Funabashi and then enter the Keiyo Line and continue on to Tokyo. Down to Tokyo!  At least in this case it changes train number, so I assume its final approach to Tokyo is up.

What are the actual rules for this?

Obligatory links:

• ekikara.jp list of lines at Nagoya Station: http://ekikara.jp/newdata/station/23105011.htm . Third pair is for the Chuo Line, showing the direction of Nakatsugawa as down
• ekikara.jp list of lines at Shiojiri Station: http://ekikara.jp/newdata/station/20215031.htm
• ekikara.jp list of lines at Wakayama Station: http://ekikara.jp/newdata/station/30201031.htm
• ekikara.jp schedule for Kuroshio #1, train 51M: http://ekikara.jp/newdata/detail/2701121/39071.htm
• ekikara.jp schedule for Musashino Line: http://ekikara.jp/newdata/line/1301371.htm
• ekikara.jp schedule for train 449E/448E from Higashi-Tokorozawa to Tokyo: http://ekikara.jp/newdata/detail/1301371/2538.htm

[Densha]

Ugh why don't they just always call it 「東京方面」 (Towards Tokyo) or something? That's way easier than the nobori and kudari system I've never even really tried to understand. Apparently it's even more confusing than I thought.

[miyakoji]

Yeah, I confused myself several times while writing the post .  I've been working on that for a few weeks now :happy3: .  It does seem to be confusing, and I suspect there's just a lot of exceptions, but maybe someone on the forum will have some insight.

[Sacto1985]

I'm surprised that back in 1987, when the JR Group companies were created, they didn't do the following:

 

JR Hokkaido: towards and away from Sapporo Station

JR East: towards and away from Tokyo Station

JR Central: towards and away from Nagoya Station

JR West: towards and away from Osaka Station (the one in Umeda)

JR Shikoku: towards and away from Takamatsu Station

JR Kyushu: towards and away from Hakata Station

 

Lot less confusion that way.

[kvp]

If it's the same system that is used in Europe and the US, then the main lines have to start at a designated 0 point and go out from there. In the case of Japan this is at the center of the main hall in Tokyo station. Smaller lines should start from one of the larger lines and go out from there. If a line is fully isolated, then one end should be assigned as a starting point. Essentially the up and down directions are based on the change in the line's distance marker numbers.

 

A similar system in New York:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_Subway_chaining

[katoftw]

chaining is pretty common across the globe.

[katoftw]

As it turns out, anywhere on the Chuo West line, the direction of Nagoya is up. On the Chuo East line, Tokyo is up. At Shiojiri, both directions on the Chuo are up :icon_scratch:.

Cos the zero points/locations are at Nagoya and Tokyo.

 

Up = towards, down = away.

Edited May 31, 2015 by katoftw

[bikkuri bahn]

Interesting trivia found on the Japan Private Railways Assoc. website. Tokyo Metro doesn't use nobori or kudari on any of their urban routes.

http://www.mintetsu.or.jp/knowledge/faq/05.html

[bikkuri bahn]

Looking at Meitetsu`s mainline, which is somewhat unusual in that it goes through rather than terminates at its biggest station, the zero kilopost system is used as per the posts above. In this case, Toyohashi is where the zero kilopost is located, so all trains going in the Toyohashi direction are nobori, while those going away(i.e. the direction of Gifu) are kudari.