3D Modeling; The Future

[kvp]

Not much is in the video that aren't already cleared up. I would add that it's clear for me that you have to use a phone with pristine screen and no protective cover on it, so probably a dedicated new phone with no subscription.

 

The linked resin manufacturer has a description that its visible light curable resin is avalable in colored only as clear would not work with visible light (due to leakage) and the bottles are black.

 

Cleanup seems to be staraight forward as you pour out the rest and wait for the remains to solidify, so you can just take them out of the box in one piece as a thin layer.

 

Personal remarks: i would add a 5V usb power connection to the top mech to avoid the cost of the battery and charger circuits (unless they are using replacable AA cells). This could get the cost of the machine down to around 15-20 usd. The puller plate and the bottom glass has to be replacable, the latter should imho cover the walls too for zero resin leakage. (we are talking about a simple rectangular glass bowl)

[ToniBabelony]

So, this guy is making a video, questioning this printer. Very well, but he claims not to have heard about daylight curing resin... The video is also addressing the issue of clear bottles, which kind of is a shame as the FAQ states the bottle won't be clear anyway (at that point I started to scrutinise the video). However, I will be watching for responses on this video, either in the comment section, the Kickstarter page and/or a response from OLO themselves. I still remain positive about this project, since yes, most issues this video talks about are cleared up already. It's a bit of a shame this guy's decided to question the printer before it's even finished, but understandable (a tiny bit).

 

The battery power is indeed a little bit of an issue, but it does take away the need for a power cord, which I really like. It'd be a bit reluctant myself to open the casing and add a power cord, but rechargeable batteries will also do the job.

[cteno4]

Yes it's easy to arm chair all this stuff, but with a Crowdfund project that has to be done soon as it's only an idea put out and asking backers to support it, many times with little proof of concept there or it's not clear what is real and what is made up marketing blather. He brings up some good points on the issues with liquid polymer printing and flat parts and the membrane issues as well as you are getting this cheap as you will be tying up your very expensive smartphone for long periods of time. Also to warn those that are not all that familiar with crowdfunding and see the very slick videos that there is no assurance that folks will see a product, some projects do fail and can fail miserably! So skepticism is healthy here to weigh the risks involved. But that points pretty moot now that they are wayyyy past their goal and probably better to just wait for the product to hit the streets, but if it's a hit that could be a wait then, and that's part of the Crowdfund gamble payoff if it is!

 

I do think Olo has a lot of proof of concept done compared to a lot of this kind of project, but the info on the proof of concept is buried and partially mixed with its marketing future application stuff and the answers to the very good and valid questions are not easy to find. I think this just makes folks more suspicious if they have the questions, but they may not care about those folks as their market really is aimed at the general consumer who won't be asking those questions much they just want the uber cool Tech!

 

I think it was a mistake to put the polymer in clear bottles, obviously for marketing and photo shoot reasons, just created a misleading issue there. But marketing folks tend not to think that way or if they do they are doing the balance stated above to focus on the most lucrative market to message to and tailor the message to them and not worry about others.

 

Issues like cleaning, especially the print membrane (and replacemeant if needed) is really critical, especially with the general public who may just go at it harshly with a paper towel in Hand! Everyone I have talked with that has direct experience with liquid polymer printing machines does say that cleanup is a lot of work on the machines an has to be done well and that chemicals are messy and not non toxic. Also that the polymer will muck up if not used very regularly (i.e. Better for more constant use than intermittent use). I'm sure Olo is working on solutions to all of these but not much is mentioned about them in the materials (i.e. How many times can you pour excess back into a bottle or how long can it be stored between uses (i.e. Also are there oxidation issues with lots of air exposure in the machine with time) etc.

 

I do wonder why they did not have a 5v input with a battery charger circuit to keep some rechargeable batteries charged up as a backup--that's a 25 cent circuit. Relying solely on batteries seems a bit of a risk and waste. Using their own rechargeable batteries (couple of bucks) they would have much better control of power remaining estimates for battery only operation and then usually run it plugged in and the batteries are jsut a backup if power goes out or its accidentally unplugged during a print.

