First trip to Japan

[SantaFe1970]

Thanks again for all the helpful comments on my original post. In particular, I'll now be doubly alert regarding rush hour in Tokyo. On that matter, any general points regarding evening rush? (Again, its helpful that I will be traveling with a Japanese colleague with her own experience of Tokyo, but more perspectives are always welcome.)

 

And, when I made my original post, I was hoping someone would chime in with something interesting regarding the trains, stations, routes, etc. on our itinerary. With the exception of the Haruka, Skyliner, and the Enoden tram this is all pretty vanilla, commuter-line stuff, but I was hoping I might be stumbling onto something to look out for....

 

If not, no trouble -- (almost) any and every train experience is interesting at some level. (As I type I can hear the horn of one of the many, many freight trains that daily roll through my part of Indiana. Always a cheerful sound, in my book -- though my wife hates it as her number-one sleep interruption. Life is always about perspectives...)

[railsquid]

Thanks again for all the helpful comments on my original post. In particular, I'll now be doubly alert regarding rush hour in Tokyo. On that matter, any general points regarding evening rush? (Again, its helpful that I will be traveling with a Japanese colleague with her own experience of Tokyo, but more perspectives are always welcome.)

 

The evening rush is more spread out so while it's crowded, you don't get quite the same level of insanity as in the morning. (However on the remote offchance you're planning to take the last train on the Chuo line west from Shinjuku, be aware that it can get so packed some people can't get on).

 

 

And, when I made my original post, I was hoping someone would chime in with something interesting regarding the trains, stations, routes, etc. on our itinerary. With the exception of the Haruka, Skyliner, and the Enoden tram this is all pretty vanilla, commuter-line stuff, but I was hoping I might be stumbling onto something to look out for....

 

 

That reminds me, I was going to comment on this:

 

Hikari shinkansen from Kyoto to Maibara

JR Biwako Line from Maibara to Hikone (Hikone castle)

JR Biwako Line from Hikone to Kyoto

JR Nara Line from Kyoto to Tofukuji (Tofukuji temple)

 

I'm not sure if all Hikari trains stop at Maibara, but Kodamas certainly do and won't be any slower. Are you planning the round-trip like that for extra variety? Hikone is nice, one place I always recommend.

 

On the way back, for additional variety you could change to the Keihan system in the vicinity of Otsu and go to Tofukuji via Sanjo, which would get you some on-street metro running. I have no idea if that would be practical from a timetabling/fares point of view for you.

 

Also:

 

 

(optional if time allows) Yamanote Line from Harajuku to Komagome (Rikugien garden)

 

The Rikugien garden is nice, but the entrance is on the far side of the park to the station and I remember it being quite a hike. Given the generally packed schedule and also that it's not a top-rank must-see destination I'd keep it very optional. (If you're looking for a nice park for everyone to relax in, there's a nice large grassy area on the *north* side of Meiji Jingu, which is not technically a park but is fine to use as such provided everyone is nice and civilised and no ball games or loud music, and it's a lot less crowded than the neighbouring Yoyogi Park.

[railsquid]

Tozai Line subway from Monzen-Nakacho to Otemachi (Imperial Palace gardens)

Tozai Line subway from Otemachi to Kayabacho

Hibiya Line subway from Kayabacho to Akihabara (shopping)

 

Takebashi station might be a nicer way of getting to the Imperial Palace gardens.

On the way back, why not walk to Tokyo Station and get the Yamanote/Keihin-Tohoku line to Akihabara? It's a nice walk and you'll get to see the newly-restored station frontage.

[SantaFe1970]

 

I'm not sure if all Hikari trains stop at Maibara, but Kodamas certainly do and won't be any slower. Are you planning the round-trip like that for extra variety? Hikone is nice, one place I always recommend.

 

On the way back, for additional variety you could change to the Keihan system in the vicinity of Otsu and go to Tofukuji via Sanjo, which would get you some on-street metro running. I have no idea if that would be practical from a timetabling/fares point of view for you.

 

That's a great idea to try the Keihan system. I'll see if it makes sense -- I personally would enjoy further variety in our transport. I was deliberately choosing the Biwako Line to return to Kyoto from Hikone so that we would have an early afternoon rest; make sure everybody got off their feet and sat a bit. 

