Defective New Merchandise

[velotrain]

I'm wondering what experiences folks have had when they get defective new items, but live a long way from Japan?  The postage involved makes return impractical.

 

I've had two experiences, and think I'm about to have a third.  The first was early on, and I can't recall precisely what it is, and am too tired to search through my old emails.  It involved Plaza Japan, and they wanted me to return the item (a non-running tram I think) at their cost, and they'd ship another one.  This small, light item was something like $50 at the P.O., and I was shocked.

 

A couple of weeks ago I got a couple of Modemo trams, the Toden Arakawa retro blue and cream design.  I didn't care for the looks of it when I first saw it, but slowly came around to liking it. 

 

 

About a week after I received them I realized that the headlights on one were flaky.  I’m pretty sure it’s the chip, or perhaps more precisely incorrect miniature soldering that I'm not about to try to trace and/or mess with.

 

If it is running with the pantograph at the rear, the headlight is on but the rear (red) lights are out.
If it is running with the pantograph at the front, the headlight does not work, but the rear (red) lights are on.

 

This was from HS, and when I contacted them they said that a return didn't really work.  Instead, they offered me full purchase price points, which I thought was very generous.  I don't know if this is standard policy or not, but I'd placed multiple orders recently and also provided a lot of feedback on their site design - which I have issues with, but am gradually getting accustomed to.  They said that Modemo was known for "lax QA", but they couldn't take the time to test every Modemo product they ship out.

 

A few days ago I received the first of several Tomix 5563 TCS units I've ordered.  These were for different applications, and from what I've experienced so far I'm very glad I'm getting multiple units, so I won't need to mess with them after setting them up for the desired mode/program/function.

 

I've so far successfully tested two of the nine modes, but it hasn't been easy.  The reason I think it's defective is that in order to get these modes to work, I've needed to reverse the sensors that they show in their diagrams.  1 for 2 in mode 6, and 1 for 2 and 3 for 4 in mode 8.  Despite many frustrations (even outside the likely defective unit), I'm really excited about the possibilities of TCS.  I know it stands for something else, but can't help thinking of it as Train Control System  ;-)

 

OK - those are my stories, what's your experience?

 

[katoftw]

Wow good service from HS.  They basicly gave you a full refund sight unseen.

 

I've had a couple turn up in pieces etc and had to rebuild them.  But nothing faulty as such.

 

Good luck with your Train Controller System.  With some more playing around, I'm sure you'll figure it out.

[velotrain]

Good luck with your Train Controller System.  With some more playing around, I'm sure you'll figure it out.

 

Thanks - I received another one yesterday, which I'll test / compare in the morning (which isn't that far away, but I'm too old for an all-nighter).

 

If the new one works correctly, the other Modes will be a lot easier and faster.

[railsquid]

I'm in the opposite situation, living in Japan but occasionally acquiring items from abroad. So far I've been fairly lucky; only one item (a Fleischmann locomotive which ran fine in the shop) has failed completely; I ended up sourcing a new motor for it as it was less hassle and about the same expense as trying to return it to the shop I bought it in in Germany.

 

In general I suppose I'm more accepting that there is a certain element of risk involved in purchasing from abroad, so am more tolerant of minor issues than I would be with something bought locally that I can easily exchange. I'm also thinking a bit in the longer term - even if something works fine, at some point it might fail and I'd like to be in a position to repair it myself. But that's my personal preference. Otherwise I'd be sure only to order from retailers with a known "friendly" return policy used to dealing with overseas orders.

[velotrain]

In general I suppose I'm more accepting that there is a certain element of risk involved in purchasing from abroad, so am more tolerant of minor issues than I would be with something bought locally that I can easily exchange.

 

I was really surprised (shocked?) by the HS offer, as it still runs after all, so I would have been happy with some compensation on my next order if they didn't want to do an exchange. 

I'm fairly sure I wouldn't even have minded so much if I hadn't seen it working correctly on the other one.  These are really nice lights too - very close to scale, as they're maybe 1 mm around, and perhaps even less.

