Gradient / Incline Questions

[ChrisV]

Hi Guys

 

Need some feedback regarding some layout design ideas.

 

I'm running Kato Unitrack viaduct 'Shinkansen' style lines and I want to to have a dual level layout. That is running an elevated line that rises from the baseboard using Kato Incline piers ( up and over etc ). From what I can see there are few layouts out there that use this successfully.

 

Now my question.

 

Is there a minimum grade that should be installed as not to be too steep for trains? I run mostly Shinkansens - not 16 cars but some of the plans I have seen in the Tomix & Kato catalogues etc show some pretty steep rises.I can imagine the power car is going to labour a bit as she push/pulls that load up. I would hate to accelerate the burn out factor in these cars due to some poor planning.

 

My calculations ( based on visual and logic - no maths here  ) sees a distance of 1.8m ( just under 6ft ) to be ample for one incliine.

 

Can anyone give me some feedback on anything relating to this??

 

Thanks as always.

 

Here is the plan from the Tomix catalogue.

Copy_of_Picture_012.bmp

[Martijn Meerts]

I believe on average the manufacturer specify a max incline of 4%. I don't think a steep incline will damage the loco's as such, what tends to happen is that the wheels just start slipping, you're not gonna strip any gears in the short term.

 

The 4% is on a straight piece of track btw, in curves the percentage should be smaller. Many permanent layouts that have good space seem to go for a maximum of 2% whenever possible.

[CaptOblivious]

Worth noting, too, is that the standard spacing for the Tomix inclines yields something very close to a 4% incline, and a little steeper in the curves (because the risers are closer together). My Kato E4 can sometimes have problems making it up that incline (only one powered truck…grr…)

[Bernard]

First off I like the layout plan you're working with, plenty of room for a yard and there is a good amount of switching between lines. 

 

On my layout everything is at a 2% grade and there are no problems with any of the trains making it up that grade. I have always been warned about 4% being too steep. The one problem with the 2% is that you are going to need a lot more room to plan out an incline and making sure there is enough clearance if the grade crosses over another track.

[Martijn Meerts]

Most trains, even 16 part shinkansen with only 1 motor car should be able to get up a 4% incline. Many European brands consider 5% to be the maximum, but I've seen Marklin trains (granted, in H0) scale 10% inclines without problems.

 

The bad thing about steep inclines is that they actually look much steeper than they actually are, especially in curves ;)

[alpineaustralia]

Apart from wheels slipping, the tyres also come off and engines stall. I have trouble with the standard Kato incline set over a distance of about 4 -5 feet.

[disturbman]

I wonder how it feels IRL but in picture I real have the feeling the "all around the layout" viaduc is creating some kind of barrier between the observer and the normal level of the layout.

 

I feel that this layout will be more interesting, and less cramped, if (a part of) the lower level (maybe the yard) was in outside and not inside the viaduc.

[scott]

FWIW, I had to use 4% inclines everywhere on our layout just to fit in enough track to make it interesting. So far, nothing that wasn't already a maintenance probably has had any difficulty climbing the grades. But I tend to run 3- to 7- or so car trains and 2- to 4- car EMUs, not 16-car shinkansens or 50-car freights.

[CaptOblivious]

The E4 I had problems with was only an 8-car consist. The problem seems to stem from the fact that Kato bent over backwards to ensure the motorized car had a fully detailed interior—it looks amazing, and you'd never know it was the motorized car to look at it. But this also means not nearly enough weight, and only one motorized truck, i.e. very little traction. I might add a little weight to it.

 

My Kato and Tomix locomotives, however, have absolutely no problem pulling 20+ freight cars up those inclines. Nor does my Kato 11-car E231-500 (which has two powered trucks, as usual)

[ChrisV]

I wonder how it feels IRL but in picture I real have the feeling the "all around the layout" viaduc is creating some kind of barrier between the observer and the normal level of the layout.

 

I feel that this layout will be more interesting, and less cramped, if (a part of) the lower level (maybe the yard) was in outside and not inside the viaduc.

 

I can see your point there. My layout will slightly longer than this but following the same feel. Having the yard inside the viaduct sits ok wil me as it has that ' crowded Japanese ' feel once you throw in a few buildings and trees etc.