 

And glad to hear that you recommend Hikone. We're going there for the castle, as a comparison with Himeji. In an original draft of the trip I was going to take the group to see the ruins of Azuchi castle, but decided it was too much hiking + not impressive enough a site for this group.

Edited March 28, 2015 by SantaFe1970

[SantaFe1970]

Takebashi station might be a nicer way of getting to the Imperial Palace gardens.

On the way back, why not walk to Tokyo Station and get the Yamanote/Keihin-Tohoku line to Akihabara? It's a nice walk and you'll get to see the newly-restored station frontage.

 

I like this idea, especially since Takebashi is closer to the base of the ruined Edo Castle tower (we will be comparing the remains of that castle today with a description by an early German traveler to Japan, c. 1600). May well choose Takebashi over Otemachi.

 

In an earlier itinerary draft I had us using Tokyo Station more, and even eating there at Ramen Street. But my Japanese colleague is completely unmoved by the 100 year anniversary, or the renovation of Tokyo station. In general, she wants us to avoid the big Tokyo stations as much as possible. But I think I may push to change in the directions you're suggesting...

 

Thanks again for your ideas -- very helpful to me.

[railsquid]

Otemachi station is a dingy hole in the ground (currently being renovated, so will be less dingy in the future, but is a bit of a mess right now). Tokyo Station is easy, especially if you're approaching from the Marunouchi side going to the Yamanote/Keihin Tohoku lines. And much less hassle than changing at Kayabacho (another dingy hole in the ground).

 

BTW there was a proposal floated a while back (1 or 2 years ago) to reconstruct Edo Castle, not sure what became of that but it might be interesting to investigate/mention. And if you want to combine trains and Edo history, maybe you can work in a trip on the Chuo line between Shinjuku and Ochanomizu/Tokyo Station, as part of its route follows the outer moat of the old city; there are even some remnants of the wall next to a couple of the stations.

[SantaFe1970]

Otemachi station is a dingy hole in the ground (currently being renovated, so will be less dingy in the future, but is a bit of a mess right now). Tokyo Station is easy, especially if you're approaching from the Marunouchi side going to the Yamanote/Keihin Tohoku lines. And much less hassle than changing at Kayabacho (another dingy hole in the ground).

 

 

More reason to be pushing for Tokyo Station. Thanks.

[SantaFe1970]

 

 

BTW there was a proposal floated a while back (1 or 2 years ago) to reconstruct Edo Castle, not sure what became of that but it might be interesting to investigate/mention. And if you want to combine trains and Edo history, maybe you can work in a trip on the Chuo line between Shinjuku and Ochanomizu/Tokyo Station, as part of its route follows the outer moat of the old city; there are even some remnants of the wall next to a couple of the stations.

 

Very interesting, both the train idea and regarding the proposal to rebuild Edo Castle. To my knowledge, all the reconstructed feudal castles in Japan are ferroconcrete (such as Osaka). If Edo Castle -- perhaps just the main donjon tower -- were to be rebuilt, it would be interesting to do so using traditional carpentry, masonry, plaster work, etc. Otherwise my opinion might be that it would spoil more than improve.

 

There is a project in France to build a medieval castle from scratch (at Guedelon), using traditional methods and materials. The workers even wear medieval costume! It is taking a long time...

[railsquid]

Very interesting, both the train idea and regarding the proposal to rebuild Edo Castle. To my knowledge, all the reconstructed feudal castles in Japan are ferroconcrete (such as Osaka). If Edo Castle -- perhaps just the main donjon tower -- were to be rebuilt, it would be interesting to do so using traditional carpentry, masonry, plaster work, etc. Otherwise my opinion might be that it would spoil more than improve.

 

Yes, the proposal is to do it "properly" with traditional materials and methods.

 

This is the project website: http://npo-edojo.org/ (no English version by the looks of it).

 

Random links I also came across which look interesting:

 

http://www.library.metro.tokyo.jp/portals/0/edo/tokyo_library/english/edojoh/page2-1.html

http://www.jcastle.info/edo/192

Edited March 29, 2015 by railsquid

[SantaFe1970]

Yes, the proposal is to do it "properly" with traditional materials and methods.

