Looking for non-specific prototype photos

[velotrain]

I'm toying with building a small layout having an elevated local subway station, combined with a tram stop at street level.  This was triggered by seeing a model photo of the Osaka Subway model 50.  I had this vision of very long subway trains in Tokyo and elsewhere, so was surprised at how good just a 2-car train of the Osaka cars looked.  I realize that a 4-car train would be more realistic, but the 2-car train will work better on the small (2' x 4' ?) layout I'm envisioning.  I'll admit that a large part of the attraction is the colors. 

 

 

 

 

I don't know when these cars were first introduced, and I'm sure they're long since retired, but found a few images of a restored one.  For all I know, it could have been the 50th anniversary.

 

 

 

 

I've seen many photos of elevated mainline stations, but was looking for a source of images showing smaller-scale elevated stations, close enough to a city center (not necessarily Osaka) for the tracks to be elevated, and hopefully with a connecting tram or bus line.  It doesn't have to be a subway, as I imagine a commuter station would be similar.

 

I'm not looking for a particular station to model, but rather wanted to get a sense of them.  Also, I prefer something older, say in the 60's or 70's, up to the end of the Showa period.  Either specific images, or sites with multiple photos would be great.  I've had difficulty finding older / historic images in general, so any tips on what (English) words are effective in a kanji search would be helpful.  I've tried using a decade (60's), and also looking for B&W images, although both of these qualifiers have been widely ignored in my search results.

 

[kvp]

Your 50 series car was in use beween 1969 and 1991, so essentially the Showa period. For images, i would choose a prototype that was elevated back then and look for old photos of it. Then choose another and repeat until you find what you are looking for.

[velotrain]

>  i would choose a prototype that was elevated back then

 

That's why I was asking if anyone knew of a good target for me - I have no idea of what the candidates are.

[bikkuri bahn]

Check out the first few scenes of this video, of the Osaka Municipal Subway No. 4 Line (the current Chuo Line)- it depicts some of the elevated sections near the waterfront and around Bentencho.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVkCJpqZlbA

 

Some scenes from the late sixties and seventies at Asashiobashi Station on the aforementioned Chuo Line:

http://satoyama.in/auto/sharyo/auto327.html

 

*unfortunately many image searches of stations in Japanese turn up images of real estate, as listings are typically grouped according to the nearest railway station that piece of property is located.

Edited April 15, 2015 by bikkuri bahn

[velotrain]

Thanks bikkuri - that video is definitely Showa ;-)  I was surprised to see a one-car "subway".  I also wondered why the stations are so long if they only run one car, but perhaps other lines share the stations.  I think I'll just need to design my own station, as I don't want it to run the whole length of the small layout.  I was thinking more like one block.

 

> *unfortunately many image searches of stations in Japanese turn up images of real estate, as listings are typically grouped according to the nearest railway station that piece of property is located.

 

I noticed this, as I kept getting room diagrams for apartments ;-)

 

I know the Setagaya has a station right underneath a subway/commuter line (don't know if there is also a station on this), so maybe I'll research that.

[kvp]

Many times i look for photos or films of the old rolling stock and the line and stations are usually in the background.

[bikkuri bahn]

 I also wondered why the stations are so long if they only run one car,

 

They are built that way to accomodate longer trains as passenger numbers increase, especially when the stations serve growing suburban locations.

[enodenlover]

I also have this non-powered Tomytec model of the Osaka subway's 50 series cars and I'm currently in the process of turning it into an operating unit. I love rapid transit equipment but, like Velotrain, I was attracted to this particular train by its color scheme. The cream and orange is almost identical to that of the Marmon-Herrington trolleybuses that ran in Cincinnati until about 1963. When I was a kid my family would drive down to KY and NC to visit relatives every year and I always looked forward to seeing those trolleybuses when we passed through Cincy. If the ill-fated never-finished Cincinnati subway had been completed, the trains might have had this same scheme.

[enodenlover]

I finally have this subway train finished and running but Tomytec sure didn't make it easy for me. The required TM-06 power unit came with three different sets of truck side frames but the ones necessary to properly complete this train weren't among them. Since I wasn't willing to settle for a less-than-accurate train, I had to cut the third rail shoe-equipped side frames off of the dummy trucks and sand them down to make them usable. Because of the type of plastic used for the frames I had to try a few different adhesives before I found one that would hold them to the power car's trucks ( a big thumbs up for Gorilla Super Glue. ) The supplied couplers leave a wider space between the two cars than I would like but I can live with it, at least for the time being.

