3D Modeling; The Future

[kvp]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/KuMoHa_12

In service 1933–2002

Constructed 1933–1987

Operators:

JGR (1933–1949)

JNR (1949–1987)

JR East (1987–1996)

JR Central (1987–2002)

[railsquid]

I'm planning to have part of this train sit on a Tomytec TM-10 power chassis, as this comes closest to the dimensions of the real thing. If the TM-10 proves to be difficult to find

 

They seem pretty much out of stock. I've been looking for a couple to power the Choshi Tetsudo ex-Eidan cars without much luck; the only one I've found so far was in the junk box at Pochi attached to the bodyshell of a car from some other obscure railway.

[ToniBabelony]

It's actually called "Beneluxspoor" nowadays. ;)

 

I'm actually pretty interested in these Utrecht trams myself, but the thought of having to paint it myself scares me off a bit. And I don't think my wallet will agree anytime soon.

 

Painting is not hard, but it takes a little bit of practice. I'm also looking at decal printing services to add extra details to the printed models. I'm also considering a painting and decaling service, but it won't be cheap.

 

Toni, do you plan to make models based on comissions? There are a few japanese trains that can not be found in N scale and there would be a market for them. For example there is the classic JNR 12 series: kumoha, moha, kuha, saha and saro variants, with and without a wide cab (please correct me if i'm wrong).

 

I could make models as commissions, but the licensing might be an issue as always with these things in Japan, so. Also, I have absolutely no idea about the price I'd be asking for a commercially commissioned model, since I've only been into 3D modeling for a month or two. It also depends on the level of detail. Maybe with a week or two of practice and research, I can give some clarity on this matter.

 

They seem pretty much out of stock. I've been looking for a couple to power the Choshi Tetsudo ex-Eidan cars without much luck; the only one I've found so far was in the junk box at Pochi attached to the bodyshell of a car from some other obscure railway.

 

Yes, I'm lucky to have three in my possession, but it was hard to find them. I think I will focus on the HM-01, as it's relatively cheap, available everywhere, small and leaves room for a potential interior. The plan is to install the HM-01 in the centre bogie. The only downside is that it has no flywheel and anti-slip wheels...

[kvp]

 

I could make models as commissions, but the licensing might be an issue as always with these things in Japan, so. Also, I have absolutely no idea about the price I'd be asking for a commercially commissioned model, since I've only been into 3D modeling for a month or two. It also depends on the level of detail. Maybe with a week or two of practice and research, I can give some clarity on this matter.

I'm pretty sure any license of the Japanese Government Railways have run out since 1930 and no current JR company is interested in the type as afaik non of the original 1930 stock were preserved. I selected this series as it's old, not available as a model in N and the shells were very similar and many of the different variants were modifications of the original base versions. The long life of the sets also make it buyable by many people. The level of detail could be around the same as any Tomytec train collection item, which is low enough to be sturdy (nothing tiny or thin to break off) but good enough to be a nice model.

 

Here is a list of the variants i could find photos of:

-kumoha with one half cab

-kumoha with one full cab (no front door on the cab and driver doors on both sides)

-kumoha with one full and one half cab (this is the Tsurumi line variant)

-kumoha with two half cabs

-moha without cab

-kuha with half cab

-kuha with full cab

-saha without cab

-saro with the middle door replaced by a window

This means 3 end types, 1 middle section, 2 roofs (pantograph or plain) and 2 door types (wooden frame and rubber window frame). The shells can be pre assembled (in the designer software) from the pre drawn parts and printed as once piece or as a shorty like puzzle kit (imho the sprues can be left off) or a combination of these (like whole walls pre assembled). So it would be relatively easy to design a basic set of parts and put together whatever is requested by the buyer.

 

ps: Of course, you might start a poll on how many people are interested in buying this train type or might even write down a few example kits (from the pre war chuo line sets to the last tsurumi line pair) with price estimates. This would allow you evaulate the potential market. The price could be the sum of your work put into the design and production and the printing cost. I assume you have a price range for your art comissions, so this is very similar except printed in 3D, not on paper.