 

This is the project website: http://npo-edojo.org/ (no English version by the looks of it).

 

Random links I also came across which look interesting:

 

http://www.library.metro.tokyo.jp/portals/0/edo/tokyo_library/english/edojoh/page2-1.html

http://www.jcastle.info/edo/192

 

Again, very interesting... A rebuilt main tower would be quite the sight, maybe especially during the rebuilding. I wonder, though, at the various political symbolisms unleashed by the resurrection of the shogun's great tower. In Japan, could this be considered just a heritage project, with no other meanings? Or is the Meiji restoration still too fresh... (As a comparison, the events and meanings of the American Civil War are certainly still very political in the USA.)

 

Thanks very much for the links.

[railsquid]

Again, very interesting... A rebuilt main tower would be quite the sight, maybe especially during the rebuilding. I wonder, though, at the various political symbolisms unleashed by the resurrection of the shogun's great tower. In Japan, could this be considered just a heritage project, with no other meanings? Or is the Meiji restoration still too fresh... (As a comparison, the events and meanings of the American Civil War are certainly still very political in the USA.)

 

To be honest I'm not too au fait with US history (my impressions of the "South" are formed mainly by the "Dukes of Hazzard" ;) ), and wouldn't call myself an expert on Japanese history, but the Meiji Restoration seems to be generally seen as a positive and necessary event (it did after lay the foundations for the modern Japan) and the Tokugawas are generally held in good regard. It's not like the north of the country is still simmering in resentment at events from a century-and-a-half ago.

 

Going slightly off-topic, my general impression of Japan is that the past is further away than it is in other countries. I lived in Berlin for many years before coming to Tokyo, and in Berlin you get a blast of history in your face just by stepping out of the door (where I lived was an area dominated by late 19th-century tenement blocks, some of which had memorial plaques for the people who lived there who were murdered by the Nazis; if you know where to look you can still see traces from that time in 1945 when the Red Army came to town, and the former Wall was just down the road). In Tokyo you're lucky to find something built more than 50 years ago and for the vast majority of the city it's impossible to get a sense of what a neighbourhood would have looked like in say 1890.

 

Veering back on-topic, Edo Castle seems to be long gone from the city's memory as it burnt down long ago (1657 if my understanding is correct). I was unaware that even the foundations still existed until I stumbled across them a few years ago. If it is reconstructed, it will be an interesting curiosity at most.

 

(If you want political controversy related to the reconstruction of a "castle" associated with the ruling elite of a major economic power on the wrong side in WW2, look no further than Germany, where Berlin's "Stadtschloss" - the seat of the former Hoehenzollern imperial dynasty - is being rebuilt after many years of controversy, and many more years after it was torn down by the socialist GDR).

[SantaFe1970]

 

 

Going slightly off-topic, my general impression of Japan is that the past is further away than it is in other countries. 

 

Interesting. And yet, Japan is famous for embracing modernity (industry, including all those trains we love) while preserving strong cultural attachments to the past (all those living national treasures, etc.) One of the things I want to observe on my upcoming trip to Japan is how past and present, temples and shinkansen, co-exist. Side by side? Or overlapping... Is the famous zero-fatalities record of the shinkansen service a modern reflection of very old, very traditional emphases on craftsmanship, responsibility, and discipline?

 

To try and connect back to the official subject of this forum -- trains -- and also to compare experiences in Germany, many years ago (1981) I was traveling with a friend, on the train, through Bavaria. My friend and I were sharing a compartment (Eurofima carriage, perhaps) with an older, German gentleman. Probably irritated at our teenage prattling, this gentleman addressed us in (very good) English, asking us if, as Americans, we had any sense of who we were. As we gaped back at him, he then said, "I can trace my ancestors back to the crusades -- how about you?" As young Americans, of course, we found this sense of identity, rooted in the deep past, nothing short of baffling. And his clear message that people like us, without meaningful personal heritage, should shut up and be quiet in the presence of a man like him was even more baffling...

 

[Edit: The 1981 anecdote above in no way typifies my experience with Germans, overall. Indeed, I have remembered the incident so clearly, I think, precisely because it was so unusual... And yet I think its a great example of how some people -- from all sorts of countries -- carry their sense of history, personal or otherwise, around with them.]