[kvp]

 

I had to cut the third rail shoe-equipped side frames off of the dummy trucks and sand them down to make them usable. 

You were doing it wrong. The good side frames are always included in the box with the trains. (btw. white carpenter's glue works nicely) Also the couplers are not supplied with the model, but in a separate package with the trailer wheels and the motor. The ones on the models are plastic dummies like the wheels. You can also use the Tomix body mount TN close couplers on any train collection set, that would pull the cars flush together.

[enodenlover]

By "supplied couplers" I meant the ones that came with the power unit, sorry I wasn't more specific. However there weren't any third rail-type side frames included with the train or the power unit. Using the ones from the dummy trucks was the only way that I could have accurate ones on the train. It was worth the extra effort though; it's a little beauty that runs very nicely and has quickly become one of my favorites. Thanks for letting me know about the Tomix TN couplers, I'll have to look into those.

[enodenlover]

I've always been a "run 'em right out of the box" type so I've had very little experience making improvements to ready to run trains. Can anyone tell me which set of Tomix TN couplers would be correct for these series 50 subway cars? And which would be more appropriate, truck mounted or body mounted? Too bad that the local community college doesn't offer a class in this kind of thing, I'd be one of the first ones to sign up.

[Socimi]

 

 

That's why I was asking if anyone knew of a good target for me - I have no idea of what the candidates are.

 

Here are some blogs with B/W inspiratioal images from Osaka:

 

http://atamatote.blog119.fc2.com/blog-entry-813.html

 

https://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/hal_rail/20695174.html

 

http://blog.goo.ne.jp/ygcq2712/e/4d76da11c109bf042dc8547429f09f81

 

https://www.tetsudo.com/kefu/onen/255/

 

http://rail.hobidas.com/photo/archives/2007/09/post_66.html

 

(NEW) http://blog.goo.ne.jp/ygcq2712/m/200712

(scroll down to 3/4 of the page)

 

Kita-Osaka Kyuko railway in the 1970s. Basically a northward extension of the Municipal Subway's Midosuji line.

 

http://ttr.b.la9.jp/lib64/expo70_4.htm

 

http://www.ab.auone-net.jp/~azm01/page051.html

 

http://mu3rail.blog.so-net.ne.jp/archive/c35375380-1

(scroll down a couple of posts)

 

https://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/mohane5812001/52736143.html

 

These are from Tokyo:

 

https://www.tetsudo.com/kefu/145/

 

(NEW) http://c5557.kiteki.jp/html/eidan-myougadani1995.htm

 

(NEW) http://c5557.kiteki.jp/html/eidan69-71.htm

 

http://rail.hobidas.com/blog/natori/archives/2016/09/28/

 

Anyone knows what station is the one in the background?

 

http://rail.hobidas.com/blog/natori/assets_c/2016/09/20160928172210-09a6395035f9a0860999dd5357dff866dba1d2d3-31262.html

 

The 60s and 70s are perfect eras for japanese themed subway layouts: hi-rise apartment buildings, highways, subways, "New Towns"* and "Rapid Railways"**, true representatives of the 1960s economic miracle.

 

Personally, i would take inspiration from the northern part of the Midosuji Line and the Kita Osaka Kyuko railway.

 

*Example: Tama New Town  

**Example: the Kita Osaka Kyuko Railway and the Semboku Rapid Railway

 

Edit: Added three more links

Edited June 8, 2017 by Socimi

[velotrain]

Thank you for this Socimi - I will need to digest it later as I am going in search of some I-beams . . .

[kvp]

Anyone knows what station is the one in the background?

 

http://rail.hobidas.com/blog/natori/assets_c/2016/09/20160928172210-09a6395035f9a0860999dd5357dff866dba1d2d3-31262.html

 

It looks like the old Korakuen station on the Marunouchi line before the platforms got extended:

http://www.hakanaki-jokei.com/img_jokei/maru4153-02.jpg

(the main site is unreachable, but the embedded images work)

https://metroarchive.jp/pic_year/year1960/%E5%BE%8C%E6%A5%BD%E5%9C%92%E9%A7%85%E5%A4%96%E6%99%AF-2.html

Edited June 7, 2017 by kvp

[velotrain]

Thanks for the links, but I now accept that my memories are of elevated lines (NYC and Chicago) that predate the development of Japanese subways, and I can't expect a similar infrastructure.