[ToniBabelony]

I'm pretty sure any license of the Japanese Government Railways have run out since 1930 and no current JR company is interested in the type as afaik non of the original 1930 stock were preserved. I selected this series as it's old, not available as a model in N and the shells were very similar and many of the different variants were modifications of the original base versions. The long life of the sets also make it buyable by many people. The level of detail could be around the same as any Tomytec train collection item, which is low enough to be sturdy (nothing tiny or thin to break off) but good enough to be a nice model.

 

Well, if there is a someone with the license on this train and finds out there is a model being sold, there can be trouble, so it's best to be sure with these things. A single commissioned 3D model for personal use would probably be no problem in this regard, but a public commercial release would.

 

ps: Of course, you might start a poll on how many people are interested in buying this train type or might even write down a few example kits (from the pre war chuo line sets to the last tsurumi line pair) with price estimates. This would allow you evaulate the potential market. The price could be the sum of your work put into the design and production and the printing cost. I assume you have a price range for your art comissions, so this is very similar except printed in 3D, not on paper.

 

Well, the price for a commission would be calculated by the effort put in 1: modelling (detail), 2: compatibility with 3rd party products (possible purchase of these for exact measurements) and 3: source material and the quality of the source material.

 

The latter can be complicated if there are no detailed blueprints/plans and photographs available and/or I'm set out to retrieve/purchase/etc. these when not available on the commissioner's behalf. Luckily I have contacts/friends (maybe even the local library with luck) with leagues of Tetsudo Fan magazines that contain 1/80 plans of most Japanese rolling stock, but I won't be able to access these immediately. Without blueprints/plans it is too possible to make a model (that's how I did my Kanto Railway DMU), but will require photographs from certain angles, but will result in a more painstaking effort in measurements. All of these factors are influencing the price to create a 3D model.

 

The printing costs are all for the commissioner, since I have no printer available, so that is dependent on the company the commissioner/buyer chooses to print from.

[HantuBlauLOL]

Usually RM models magazine have some drawings

 

I got the volume 95. it has moha 43, moha 52, moha 50, moha 500, C10, C53, and some old coaches drawings. Not blueprints though, but still very useful for model making

Edited May 16, 2015 by HantuBlauLOL

[ToniBabelony]

Damnit.

 

 

The hakotetsu HM-01 is too high for this project... This is indeed a bummer, as it now forces me to use another power unit, which is lower... I've been looking at some other options, like the TM-10, TM-11R and even the potential ruining of a good power unit. In the end, I've come to the conclusion that it'd be best to create a system that uses parts of a Tomytec power unit.

 

Basically, all TM units have similar parts, like the motor unit (normal and narrow type) and bogies (normal and compact type). Weights are different with almost every unit, but that can be solved with lead tape. This solution of adding standard Tomytec parts will be a bit more time consuming in the design phase, but will guarantee more flexibility for the user (no need to buy one specific and hard to find power unit). The only thing is to get the right motor and bogie types.

[kvp]

Imho using tm-tr1 motors would still be easier and imho those are the only ones with small enough wheels and low enough height. Not much bashing is requiered either, just a new, pin connected upper frame above the unpowered bogie with two connection points for the two sections. The powered bogies can go right into the shells after disconnecting the stretchable parts. I don't know if anything else would fit.

[ToniBabelony]

Imho using tm-tr1 motors would still be easier and imho those are the only ones with small enough wheels and low enough height. Not much bashing is requiered either, just a new, pin connected upper frame above the unpowered bogie with two connection points for the two sections. The powered bogies can go right into the shells after disconnecting the stretchable parts. I don't know if anything else would fit.

 

The TM-TR01 motor units have too short axle distances for this model. They are about 9mm, whereas this model needs to have 12mm distance. I think this solution (still in progress) should solve the problem:

 

 

For this solution, I need to provide two replacement drive shafts, so there can be maximum compatibility with Tomytec resource power units. I'm not sure yet how to connect the other part yet, but that isn't an issue at this stage. It's probably over a simple pin connection over the centre bogie. The chassis for the motor unit looks very crude and thick, but that is because it needs stability, as acrylic isn't the most sturdy of materials.