I have considered coupling them together (vs. proto practice), so the defect could be hidden in the middle.

 

The TCS unit issue is a much bigger problem to me, as its already caused hours of frustration.

Here I was questioning what I was doing wrong, and now it looks like it wasn't me at all.

I wish the unit would generate error codes - as it is, either the trains don't run at all or not as they're supposed to, and you have no idea why (not).

[E6系]

Hello,

 

It is very "unJapanese" for a retailer to criticise a manufacturer to a customer.  Is that correct English? I mean to say, I am surprised that HS would claim Modemo have a lower standard QA program.  Certainly, I do not believe that to be the case.  All manufacturers strive for the highest quality product.  Afterall, many overlap product with Tomix, Micro Ace and Kato all making 200系 shinkansen and 10000系 subway car, for example.

 

I have over 140 trains.  A handful have had faulty light board.  Usually I repair, but a couple of times I have exchanged product or, in the case of Tomix, picked up a new light board to install.

 

I am not surprised that the retailer credit you full points.  Just because you are an international customer does not mean you should get inferior service.  But I think HS has wholesaler status, like BigMan.  Perhaps Plaza Japan could not reach an agreement with the wholesaler about return of product, so I would not be so hasty to blame Plaza.

[cteno4]

Charles,

 

Sorry to hear you are having some troubles.

 

Like squid, I always assume that I'm going to have some risk buying from overseas with issues of the cost of returning and such. That being said with a few hundred sets, locos and trams in the collection, I've had none with and issue that warranted a return except one tram and that was a unfortunately just a complete design failure all around -- it was a real exception... Few little things have shown up with a loose truck or poor lubing, but a tad of fiddling and I've always gotten them working well. I'd say my overall experience has been excellent with a large number of different kinds of n scale trains over the last 15 years. I'd say it's been much better overall than my experience in the past with na n scale and suppliers.

 

Return shipping can be expensive from the U.S. to japan and thus really cost the retailer as they may not get that reimbursed by the manufacturer. This is also one of the reasons that most shops don't sell overseas (as well as language). The exporters that do seem to try their best to do what they can. Plaza Japan's return policy has always been pretty much you pay return shipping from what I have seen. Might also be that since thru ebay they also take a good chunk of his profit.

 

On the TCS I know it can be frustrating with things like that to know if it's a defective unit or you are just doing it wrong. Until you can get it working on one unit and not another one the same way it's hard to know if it's defective or not. Things like control circuits and sensors are the worst and most frustrating on this. I've banged my head on some auto reverser circuits only to find that the instructions were written unclearly (and it was a U.S. company). Perhaps put out your setup to the group and see if anyone has some suggestions? I know richK has had experience with them.

 

Best of luck with it.

 

Jeff

 

Ps if you do ship from the U.S. to japan see if you can fit it in one of the small fixed global priority boxes, usually the cheapest.

[1954G]

In general I suppose I'm more accepting that there is a certain element of risk involved in purchasing from abroad, so am more tolerant of minor issues than I would be with something bought locally that I can easily exchange. I'm also thinking a bit in the longer term - even if something works fine, at some point it might fail and I'd like to be in a position to repair it myself. 

 

I agree with this.  Because of language barriers and the cost of overseas shipping, it often isn't practical to ask for manufacturer assistance. 

When I encounter problems with an item purchased from Japan, I

 

1. Try my best to fix it, ordering parts when necessary.  Tip: if you're searching for rare parts, try Yahoo JP auctions.  Individual cars, motors, etc. from out-of-production trains are sometimes available.  You'll need to use a proxy service if you live outside Japan. 
2. Failing that, sell the item on eBay as-is, disclosing what is wrong with it. 

[velotrain]

"Perhaps Plaza Japan could not reach an agreement with the wholesaler about return of product, so I would not be so hasty to blame Plaza."

 

E6 - I don't know why you think I'm blaming PJ.  They covered the return shipping, but I was shocked that it was so much for a tiny and light box.