Edited March 29, 2015 by SantaFe1970

[miyakoji]

Interesting indeed. I'd be interested to read what our Japanese members think.

[spacecadet]

As young Americans, of course, we found this sense of identity, rooted in the deep past, nothing short of baffling. And his clear message that people like us, without meaningful personal heritage, should shut up and be quiet in the presence of a man like him was even more baffling...

I don't think Japan's really like that, though. I am not Japanese but I am married to someone who is and I also run a Japanese business as a franchise, so 90% of all my daily dealings are with Japanese people and have been for the last 15 years. So I can tell you what they've all told me.

 

Actually, I'm surprised to hear that about Germany because I am German by ancestry and I think most Germans would have some choice words for such a smug jerk. I can trace my ancestors back to the crusades too, but I neither go around bragging about that nor do I even normally think about it.

 

That's the way Japan is. The traditions of craftsmanship, the apprentice system that exists in a lot of professions, and various other things are rooted in the past, but they don't think about it that way. A 20 year old train engineer isn't thinking "boy, I'd better listen to my elder boss because that's a vestige of the apprentice system that was set up 500 years ago", instead he's just thinking "I'd better listen to my elder boss so I don't get fired". The craftsmanship is not about doing something to honor the forefathers, it's about doing something a certain way because that's how people expect things to be done, and if they did it any differently, people would complain.

 

Japan actually has a pretty terrible record of preserving the past, at least intentionally. Temples aren't really "preserved", they've just been in continuous use all that time. Most castles I know of are not original; they've been rebuilt, usually several times, and in most cases the last time was when the country finally started coming around on preservation over the past century. This is something a lot of first-time visitors seem to have a hard time getting their head around. If you go to a historic temple, you're not going to a museum; you're going to a working temple. If you see a maiko walking around, they are not dressing up in some kind of costume or trying to preserve an old way of life; it's just their job. If you go to a castle, on the other hand, you are most likely going to a replica built just for modern tourists, generally not a preserved building from the distant past.

 

This is all about the present. It's not part of the past to them and they don't think about it that way. That's how modern things like the shinkansen can coexist with so much of "the past", because none of it is the past to Japanese. It's all now. They only care about now; at least all the people I know.

 

I think this is kind of an interesting thing about countries with very long histories. At a certain point it seems like the past, present and future all start to blend together, and there's no real attempt at distinguishing them from each other. A young country like the US tries to hold really firmly to its past because it's still sort of immediate, which makes it easy to study and learn from and feel a connection to. Most Japanese, if they know much of their own history at all, know that it's long and messy and sometimes embarrassing and consequently there's no real "identity" that they seem to glean from it. On some level they obviously know that Japan has long done certain things a certain way, but they don't necessarily know why and if those things still exist, they associate them with the present moreso than the past.

Edited March 29, 2015 by spacecadet

[katoftw]

Japan actually has a pretty terrible record of preserving the past, at least intentionally. Temples aren't really "preserved", they've just been in continuous use all that time. Most castles I know of are not original; they've been rebuilt, usually several times, and in most cases the last time was when the country finally started coming around on preservation over the past century. This is something a lot of first-time visitors seem to have a hard time getting their head around. If you go to a historic temple, you're not going to a museum; you're going to a working temple. If you see a maiko walking around, they are not dressing up in some kind of costume or trying to preserve an old way of life; it's just their job. If you go to a castle, on the other hand, you are most likely going to a replica built just for modern tourists, generally not a preserved building from the distant past.

I'm surprized people think like that.  At least I didn't.  Temple are just like churches, places of worship and prayer.  Surely people don't look at churches in Europe/USA and go, "Nice they are preserving that church since Christianity has been around for 2000 years"?  They function as places of prayer, and that is why it is being preserved.  Some just have become tourist attractions in the past 30 years.

 

Sure in today's world the is a bit of commercial aspect that goes along with temples/shrines in Japan, but they like any business/individual need funds to support themselves.  If a certain place of prayer becomes a tourist attraction, then great for them as they will have less effort collecting funds.

Edited March 29, 2015 by katoftw

[SantaFe1970]

 

Japan actually has a pretty terrible record of preserving the past, at least intentionally.