 

I'm guessing their marketing set this goal to have it battery only and very transportable to make it a totally consumer thing, but who is is going to cart a printer all around like this when it will take an hour or so minimum to print something. Just don't see folks treating this printer like they do their cell phone for transporting all the time. They have gone to a lot of trouble having the bottles and such all pack neatly inside the machine like its something you will be carrying with you all the time. I could see it if it was something that took a couple of minutes (or even 10-15 minutes) to produce something but not a couple of hours where you don't want to move or bump it while printing! We already have tiny photo printers even smaller that you can make your instant Polaroid prints from your cell phone at the coffee shop and even in this selfie culture those went over like a lead balloon. I just don't get the uber portable, battery only concept, but usually a sign for me of the type things that turn out to be some twisted marketing, flash culture thing...

 

So good to be skeptical some if you are going to be an investor! I'm sure Olo has thought thru all these things, but at times perhaps not or their decisions may have a flaw, bias or missing a bit of data that could sink a project so good to keep asking. But also they may be the next uber cool thing that ushers 3D printing to the masses! That's the game of being a venture capitalist!

 

Jeff

Edited March 28, 2016 by cteno4

[Darklighter]

It's a bit of a shame this guy's decided to question the printer before it's even finished, but understandable (a tiny bit).

If you fund the project and the project fails, you may lose your money!

 

 

 

Can Kickstarter refund the money if a project is unable to fulfill?

No, Kickstarter doesn't issue refunds. Transactions are between backers and creators directly. Creators receive all funds (less fees) soon after their campaign ends.

 

Here is an article about the printer that he talks about at the end of the video: http://3dprint.com/100792/pirate3d-buccaneer-sinks/

 

 

The biggest problem might be that you cannot monitor the printing progress. If something goes wrong, e.g., http://www.photocentric3d.com/#!social-forum/wqcvt/postKey-C5YdGJTWzO59ivbJTvl07A , you won't notice until you open the printer (several hours later).

Edited March 29, 2016 by Darklighter

[kvp]

Mainly two things can go wrong: the resin runs out or the model was poorly designed and separates/bends/falls apart. The latter can be mostly checked for with software before printing and large margins can ensure a good result even if the detail level suffers a bit.

 

I would say if we could get some resin, i could hack together a test rig (a cheap open source one) to see if it works.

 

Consumables seems to be:

-resin tank

-puller plate

-batteries

-and the resin

 

Packing them into kits would be a good idea. (and turn a higher profit when you are supposed to throw away them after a few prints before putting away the machine, also means there is no need for cleaning anything)

[cteno4]

Yeah I was wondering if the tank and membrane are going to be the replaceable part with nothing else in them but the membrane and plastic. Mechanics and battery all in the lid unit. Could just do a tank liner that is thin of the non stick plastic, but probably alignment and flatness issues at the print surface. Consumables is where the profit is made, not the machine!

 

Do you think the puller plate will need to be replaced. Seems like if metal it could just detach to be cleaned easily. But probably needs a clean coat of the something that allows just enough adhesion of the polymer but not total sticking to it! I may be the same non stick but the little holes let enough hardened polymer curl around the holes to hold on, but easily get peeled off.

 

If the plastic coating is right hopefully the dried resin peels off very nicely and not much cleaning needed. It almost looked like the housing material might be a little flexible (but of course this could lead to alignment issues) which might make it easier to pop off the dried skin or remnant polymer. Wiping that bottom membrane would not be easy at the bottom of the tank and probably just scratch it up and ruin the anti stick properties for the polymer.