If Japan can offer SAL, why can't the USPS have something similar?

 

==>>  Are there other options besides USPS outbound to Japan?  

I know DHL is no longer available within the U.S., but would using them for Int'l. from a UPS Store be cheaper?

 

Jeff - I've been in communication with Rich as I work through this.  I received a second 5563 yesterday, and will be testing-comparing with it today.

I had a different sort of failure with the TCS this morning, which helps confirm that it's defective - certainly in my mind.

[utrainia]

USPS First Class is their verso n of SAL. Slow and untracked, but cheap. Back when I used to buy lots of US N gauge items from eBay I would always ship then First Class. Was usually $10-12 for a single loco. So there are cost effective shopping options, you just need to know your way around USPS.

[brill27mcb]

I had an issue with a Hobby Search order years ago. As I recall, I bought a Tomix Mini-Points track package, and what arrived was a Mini-Crossing set instead. It had the track pieces of the crossing set, mounted in the hard clear plastic cover for the Mini-Crossing set, but the cardboard back piece was for the Mini-Points set and had the name and stock number for the Mini-Points set -- clearly a factory error.

 

I notified HS and then emailed them clear photos of the front and back (which showed the strips of sealing tape still in place). They apologized (even though it was not their fault at all) and told me a correct set was already on its way and I should just keep the one I had. They said they would send the photos on to Tomix to help them in determining how such a mistake happened. I was impressed!

 

Rich K.

[velotrain]

On the TCS I know it can be frustrating with things like that to know if it's a defective unit or you are just doing it wrong. Until you can get it working on one unit and not another one the same way it's hard to know if it's defective or not. Things like control circuits and sensors are the worst and most frustrating on this. I've banged my head on some auto reverser circuits only to find that the instructions were written unclearly (and it was a U.S. company). Perhaps put out your setup to the group and see if anyone has some suggestions? I know richK has had experience with them.

 

Jeff -

 

I now have proof that the first TCS unit is defective.  I opened the one I received yesterday, and swapped all the wires just as they had been connected.  If you haven't worked with these, the sensor wires are a real pain to insert and much more so to remove, and you're constantly worried that you're going to destroy them or the TCS unit.  AFAIC, this is a major lapse from Tomix's usual high quality.

 

The trams would stop dead at the first sensor, and no amount of momentum would change this.  I then switched the sensors to the positions the manual indicates they should be in, and everything worked perfectly.  Case closed.

 

I only wish my intro to TCS had not been made so frustrating by a defective 5563, but I won't hold that against TCS ;-)

I do think that if Japanese companies are going to have their products produced in China, they need to make sure Japanese level QA is performed.

[EF65 1100]

I personally have had good experience with HS. One of the Tomix 485 Kagayaki sets had the floor bent downwards. I didn't catch it at first but the metal weights were also bent between the floor and the bottom. I explained it to HS and they offered a replacement set and even paid returned shipping. That was beyond what I expected.

[JR 500系]

Good discussion.

 

I've been lucky so far, getting almost all new products from retailers in perfect conditions.  

 

I do have an experience with a new product, the Tomix 92804 E3-1000 Tsubasa. The head lights/ tail lights of car 11 (first car) were not lighting up at all, seems to be a problem with the chip board.. It was bought from Tam Tam, through MTP personal shopping service as it was not available anywhere else at that time. Kudos to MTP for taking the effort to send back the item to Tam Tam / Tomix for repairs and it returns brand new!

 

Been lucky too with my new China source for the MA models. So far, everything is fine except for some problems with the NoDoKa carpet train motor. Being coming from China, I possibly couldn't expect to send it back for repairs so I guess I need to figure something out for this one...

[velotrain]

Mea culpa

 

I've done a lot more testing with my initial 5563 and realized that it is not defective.

 

I apparently got somewhat confused during my early testing, and I'm a lot more knowledgeable about these units now.

 

I thought I had been reasonably methodical in the initial testing, but it seems that wasn't the case.

There were many things I didn't understand, and I unfairly blamed TCS for them.