 

The E4 I had problems with was only an 8-car consist. The problem seems to stem from the fact that Kato bent over backwards to ensure the motorized car had a fully detailed interior—it looks amazing, and you'd never know it was the motorized car to look at it. But this also means not nearly enough weight, and only one motorized truck, i.e. very little traction. I might add a little weight to it.

 

My Kato and Tomix locomotives, however, have absolutely no problem pulling 20+ freight cars up those inclines. Nor does my Kato 11-car E231-500 (which has two powered trucks, as usual)

This is what I was worried about. The power car in my Haruka set that I just got is very light but the detail is superb. It would be dissapointing to do the work then find when the trains come up to the climb they slow down to a snail's pace or worse still - stop!

I have a max of about 6ft to get the line from the baseboard to viaduct height - either in a straight line or a curve - but there is no point getting up to that height then suddenly decsending for the drop due to running out of space!!

 

So does the Kato Viaduct Pier Set provide ample incline to solve the 2-4% min? I get the feeling no.

[CaptOblivious]

I wouldn't worry about the Haruka…likely, it is just like my E231-500, and shorter too.

[ChrisV]

I wouldn't worry about the Haruka…likely, it is just like my E231-500, and shorter too.

 

Its my latest pride and joy.

 

 

Here are the incline sets I was looking at :

 

The first set would seem to cover the steeper 4% + increase. This is what is available to me immediately and my local hobby shop for a reasonable cost.

The latter is the Variation 12 set that shows a lot more promise in providing a more realistic, sustainable grade....at a lot more $$$$.

[CaptOblivious]

The piers in the second set look like a proper subset of the piers in the first set…whereas the first set include half-step increments (1, 1.5, 2,…), the second set only includes the whole-step increments (1,2,3,…)

 

I think the grade will be the same, if not steeper, with the second set.

[ChrisV]

The piers in the second set look like a proper subset of the piers in the first set…whereas the first set include half-step increments (1, 1.5, 2,…), the second set only includes the whole-step increments (1,2,3,…)

 

I think the grade will be the same, if not steeper, with the second set.

 

Actually I thought the same thing once I re-read the post.

For costs sake I will go with the cheaper option but I guess one box does one incline = 2 boxes required!

[scott]

With any luck, I'll be able to try our Haruka on the 4% grades this weekend, and I can let you know how it works.

[to2leo]

Hi Chris V,

I have both.

 

I would recommend the V12 over the traditional.  It is much more realistic and affordable then buying it individually.  Feel free to see my gallery and ask questions.

[disturbman]

I wonder how it feels IRL but in picture I real have the feeling the "all around the layout" viaduc is creating some kind of barrier between the observer and the normal level of the layout.

 

I feel that this layout will be more interesting, and less cramped, if (a part of) the lower level (maybe the yard) was in outside and not inside the viaduc.

 

I can see your point there. My layout will slightly longer than this but following the same feel. Having the yard inside the viaduct sits ok wil me as it has that ' crowded Japanese ' feel once you throw in a few buildings and trees etc.

 

True, anyway if you need more inspiration I found a video showcasting a rising layout. It might be too big for you (I think it is layed in one dedicated room) but it's nice anyway:

 

[to2leo]

I love that video!

[ChrisV]

I wonder how it feels IRL but in picture I real have the feeling the "all around the layout" viaduc is creating some kind of barrier between the observer and the normal level of the layout.

 

I feel that this layout will be more interesting, and less cramped, if (a part of) the lower level (maybe the yard) was in outside and not inside the viaduc.

 

I can see your point there. My layout will slightly longer than this but following the same feel. Having the yard inside the viaduct sits ok wil me as it has that ' crowded Japanese ' feel once you throw in a few buildings and trees etc.

 

True, anyway if you need more inspiration I found a video showcasting a rising layout. It might be too big for you (I think it is layed in one dedicated room) but it's nice anyway:

 

 

That had double viaduct height - holy cow!!

Thanks for the video reference.

[Bernard]

This modeler has an interesting design where not only does he have a yard but plenty of space for either a town, city or scenery. This would make a nice permanent layout.

[Mudkip Orange]

GRADES: All the major JDM mfrs use 4% as the default. Don't do this.

 

3% is the bare minimum, and you should really REALLY try to get 2%. That's in the range of real railroads.

 

Of course, if you're modeling Usui Pass you could always drop some 6.67%, but then you'd need helpers - for real.