kkxzd first layout

[Kkxzd]

Hello, I’m just starting on the hobby after looking into it from the outside for some years and got hooked after my last trip to japan where I bought 4 train sets and some rail to test things out.

 

I think I’m settling in featuring a rural layout with a small town, something like youtube user yukikazeful has is really nice. I don’t expect this level of success in my first attempt, but it’s nice to have a nice example of what i’d like. Also I think what I’d most enjoy is to watch the trains run in an automatic fashion using computers.

 

I’m in a conundrum between some things, main one being what’s the best way to feature shinkansen in an urban or rural layout in a nice way.

 

Shinkansen is what first brought me into this. I love prototypical shinkansen. However, while I’ve found beautiful videos of urban and rural layouts, I couldn’t find any convincing layout with dedicated shinkansen. They are all either temporary layouts or just feature a loop. My problem with the loop is that it looks quite boring and unrealistic, even if the loop could be hidden in a certain way, still the fact that in the same field of vision I have two shinkansen viaducts looks too unrealistic, as this to my knowledge doesn’t really happen. So I was thinking I’d be ok just having a shinkansen ‘feature’ in the layout, meaning than I’m happy if the shinkansen just appears somewhere, but I’d like to have the dedicated viaduct (ie doesn’t really need to have a station, yard, full route, etc). So I’m wondering first if anyone has good ideas on how to achieve this in a good way, for example having a viaduct cross the far end of the layout side to side and then go completely underground for it’s loop. Second, any good examples of this? (video, layout or whatever). Ideally I would be happy to have a shinkansen cross it’s dedicated track once in a while without interfering much into the scene.

 

Second concern at this point is regarding what size should my first layout be. I have space at home to fit something up to 3m x 3m (about 8’x8’) easily. However I’d like to be realistic in terms of being able to finish this is a reasonable time. I’ve considerd the HCD design, but I don’t feel I can fit most of what I’d like to do on it. So I’m currently considering 8’x4’ as the maximum I’d like to go. With this size I think I can mostly fit what I’d like to fit and still feel that may be realistic. However, still feels like a large layout, so now sure if the best for beginners, thoughts?

[Eurostar25]

 

Check out this video, they integrate the shinkansen into the layout well, and keep it running on its dedicated tracks.

Not sure of the size however

Edited May 7, 2015 by Eurostar25

[ozman2009]

Hello Kkxzd, and welcome to this forum. What scale will you be working in? My only comment at this stage is to be careful about how far you have to reach across your layout to deal with a derailed train or restart a stalled one. The "normal" standard is said to be about 30" (75cm).

[cteno4]

Kkxzd,

 

Welcome! it is tough to have it all in a 4x8 area and have the perfect scene. That is pretty much the minimum for a small shinkansen loop, so putting the shinkansens in the picture will take up a lot of visual room. You could hide half the shinkansen loop behind a hill or backdrop.

 

One idea might be to do something in the center of the room at like 8x6 and have the front 4' be the scenic layout with a hill/mountain raising up in the rear and behind that a 2' strip for the shinkansen and regular train return and a bit of extra storage yard. This is done in a lot of show layouts to hide the loopy loopy feel.

 

Jeff

[Kkxzd]

Thanks for the responses. To answer the scale question: modelling in N scale, I was reading the N scale forums so much that I forgot this wasn't within the N scale section :)

 

I think that what's depicted in the video is more or less what I was thinking, although I was more thinking about it in the background, something like a viaduct between two mountains in the back corners and once the track enters the tunnels in those mountains, make it slope down to a lower "hidden" level in the layout and just model everything else on top. So the only thing you would see is the viaduct in the back, which would just take as much space as the viaduct width.

 

Regarding the size, as I said before, while I can do bigger, I don't want to over do it and then not being able to finish, I'm really fearing that 8'x4' might be too much already, thoughts on that?

[ozman2009]

8' by 4' in N scale is not an absolutely huge amount of space, presuming that you can comfortably reach all of it.

 

You said you thought of having a mountain in each back corner with a viaduct in between them, for your Shinkansen to run on. If the mountains are in the corners, where are you going to put the ramps down to the lower level?

 

Do you have, or have access to, one of the various track planning packages? Maybe you need to get hold of one and start setting down some ideas. Those packages do force you to be realistic with your ideas and concepts.

[ozman2009]

About one minute after the last post...