 

This fellow is apparently following a path of building the elevated subway that he wants, but setting it in a late Showa environment.

 

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://layout.client.jp/log22.html&prev=search

 

The blog pages near this (i.e. 20, 21, 23, 24 etc.) also have info on his elevated structure, which has evolved quite a bit from what we first saw of it.

 

http://www.jnsforum.com/community/topic/12654-chicago-l-style-elevated-train-structure/?p=151797

 

I'm still not certain where I eventually wish to go with this, but think I have settled on a modeling approach for the elevated line - developed from what I have seen others do and how I wish to modify it.  Likewise, my station will be a combination of Japanese and American design elements.

[kvp]

Thanks for the links, but I now accept that my memories are of elevated lines (NYC and Chicago) that predate the development of Japanese subways, and I can't expect a similar infrastructure.

There were subways and elevated lines in Tokyo, that were built in the same time frame, but with a different approach. The main pattern seems to be the once common arched brick vidaduct from Europe. The Tokyo metro Ginza line at Shibuya station, the arcades of the Chuo line at Manseibashi and the Yamanote/Tokaido viaduct from Tokyo station to Shinagawa are great and beautiful examples or old Japanese elevated railways. Old paintings show the classic brick arches all around Tokyo with great riveted iron bridges spanning the streets. This is a much older technology than the american wood deck on a steel frame, but imho proved to be more durable in the long run as most of this old infrastructure is still in daily use while the two big american systems lost a lot of their elevated tracks.

[bill937ca]

Try this Google search for Marunouchi line photos:

 

https://www.google.ca/search?q=(%E5%BE%8C%E6%A5%BD%E5%9C%92%E9%A7%85&tbm=isch&tbs=rimg:CYzgUIlzpKR-IjjoiBF8MOmG_1nBY-Dh5h2M78Bv2xFed1vvcDu7gFe76yJBqIeYT--V_1xvBLWBArcb1cs6dh91jNyCoSCeiIEXww6Yb-EY6Crr2EbZOpKhIJcFj4OHmHYzsRhzgHgw2ujNoqEgnwG_1bEV53W-xHskgT2168t6SoSCdwO7uAV7vrIEYw9CkSAzktcKhIJkGoh5hP75X8Rt0wfQKAmPiAqEgnG8EtYECtxvRFgdTzReBg6kCoSCVyzp2H3WM3IEeX-Ee2syrA6&tbo=u&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiD4_6Esa7UAhUp5oMKHVjAA0EQ9C8IHw&biw=1360&bih=638&dpr=1

 

The amusement park at Korakuen Station is still there across the street from the Tokyo Dome on a triangular plot land with city streets on two sides and the Marnounchi line on the third side.  

 

https://www.google.ca/maps/@35.705172,139.7546244,3a,75y,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sIEi6YJVZCSIFHfs_U4O15w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

 

The red 500 series trains are available from Kato 10-1134 but require operation as a three car set with a middle motor car.

 

http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10275113

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Kato-10-1134-Eidan-Subway-Tokyo-Metro-Type-500-Marunouchi-Line-3-Cars-N-scale-/201948599249?hash=item2f051313d1

 

The old Korakuen Station has been modeled with the Greenmax 2173 bus garage kit which has a similar arched roof.

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Greenmax-No-2173-Bus-Garage-1-150-N-scale-/352007349876?hash=item51f545e674

Edited June 8, 2017 by bill937ca

[Socimi]

Here is also some stuff from Nagoya's Higashiyama Line (Opened 1957)

 

http://b1hanabusa.cocolog-nifty.com/blog/2015/07/1985-2eba.html

 

http://blog.goo.ne.jp/oka-hime/e/7193c4107a60d9ec73c4ce276a6af993

 

http://c5557.photoland-aris.com/higasiyamasen1979.htm

 

And Yokohama's Blue Line (Opened 1972)

 

http://jr.famicon.co.jp/category/22228350-1.html

(6 different pages!)

 

If you plan also a catenary-fed metro, go for Kobe's Municipal Subway (1977).

 

http://c5557.kiteki.jp/html/syuutyakueki-440.htm

 

For more stuff i suggest to check out https://metroarchive.jp/ (may take some time to load)

Edited June 8, 2017 by Socimi

[velotrain]

There were subways and elevated lines in Tokyo, that were built in the same time frame

 

 

This is a much older technology than the american wood deck on a steel frame, but imho proved to be more durable in the long run as most of this old infrastructure is still in daily use while the two big american systems lost a lot of their elevated tracks.