 

Good point hopefully thier cloud prep software (sounded like this is the cloud computing part) will warn of unprintable bits and give some intelligent feedback to help folks make better prints. This is the current real art step in 3D printing and will continue to be. Also the CAD step will still be somewhat of a hurdle for the general user. Even better more user friendly cad software sit to has to get over the hump many folks are not great at grasping heavy 3D in their heads which is necessary even with great and simple software. It really relies a lot on the person having done a lot of fiddling and playing with things by hand in the past (i.e. Legos, building things, tearing them apart, fixing thing) to have a good grasp in their minds eye how stuff goes together in 3D. Of course some of this is in raw talent/brain structure to be a natural, but most anyone can do it with some practice. But I've found those that jump into 3D software w.o natural ability or some physical experience tend to get really frustrated quickly. I taught multimedia at a high school and 3D had the most extreme reactions (both wow and did great stuff super fast or frustrated from the get go and dropped very fast regardless of how much help and encouragement given) of everything I taught. But I guess a lot of consumer things will be simple modifications of pre made models for free or small cost like the 2d cutters all do.

 

Cheers

 

Jeff

[ToniBabelony]

The losing money factor is indeed a big issue. Since I've pledged more than $100, so I'm keeping a very close eye on the updates regarding this Kickstarter on the behalf of OLO. If I'm not satisfied with their responses to others and the clarifications on some of the conspiracies that have come up, I'm simply cancelling my pledge last minute in a heartbeat. I'm very sure they can miss out on me with over $1M of pledges on a $8K goal. Maybe with the time being, something better comes along (UV curing resin looks a bit more attractive than daylight curing anyway). If this becomes a success, the printer will probably remain at $99 and no loss will be had investing in the Kickstarter.

 

Yes, I think this technology will work, but the cost for the materials won't be good. I've been ignoring the fact that I have to import those, which will cost a LOT in sending fees and possible taxing (not very likely though), which will probably still be cheaper than outsourcing the printing, but not by much. Next to that, the license will likely cause trouble for third parties who want to offer an alternative.

[Darklighter]

How is the printer synched to the phone?

 

Via audio (20/18 kHz frequency)

 

:huh:

[kvp]

That's the serial port over audio output method i mentioned as the cheapest solution. It's a frequency modulation that was used by very early modems, essentially one frequency means 0 and the other is 1, by beeping the bits out, it's possible to send serial commands to the stepper motor. (i made a similar hardware/software for mobile robots a few years ago for a university research project, it was easy to make it work)  Nice and simple and only needs a 0.5 usd microcontroller (audio in/out, battery voltage in, stepper dir/pulse = 5 i/o pins). If they add the usb power connector instead of the batteries, it could be made even cheaper. We are down in the 10-15 usd range for the whole printer and i expect chinese copies to be made for this price in no time. (including free software)

[kvp]

What is the average printer speed / layers per minute?

Average power is between 20-32 seconds / from 0.035 to 0.2 mm layer. The speed, which is independent from the XY model dimension, is determined by the brightness of the screen on your smartphone. For example, an iPhone 6 builds 1 cm in approximately 46 minutes (or 1 inch in approximately 1hour and 55 minutes).

This means, the smallest step will be 0.035 mm and the largest layer still adhering to the one above is around 0.2 mm (~6 steps). That's around 2.5 minutes on fastest for 1 mm or 14 minutes on finest for the same 1 mm. Printing 1-2 mm thick building/coach sidewalls is going to be fast enough, but anything more 3d will be rather slow if the finest quality is selected. Otherwise the 0.035 mm/step (~724 dpi) seems comparable to phone pixel sizes (0.2 mm is 127 dpi).

[dabsan]

My first 3D print design arrived last week from Shapeways, ZX45A-1 Research Cabin.

Now time to paint it :)

I was very pleased with the detail of the print.

 

 

[HantuBlauLOL]

:huh:

 

it's very doable.

 

the software (app?) will send audio signal via bluetooth

the printer's receiving mech works like a bluetooth earphones.

 

i even had succesfully controlled my trains via my phone's bluetooth lol. just speed control and constant lighting though.

 

btw how a stepper gets controlled? PWM? if so, that signal could directly control the stepper motor without the need of microcontrollers.