 

Maybe you could have a dogbone, single or double track, at the back with the end lobes hidden inside the two mountains and the visible portion in between on a viaduct, for your Shinkansen. The viaduct won't be anywhere near as long as you maybe thought, but I think (and I could be wrong), that the concept is feasible.

[ozman2009]

Another minute later (lol).

 

How do you think you'd use the rest of the space?

[Kkxzd]

ozman2009, I draw the dogbone idea and due to the shinkansen turning distances it isn't really feasible. My other idea kind of works if the rest of the layout is completely flat but you cannot even elevate the viaduct, due to the required sloped otherwise.

 

I think eurostar25 video is the most feasible route, since no slopes are required and it goes completely underground. I don't like it thou, I will give up the idea for this first layout and run shinkansens with the rest of the trains, in the future I may do something bigger.

 

Still don't have a layout, been drafting many ideas, will post when I have some of them more or less finished. I'm working on the station right now, I want it to be in the front.

[kvp]

The japanese way of separating the shinkansen is to elevate it. This means if you plan to run the trains on a viaduct in the background, then you can leave it elevated and run it above the rest of the layout in the foreground too. Maybe even add an elevated station too.

 

If you don't want to clutter the layout with a shinkansen viaduct above everything else, then you can use the hidden and often overlooked feature of shinkansen, mainly that they are double ended and can reverse without turning around. This means that you can add an elevated single or double track viaduct at the back and have a train (or multiple trains) shuttle back and forth across it. The end stations can be hidden beneath the mountains, and you can use an automation unit (like the Tomix one) to run up to 3 trains from a hidden storage yard to the other mountain and back. You can even add R280 canted curves at the back corners (under the mountains) and run the storage track mountain ranges on both sides. This way you will be free to build in the middle, have a shinkansen viaduct at the back between two tunnel portals and have enough space on the sides to run shinkansen up to around 1 meter in length. Just make the mountain tops over the hidden yards removable for easy access.

 

I've drawn two variants, one with a single track vidauct and 3 storage tracks, good for the Tomix automation unit and one with a double track viaduct and 4 storage tracks, which allows up to 4 trains (two stored and two running) with correct side running.

 

[Kkxzd]

kvp, that's certainly a good idea, thanks. I had in fact thought about that possibility, but I discarded it due to the fact that with switching and everything I'd have to use the whole sides with mountains, but I actually like the possibility of doing a shorter one and switch in the straight part as in your second diagram, this way I could even store the train using the curved part of the track and not having to reach the end of the board in the sides. I'll certainly consider it.

 

You're right about the viaducts and that's in fact what made me decide that the loop is not an option, since I would have to climb to much coming from a hidden under the layout loop. And a station in this size is out of the question, I wanted to but the isn't really enough space without having everything too cluttered. 

 

EDIT: attached file, I can store a 4 car shinkansen using the curve, and this way the track doesn't need to go till the end of the board. Since the track is elevated it means I can also reuse that space for the rest of the layout in lower levels. Linking this...

Edited May 11, 2015 by Kkxzd

[katoftw]

If you are running 4 car shinkansens on a 4x8 feet layout, then a oval track would be fine size wise.

Edited May 11, 2015 by katoftw

[Kkxzd]

katoftw, problem is I don't want to do a loop, as I said in my first post, loops look quite boring to me, so I prefer to just have a very small straight track of shinkansen (or nothing at all) than having a loop. A station is out of the question at this point, I wanted that, but I decided it's for another time/layout.

[cteno4]

Kkxzd,

 

I would really think of adding the extra couple of feet behind the 4x8 layout hidden with a backdrop and scenery to hide the rest of the shinkansen loop an create a yard area for other trains or more delayed appearaces of ground level trains for greater effect of it not being loop de loop.

 

Jeff

[katoftw]

I dont see the point in using shinkansens if the are just gonna move around at shunt speeds.

 

Better of just having a static shinkansen viaduct in the back of you layout for effect and have all the fun local/rural stuff in front to play with.

Edited May 12, 2015 by katoftw

[kvp]

 

I dont see the point in using shinkansens if the are just gonna move around at shunt speeds.

Why would you go that slow on a point to point? The trains can speed up in the tunnel and cross the viaduct at full speed, then stop at the end of the track. You don't need prototypical acceleration/deceleration on the hidden tracks.

[katoftw]

I guess so if they are only 4 cars long.

[gerryo]

One other thing I would worry about would be "how much track would you need to have them come to a stop before they hit the bumpers".  This is after they have gone out of view.  I don't think mine come to a stop exactly when I turn off the power.