[cteno4]

No worries, it's good to hear that someone else gets tangled with these, I know I have. Love/hate that DOH! moment when it clears up!

 

Nice to know the TCS units are all working for you now and your knowledge is growing with this! Fun to see the progress and sounds like this may be a great application for a number of your projects.

 

Jeff

[velotrain]

. . . sounds like this may be a great application for a number of your projects.

 

 

Au contraire - this is suggesting entirely new projects ;-)   Too bad they don't make one for 16.5 mm rail spacing . . .

 

Good thing I have 3 of them now.  However, they can be so fussy (especially the sensor plugs), that I'm planning on using two complete systems, including N-600 power units, permanently installed under my terminal module, and will simply power up one or the other depending on what I want to do.  This is mostly due to not wanting to have to make any wiring changes in an exhibition environment.  This is in addition to a non-TCS power unit for manual operation.  Once I have one working as I want it to, I don't want to change anything on it - even turning the mode selector dial to 9 for "regular running". 

[Guest ___]

Hello,

 

It is very "unJapanese" for a retailer to criticise a manufacturer to a customer.  Is that correct English? I mean to say, I am surprised that HS would claim Modemo have a lower standard QA program.  Certainly, I do not believe that to be the case.  All manufacturers strive for the highest quality product.  Afterall, many overlap product with Tomix, Micro Ace and Kato all making 200系 shinkansen and 10000系 subway car, for example.

 

Interesting note to point out, that I've found over the past couple of decades that Japanese, and Japanese companies will not complain or place fault with a person or company to another Japanese person, but won't hesitate to complain, or place blame on another person or company to a westerner.  I am never less amazed to hear what most of my Japanese friends think when there are no other Japanese around; it almost always shatters my notion of Japanese politeness and protocols.

 

My experiences with HS has been much better than Plaza Japan over the years, but I digress... There are plenty of threads on my opinions on the matter.

[velotrain]

It might suggest that the "politeness and protocols" are actually a product of another "P" - political correctness ;-)

 

On the opposite side of that, sometimes ethnic/social groups may talk one way among themselves, but change radically when an outsider is present.

[velotrain]

On the opposite side of that, sometimes ethnic/social groups may talk one way among themselves, but change radically when an outsider is present.

 

I realized I didn't phrase that well, so it seems to echo what Shashinka said.

 

I meant that a group may be more casual / familiar /  "earthy" when only they are present - in other words, the opposite of polite, but it is accepted within the group.

[kvp]

 

Too bad they don't make one for 16.5 mm rail spacing 

The Tomix TCS is perfectly usable with other scales as long as the voltage and power is sufficient for the motors/turnouts. The track inputs on the sensor plugs can be connected to the track sensors of several other manufacturers. For example it's directly connectable to Berliner TT Bahn track sensors and connectable with trickier wiring to Maerklin Z scale track sensors. You can also use any track sensor with a relay output as long as you provide the right 12V DC power for the relay to connect through the track inputs of the sensor plug. (the sensor electronics is in the plug itself, so you must use it) For Z scale, you might have to drop the 12V to 9-10V with double diodes connected serially, but for TT you can use it as it is and for H0 scale, you should only use it with lower current and lower speed engines. For turnouts, you have to add diodes serially before the two coils of the classic european turnouts (on towards, one away from the inputs) and connect the other wire directly to the common. This way a Tomix TCS unit can switch low current turnouts from european manufacturers. Of you can use a bistable relay with the diode trick above to amplify the TCS signal and get a stable high current output for a Tortoise or other larger switch machine. So in short, you can use the Tomix TCS system with other scales and track systems.

 

 

Good thing I have 3 of them now. However, they can be so fussy (especially the sensor plugs), that I'm planning on using two complete systems, including N-600 power units, permanently installed under my terminal module, and will simply power up one or the other depending on what I want to do. 