 

 

This was one of the arguments of a book of essays I recently read, "Lost Japan" by Alex Kerr (1994). Originally published in Japanese, it won a distinguished prize. That was twenty years ago; I wonder if Japanese attitudes towards historic preservation have changed much since then (as I think they have in the USA, over the pasty fifty years). 

 

Meanwhile, I am glad that there are preserved Japanese steam engines at Umekoji museum.

 

But I am sad that I don't think I will get to visit that museum this trip...

[spacecadet]

I'm surprized people think like that.  At least I didn't.  Temple are just like churches, places of worship and prayer.  Surely people don't look at churches in Europe/USA and go, "Nice they are preserving that church since Christianity has been around for 2000 years"?  They function as places of prayer, and that is why it is being preserved.  Some just have become tourist attractions in the past 30 years.

Well most of my experience with that comes from being in temples and going through the motions (I am not a Buddhist myself, but my wife and her family are so I play along) and being often interrupted by other westerners talking loudly and snapping pictures all over the place. I have had people ask my wife and her family to get out of the way so they could take pictures. I don't think a lot of them realize that these temples are still actively being used. Part of it may be the different way people worship at temples; it can seem like everybody's just walking around being a tourist, including the worshipers. Japanese temples are also often much older than most western churches and being both a different religion and relatively ancient, I think many people just don't really understand that they're more than just tourist attractions. Again they think they're part of the past rather than the present.

 

I've had a couple friends go to Japan over the past 15 years and I did feel the need to mention that they should be respectful at the temples, because they clearly were planning to go in a large group of westerners just to take pictures. They said "oooooooooooh...." when I told them the temples were actually in use.

 

This was one of the arguments of a book of essays I recently read, "Lost Japan" by Alex Kerr (1994). Originally published in Japanese, it won a distinguished prize. That was twenty years ago; I wonder if Japanese attitudes towards historic preservation have changed much since then (as I think they have in the USA, over the pasty fifty years).

I don't think anything's really changed over the past 20 years, which is about as long as I've been really paying attention. But I think there's a change over the past 50 or 100 years. I think the war actually pushed them in that direction. Losing so much history in WWII seemed to give them an appreciation for it, and they have rebuilt a lot of the historical buildings destroyed at that time, while also preserving some of the destruction for educational purposes.

Edited March 30, 2015 by spacecadet

[SantaFe1970]

Well most of my experience with that comes from being in temples and going through the motions (I am not a Buddhist myself, but my wife and her family are so I play along) and being often interrupted by other westerners talking loudly and snapping pictures all over the place. I have had people ask my wife and her family to get out of the way so they could take pictures. I don't think a lot of them realize that these temples are still actively being used. Part of it may be the different way people worship at temples; it can seem like everybody's just walking around being a tourist, including the worshipers. Japanese temples are also often much older than most western churches and being both a different religion and relatively ancient, I think many people just don't really understand that they're more than just tourist attractions. Again they think they're part of the past rather than the present.

 

 

 

I've had similar experiences in Europe, where I've seen secular or insensitive or simply ignorant tourists walking around churches as if they were at Disneyland. When I've been responsible for groups, I always go out of my way to explain what's respectful behavior (low voices, slow movements, etc.) In some cases, I've also had to urge people that its OK to go into a Catholic church, for example, even if you aren't Catholic or Christian, and this is how you do it respectfully...

[SantaFe1970]

I'm recently returned from this first trip to Japan (and have recovered enough from jet lag to post about it).

 

As the original poster, first of all, my thanks to all the people who answered my many questions in this thread (and others on this forum). 

 

There were many, many highlights to the trip, overall -- castles (Himeji, Hikone, Nijo in Kyoto), temples and shrines (too many to specify), wonderful food, wonderful cities (Nara, Kyoto, Tokyo, Kamakura), spectacles (Sanja Matsuri festival in Asakusa, the view from Skytree of Tokyo at night), etc.

 

I found the Japanese people unfailingly courteous and polite, and always very patient when my absolute lack of any spoken Japanese made communication difficult.