 

My understanding was that the earliest subway lines in Japan were built in the 20's - 30's, and I'm aware that Budapest did have a subway a year before Boston - although both were built very late in the 19th century.  I don't know the history of elevated lines in Japan, but the first one in NYC was opened shortly after our Civil War.  "By 1880, most Manhattan residents lived within a 10 minute walk to an el."  I suspect that most of the difference in approach can be accounted for by our building the lines on already developed street grids, while I'm guessing the brick-arch systems had subsequent roads and neighborhoods built up around them?

 

 

I'm not at all sure that last bit is true.  I realize that most of the original elevated lines were taken down in the 40's as neighborhoods became increasingly built up - I recall the 3rd Ave. line being torn down (1955).  My dad had a favorite joke (not sure if it was his or not)  "What's the favorite Christmas song on 3rd Avenue this year?"   "no-el, no-el"

In any event I'd suggest that it isn't so much a case of more durable, as simply less easy to remove  ;-)

 

I'm quite certain that most of the elevated outer lines in Brooklyn, Queens and the Bronx are still there, and that may also be true for northern Manhattan.  It seems unlikely that any elevated lines have been taken underground for a good many decades, but I'll accept any evidence to the contrary.  It would be difficult work due to all the infrastructure and prohibitively expensive - look at the Boston Big Dig as a somewhat recent example (although not train related).

 

I'm less familiar with the situation in Chicago, but we have some forum members in that region who can speak to this.

[cteno4]

The reasons Charles stated for NYC els being removed was what I have heard. Not torn down due to being worn out just moving on and the city changing. Many of the els in the outer Burroughs do look like they are from the 19th century, some quite high in the air and has the feeling at times being on an old time roller coaster with the track kind of perched up in the air and just a little hand rail on one in areas for service! They seem to be cranking right along.

 

Jeff

[bill937ca]

Ever heard of the 110th Street curve?

 

http://warofyesterday.blogspot.ca/2011/05/lantern-slides-upper-west-side-el.html

 

http://warofyesterday.blogspot.ca/2011/03/riding-el-13-110th-st.html

 

https://ephemeralnewyork.wordpress.com/2008/09/19/thrills-and-spills-on-the-new-york-city-el/

 

http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/showpix?nsta=314154

 

http://www.nycsubway.org/wiki/The_9th_Avenue_Elevated-Polo_Grounds_Shuttle

Edited June 9, 2017 by bill937ca

[velotrain]

I'm astounded that anyone would write "I am, your most obedient and humble servant" in 2011 - and not on an official document, at that  ;-)   

 

- comments on middle link

 

Edit:  Make that 2nd link - Bill added some more

Edited June 9, 2017 by velotrain

[cteno4]

Some are old school.

 

Jeff

[kvp]

The japanese elevated lines were mostly pre planned. The Yamanote for example was drawn around the imperial palace and stations built where it crossed a highway. The connecting line through Tokyo station was also built as a masterplan to connect the two largest terminuses with a new through main station right across the road from the castle gates. The style choosen for the building and the railway was european.

 

The stone arch elevated structure is from England and from the start of the railway age as undergrounding steam engines were considered a bad idea and brick arches were great for earlier canal boat aquaducts too.

 

The first electric subway was the Budapest one and it has a steel lattice roof support structure (with nice painted tilework on the walls) that NYC copied successfully. (Budapest also had the first 100% street running tram line and the original route is still in use btw.) There were also an elevated section of a tram line with steel girders and a deck on route 2. Actually it's still there, but the ground level has reached it, so you can only see it from the Danube waterfront side as the buildings are now mostly level with the tram line. (only 3-4 steps remain). Also the wood was replaced with conctete slab track as it's cheaper to maintain. The old 19th century steel supports remain in place.

 

So in short, the american system might be older than the Japanese, but the Japanese construction method comes from England, from the dawn of the railroads. It's designed for heavy steam engines and freight trains, so it was easier to upgrade it to heavy rail usage. This is why most metros in Tokyo are overhead powered heavy rail lines.

 

ps: In NYC, the whole Manhattan EL system was undergrounded (including surface running long distance heavy rail to both main stations), something that still threatens the Tokyo elevated and ground lines too.