Edited April 10, 2016 by HantuBlauLOL

[kvp]

If it's bluetooth, then you don't need an audio stream as it has a serial data sideband. But imho that would eat the batteries faster than the stepper motor.

 

Imho the control sounds like a small microcontroller one as it also has (according to the qa),battery mesurement capability.

Edited April 10, 2016 by kvp

[cteno4]

Desban,

 

Ohh very nice! Did you design that or is up on shapeways from someone. If you did it are you going to offer it up for sale?!

 

Jeff

[dabsan]

Desban,

 

Ohh very nice! Did you design that or is up on shapeways from someone. If you did it are you going to offer it up for sale?!

 

Jeff

Hi Jeff, thanks for the postive comment :)

Yes I designed it and now I am half way through painting it (hope to post some more pictures this week of it fully painted).

And yes I think I might put it up for sale, just see how happy I am with the completed thing first.

[dabsan]

Hi, here are some photographs of the painted ZX45A-1 Research Cabin, I am very pleased with the look of it.

 

 

 

 

 

[cteno4]

Nice work Debsan! it came out very nice!

 

jeff

[ToniBabelony]

That's one of the best feelings! To see your own designed, printed and finished model. I hope it ignited the spark to create more!

[HantuBlauLOL]

the details are sweet! handpainted or airbrushed?

[inobu]

it's very doable.

 

the software (app?) will send audio signal via bluetooth

the printer's receiving mech works like a bluetooth earphones.

 

i even had succesfully controlled my trains via my phone's bluetooth lol. just speed control and constant lighting though.

 

btw how a stepper gets controlled? PWM? if so, that signal could directly control the stepper motor without the need of microcontrollers.

I have to admit that these guys have a lot of people fooled. There is a lot more to it than meets the eye. 

 

There are some basic machining fundamental that are required. 

 

Stepper motors are two way as it gives feed back to verify its position back to the controller. Each layer has to be synchronized with the stepper motor and "app" in order to create that particular sequence layer. This means that the phone needs to be in sync with the stepper motor as they are two independent systems that requires clocking between the systems or chips.

 

Typically the data is spooled to the processing device and it completes the process internally. I this case there are two independent systems with no common data bus or anything. The synchronization is reliant on the wifi connection. 

 

but 2.1 million who am I to say ....lol

 

takes a lot of guts to do that.......

 

Inobu

[inobu]

Hi, here are some photographs of the painted ZX45A-1 Research Cabin, I am very pleased with the look of it.

 

 

P1000329.jpg

 

P1000328.jpg

 

P1000330.jpg

 

P1000331.jpg

That looks nice. The 3D printing is nothing. It is the creation of the file that garners the accolades.

 

Inobu

Edited April 14, 2016 by inobu

[cteno4]

That looks nice. The 3D printing is nothing. It is the creation of the file that garners the accolades.

 

Inobu

So true! So True!

 

Jeff

[ToniBabelony]

On topic to the OLO printer, I've just backed down from my pledge. They have enough backers to make this happen, plus the wait will be too long for me. Feedback to the general public as well is too little to make this interesting any more. Count in the 'investment' as being too risky and the money better spent elsewhere, I think this is not worth my time any more.

 

IF this project proves to be feasible and successful, we will see cheap copies pop up soon after everywhere (hello China), including cheaper printing materials (hello again China). For now, I think outsourcing printing (Shapeways, DMM.make, Rinkak, etc.) is still the best option for me personally. If something goes wrong with printing there, I won't be responsible for it (unless it's a design issue) and thus won't waste material/time on it.

[kvp]

The research cabin looks great! Is this the same type that was used on the super rail cargo?

 

About the OLO: No need to sync constantly, just count the commands from the end position like most home made cnc-s. Then you only need step up and down and two end position microswitches. (this was used in the c64 floppy too, 1st seek was always full length regardless of position until the mech clicked at the end, then it started counting)

[HantuBlauLOL]

as kvp said, no need to sync constantly.. just once before the process begin. your phone has a relatively stable brightness anyway.