 

All will connect through a simple and light 'slide-and-click' system so no glueing is required.

[HantuBlauLOL]

I think you can open the upper part of HM01 and use a tape to secure the motor on its place.

[ToniBabelony]

I think you can open the upper part of HM01 and use a tape to secure the motor on its place.

 

Why do that when I can create things on par with factory standards? ;) I think even if I leave out the upper part, the HM-01 will still be too tall.

[HantuBlauLOL]

When you were too lazy to make something tiny that costs 10 bucks? :P

[ToniBabelony]

When you were too lazy to make something tiny that costs 10 bucks? :P

 

I intend to sell this model to other people and want to design it with maximum user friendliness, so all needs to be provided. The extra costs for these parts won't be high, as I will have these printed in one go (possibly multiple trains) and not separately. Printing large volumes reduces costs.

 

A little update on this morning's progress before I start to work on other stuff:

 

 

[cteno4]

Toni,

 

Looks very nice! Excellent work!

 

Jeff

[Densha]

What kind of material will these be made of? If even the connections between both cars are included in the design the material shouldn't be porous and/or break or bend under the pressure of the model constantly moving and making curves when it's running.

[Densha]

Also, I read on Beneluxspoor that you are thinking of using Tomix TN couplers. That made me think about coupling two trams, just as they do in prototype. With just a few changes in the floor you could make it support running bogies instead of a power unit to create a non-powered 'trailer'.

[ToniBabelony]

Thanks Jeff!

 

What kind of material will these be made of? If even the connections between both cars are included in the design the material shouldn't be porous and/or break or bend under the pressure of the model constantly moving and making curves when it's running.

 

The material will be acrylic, which can break when under stress, but isn't porous. I've realised this, just after I posted the pictures, so I've beefed up the connection a bit more:

 

 

 

There are of course some margins for the two parts to move around a bit, as they also need to be able to negate curves and inclines without problems.

[HantuBlauLOL]

I think I forgot that you were going to sell this..

 

Here is a reference for articulated coupling mechanism, looks similar with TN coupler mech.

 

http://www.skala-n.dk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=261&Itemid=370

 

I don't know what language it is, but I think the pics already gave enough explanation.

Edited May 21, 2015 by HantuBlauLOL

[kvp]

I think in this case there is no need to close couple, since the original tram has a visible articulation, which can be reproduced the same way Tomix or Bandai would do it. Toni did exactly that, but imho the ring mounting around the roof could use a bit of extra thickness. The only thing i don't see is the unpowered trailer truck, which can be the same type (with the gears removed) as the motor or it could be 3D printed and using trailer parts. Using an unpowered motor truck has the benefit of all wheel pickup (with some wires or brass strips) and the nice brass journal bearings Tomix and Tomytec motors have. Trailer parts are much cheaper though.

[Densha]

So if the coupling mechanism breaks the whole model is ruined? I wonder if there is a way to have them as separate parts...

 

kvp,

As for the trailer, Tomytec trailer parts do not include mounting for bogies so I think Toni has to make them anyway.

[kvp]

 

As for the trailer, Tomytec trailer parts do not include mounting for bogies so I think Toni has to make them anyway.

Not if another motor bogie is used (unpowered, without the top gear), since then it just have to be put into its slot and the pickups connected. Using trailer wheels means the bogie has to be 3D printed and then it won't even have pickups. Using another motor bogie as a trailer is easier and better, but slightly more expensive.

[ToniBabelony]

I don't see the point in using a second powered unit for resources when I can design the unpowered bogie to be printed...