 

gerryo

[Kkxzd]

As I said, I'm exploring the possibility of "featuring" the shinkansens in a layout of this size in a meaningful way without doing a simple boring loop or dedicating the layout to the shinkansens alone. It doesn't even have to be at full speed, I'd be happy if they are just there. But if after exploring these possibilities I don't find a satisfactory way to do it I may not even feature shinkansens, and that's it.

 

On the other hand, the reason not to go bigger is due to the fact that I would like to also model stuff in the layout, and I don't want to start building in a size which is going to make it impossible to finish. Second reason for limiting size is that I like to solve problems with complicated constraints, so putting this size constraint and trying to find an interesting solution to it is part of the challenge ;)

 

I've found that getting full speed with 4 car shinkansen is almost instant so that wouldn't be a problem, although what's interesting is that in some cases, turning power immediately off made my shinkansens derail due to the sudden change of speed and inertia from the back cars. So something to keep in mind, maybe have to decrease speed very fast, but not instantly.  

[gerryo]

Hi Kkxzd.

 

I seem to be having the same problem as you. Shinkansens really do take over a layout. I have included an 11 foot loop on mine and am now finding that it is really restricting what else I want to model.

 

There is no room left to include a decent sized yard for the ground level trains. I think that without the commuter trains there is not much purpose for the shinkansens. If there is no space possible to connect the Viaducts to ground level except through their own stations then where will they connect.

 

I am in the process of modifying greatly or totally eliminating the viaduct from my layout. Back to the design stage.

 

gerryo

[Martijn Meerts]

My idea to incorporate the shinkansen in the layout is to have a fairly large main station which has some shinkansen track as well, and really only show them going into and out of the station. Much of the rest of the shinkansen loop will be hidden along with 1 or 2 hidden yards, to get variety.

 

Having them only available in the station mean you won't need to run them at high speed, so you can actually enjoy them. They also tend to get noisy at high speeds.

[kvp]

 

I've found that getting full speed with 4 car shinkansen is almost instant so that wouldn't be a problem, although what's interesting is that in some cases, turning power immediately off made my shinkansens derail due to the sudden change of speed and inertia from the back cars. So something to keep in mind, maybe have to decrease speed very fast, but not instantly.  

Imho the Tomix automation unit has a setting for this, so you can set the speed of acceleration and deceleration and it also handles the shuttle operation by using track sensors. (the standard unit can rotate up to 3 trains in shuttle service)

 

If there is no space possible to connect the Viaducts to ground level except through their own stations then where will they connect.

This depends on the setting of the layout. If you don't feature a central station where both shinkansen and local lines stop, then the usual scene is that the shinkansen fly past on their often elevated dedicated right of way and everything else moves below. (or in some cases above) So you can connect them by a station where both stop or just skip the shinkansen station (or hide it as a hidden storage yard) and show them only by letting them run across the scene without interfering with anything. Both solutions work.

 

ps: If you can help it, please try to avoid connecting the standard gauge shinkansen lines to the cape gauge lines. Not only the gauges differ, but the scales too, so even getting the shinkansen side by side with standard gauge trains can look bad. (it's not as visible as 1:160 shinkansen have a huge loading gauge, so they look corrrect even with the 1:150 scale trains, but in fact they should be even larger)

[katoftw]

I have come to a similar conclusion about shinkansens taking up alot of space.  Since I own 4 or 5,  I'm about to not bother with a shinkansen viaduct system, and just run them next to normal trains when I feel the need.

 

I found a layout I really like, and someone posted a link to it this week in another thread...

 

Edited May 14, 2015 by katoftw

[Kkxzd]

Katoftw, that's the layout of the youtube user I referenced on an earlier post in this thread. I really like this layout and have it built for 8'x4'. But I feel I don't want to completely copy it, so I'm looking for variations. Also very special how this person creates so many different environments in such a small place.

 

BTW, anyone know what brand are the stations he is using, and specially, the overpass that spans 3 tracks? I believe the wooden kato overpass (23-224) only supports two tracks.

 

Video: 

[katoftw]

Yeah I wouldn't copy it either.  The fiddle yard at the front I'd be happy to remove most of it.  And being Peco track, you cannot copy it 100% using Kato track as Kato does not have all the pieces necessary to do so.

 

The platforms and station are Kato.  The catenaries are Tomix.  The overpass is either Kato or greenmax, and has been kitbashed with 2 kits to make a wider bridge.

Edited May 15, 2015 by katoftw