Connecting the outputs of two units might destroy one or both of them, depending on setup. For example two powered TCS inputs connected together will half the pull up resistance which doubles the current. This might burn down the optocouplers in the sensors. On the other hand, powering down one of them means the unpowered unit will receive power through the overvoltage protection diodes on it's inputs, which are designed for electrostatic discharges, not constant power. This could either damage the whole unit or just the diode and transistor of the connected input, whichever burns out first.

 

My suggestion would be to always disconnect one unit before connecting up the other. If you don't like to fiddle with the sensor plugs, then you can cut the wires and install easier to handle plugs. I've switched all my sensor plugs to the same large plugs that the turnout and power feeds use, just the 3 pin version. (also used with rc servos) This way they can be connected in reverse, which is easier than turning the whole sensor around to change detection direction.

[velotrain]

Connecting the outputs of two units might destroy one or both of them, depending on setup. For example two powered TCS inputs connected together will half the pull up resistance which doubles the current. 

 

If you don't like to fiddle with the sensor plugs, then you can cut the wires and install easier to handle plugs. I've switched all my sensor plugs to the same large plugs that the turnout and power feeds use, just the 3 pin version.

 

I don't know how to interpret this KVP.  You mention "two powered TCS inputs connected together", but I will only have the power unit connected to one of them on at a time.  They might share a short section of running track, but my current thought is that the turnouts and sensors will be totally separated - so that neither sensors or turnouts will be on the same route used by the other - is this still a problem?  The track power feed will be in different locations, although as mentioned, some of the track will be shared.  Basically, one TCS unit will control a route that is exclusively on the terminal module, for "standalone" operation, while the other is used when additional modules are connected.

 

I admire what you've done with the sensor plugs and wonder why Tomix couldn't have done that.  However, I'm concerned at working with the tiny wires involved.  Besides the fussiness, I just don't wish to have to change ANY of the plugs at an exhibition.

[cteno4]

Charles,

 

I do see the wisdom in what kvp is saying. Seems very simple to just make sort of a break out board that could then be plugged into easily. Just have a little key to the order the various plugs go into the breakout board. Could als just have all the wires from the controller go into one long pc board connector strip and also all the sensor and power lines go into another strip connector. Then just make cables that connects these two strips. Each one could be wired for a different configuration so you just swap out the jumper cable for the program you are using.

 

I think kvp is worried that there could be configuration doing the dual parallel working to each controller that even with only one controller powere on there could be a odd circuit formed from the wiring thru the dead controller.

 

I thin just with the issue with the flaky connection to the sensor wires and into the back of the controllers going to a more robust connector system even while fiddling with a new setup will make life easier and better in the log run. Will be a lot faster with a little jumper breadboard you could solder up in 15 min to play with then make a permanent one once you have it worked out. Then jsut plug in the board and go!

 

Jeff

[kvp]

 

I think kvp is worried that there could be configuration doing the dual parallel working to each controller that even with only one controller powere on there could be a odd circuit formed from the wiring thru the dead controller.

Yes. As long as there are no shared sensors, no shared turnouts and the track feeds are unplugged on the inactive unit, it should be ok.

 

I admire what you've done with the sensor plugs and wonder why Tomix couldn't have done that.  

 

I think it has something to do with the wires which are interchangable, so you can use them to connect a TCS sensor to a control unit or to daisy chain two sensors. The sensor plugs are small and it would be hard to fit two larger sockets into them. I bought a few normal plugs with matching crimp on metal contacts, soldered them onto the cut ends of the cables with all femate plugs. The trick is that this way you can connect both cable halfs to pins solderd onto raster boards or use a 3 pin row of double length pins with the plastic spacer in the middle to connect them and get back the original daisy chain cable. It also allows a cross cable arrangement with the two sides (and as a result the detection directions) swapped.

[velotrain]

Yes. As long as there are no shared sensors, no shared turnouts and the track feeds are unplugged on the inactive unit, it should be ok.

 

Would it not be enough to have the other power unit turned off, or even unplugged?

 

I understand what you and Jeff are saying, but after initially planning to do something similar, I'm now feeling that I prefer not to have to mess with the set-up at all.