 

For this I have thought up a solution that should solve a lot of designing issues in the future. It's a principle used by Bandai for its B-Train shorties, but I want to have it compatible with Tomytec products instead. The unpowered bogie will only feature a simple design to support the wheels and be able to connect to the chassis. The visible part will then be separate and slide-on, like with the powered bogies. This way, it's possible to reuse the bogie design for other, future, models. This way it can also be printed in a different material, other than acrylic, that is less prone to break or be damaged by constant friction.

 

Thanks to a tip in the Beneluxspoor forum (Dutch), I'm planning to have only the visible parts printed in high detailed acrylic and the moving parts in 'strong flexible plastic' (Nylon). At both Shapeways and DMM you can choose the colour for nylon, which will be black to match the Tomytec power units and give it a professional look.

 

Anyway, because of this, I'll have to redesign the connection between the two carriages, as I don't want any acrylic part to be in constant frictional touch with the nylon parts (which will have a slightly coarse surface).

 

Designing ain't easy, but it's fun!

[kvp]

So both connecting parts will be nylon? That seems like a good idea. Can you get the whole model printed in colored ABS? (some 3D printers can use it, but don't know the possible resolution) It would be both strong and flexible.

 

For the redesign, you could mount the top connecting point onto the baseplate of the trailer and move the connection point a bit closer to the middle, which would give better ride characteristics on uneven track.

 

Using a 2nd power unit or a stand alone off the shelf power bogie would be good for power pickup, so the tram would be able to activate occupancy sensors with its first bogie regardless of running direction and pick up power with all three. If you design a way to add wheel tip power pickup to your trailer bogie, that would work as well.

 

ps: You could (for an extra fee) supply all the mechanical parts needed, so the buyer could buy it as a full kit.

[ToniBabelony]

All wheel power pickup would be a good idea, but when the train also has trailer cars (either pushing or dragging), the argument for the sensors becomes moot, unless I make power couplers (which is an entirely different story). With electricity pickup on the unpowered bogie, I'd also have to provide metal parts, which I'd have to design as well. This kit needs to be as user friendly as possible.

 

At the moment I'm at this stage:

 

 

All basic parts are finished and it's practically ready to be printed. The transmission axles have turned out VERY short and I wonder if this will work on the model.

 

Because the train's skirts obscure the upper half of the wheels, I have adjusted the bogies (cut away parts that hit the shell) and body to be able to make a minimum turn of 10˚ per bogie in each direction. I don't know what the turning circle will be with these adjustments, but it probably won't be much.

 

I'll let this design simmer in my head over the weekend and look back at it next week. Printing it will have to wait as well, as I'm practically broke... xD

 

P.s. I won't be printing in coloured ABS, as the shell needs to be printed in high-resolution acrylic, which is only available as a clear material. ABS' resolution is much too coarse for detailed model printing and it can't provide a (relatively) smooth surface.

Edited May 22, 2015 by Toni Babelony

[kvp]

 

All wheel power pickup would be a good idea, but when the train also has trailer cars (either pushing or dragging), the argument for the sensors becomes moot, unless I make power couplers (which is an entirely different story). With electricity pickup on the unpowered bogie, I'd also have to provide metal parts, which I'd have to design as well. This kit needs to be as user friendly as possible.

You only need working pickups on a trailer when it is pushed by the motor car and used as a control trailer. For the headlights to work, they are needed anyway. The lack of trailer pickups is one of the biggest problems with Tomytec kits as most of the emus are motor-control trailer sets. It's not a surprise that Tomix trailer bogies have the all wheel pickup even on middle cars. If you skip working head and tail lights, then there is no real need for the trailer pickups. By the way, i think you might have to provide a way to route the power from the two powered bogies to the motor, so adding a 3rd seemed like any easy task, unless there is a way to use the pickup strips from the original motor frame.

 

Other than that, your desin looks fairly professional and i'm looking forward to it. The minimum turn radius will be an important value. (considering the R140 and R150 turnouts available on the market)

 

ps: You might want to design an unmotorised base frame for the motorised half, so the model could be assembled as a rolling, but unpowered set. (so it could be used as a trailer coupled to a motorised one)