 

As I was traveling with a group with no great interest in railways, our train trips were pretty utilitarian, but I did have some personal, rail-related highlights:

 

- The JR West Haruka from KIX Osaka airport to Tennoji, my first train trip in Japan. Immediately struck by the smooth ride; loved the proportions of the cape gauge trainset. Had a glimpse of a Jules Verne-like Nankai 50000 Rapi:t train -- with glowing porthole windows -- at the KIX station.

 

- Shinkansen trips from Kyoto to Himeji and back, Kyoto to Maibara, and Kyoto to Tokyo. For scenery, these exceeded my expectations, particularly along the Tokaido Shinkansen. Because the group was tired, we deliberately chose to go from Kyoto to Tokyo by Kodama, and I enjoyed seeing a snapshot of every station. It was a bright day -- though not clear enough to see Fuji -- and, as a first time traveler to Japan, I found the rice and tea fields, tower blocks, marshaling yards, etc. very interesting. In my mind, I was comparing the stations and scenes with the famous Hiroshige print series "53 Stations of the Tokaido Road." An excellent time, enjoying the train, enjoying the scenery and people around me, enjoying my bento box. A real personal highlight.

 

- The Biwako Line from Hikone to Kyoto. We were in the first car of the train, and I really appreciated the big front window allowing a full view of the train operator and the track ahead. Fascinating to see the impeccably groomed and uniformed operator pointing to the signals with a gloved hand, etc. Impressive professionalism. We met several oncoming freight trains, all EF210s pulling container flat cars. Not for the only time, my traveling companions were amused at my interest in the trains...

 

- Two short hops on the Enoden tram in Kamakura, from Kamakura to Hase and back (to see the Daibatsu and visit the beach). My Japanese colleague on the trip was struck by the Showa atmosphere of the Enoden line; people on the trip were starting to see how the trains could be interesting in themselves, not just tools to get from here to there...

 

- The Tokyo mass transit experience, mostly the Ginza and Asakusa subways and the Yamanote line. Also short hops on the Tsukuba Express, the Sobu, the Tobu Skytree Line, and a long run on the Yokusuka Line from Tokyo to Kamakura and back via Yokohama (dinner in China Town). I didn't get to make a full loop on the Yamanote, but got most of the way around, in pieces, and for some reason really enjoyed it. And I very much enjoyed the hustle, the energy, the shops of the various stations and station areas. 

 

- Kyoto station. Fascinating architecture, fascinating scene all around. I got to explore some on my own at night and then early in the morning -- lots to see and discover.

 

Of course, now I'm thinking about a next possible trip to Japan...

[bikkuri bahn]

The Biwako Line from Hikone to Kyoto. We were in the first car of the train, and I really appreciated the big front window allowing a full view of the train operator and the track ahead. Fascinating to see the impeccably groomed and uniformed operator pointing to the signals with a gloved hand, etc. Impressive professionalism. We met several oncoming freight trains, all EF210s pulling container flat cars.

This. I'm glad you could experience it.

[katoftw]

Sounds like you had good fun.

[SantaFe1970]

This. I'm glad you could experience it.

 

Absolutely -- and here is a short video clip of the driver at work:

 

Edited June 6, 2015 by SantaFe1970

[JR 500系]

Absolutely -- and here is a short video clip of the driver at work:

 

BiwakoLineCab(5-17-15).MOV

 

(Question: How to get the video to show directly in the forum post?)

 

I'm glad you enjoyed your trip too! The Enoden is truly an experience. I've yet to on the Biwako line so I should be marking this down as a must trip to do, along with the Shin-kaisoku from Himeji to Osaka...  

 

One way is to upload your video to youtube, and then paste the link to your uploaded video here. Do remember to click 'un-click' so that we may just click the youtube embedded video to watch directly. ~

[westfalen]

Sounds like a good first trip to Japan, you got to see a pretty good cross section of the rail scene.  Even a non rail oriented tour to japan can't help seeing plenty of trains.

[SantaFe1970]

 

 

One way is to upload your video to youtube, and then paste the link to your uploaded video here. Do remember to click 'un-click' so that we may just click the youtube embedded video to watch directly. ~

 

I tried this, but couldn't get it to work. Never found the "un-click" option and couldn't figure out the html code. But thanks for the suggestion... 

 

Got it to work.

Edited June 6, 2015 by SantaFe1970