Tomix 5563 for U.S. mining switchback

[velotrain]

I ordered one of these TCS units for a Japanese tram module in progress, then realized that one of the programs could be used for a traditional lumber or mining switchback operation.  I have wanted to build something like this for many, many years, but was held back by two bad options, being that I would either need to:

 

- "Manually" control all turnout throws and train reversals OR

 

- Install multiple censors and detection, turnout throw and reversal circuits, and wire all of them up.

 

The 5563 program #3 runs a single train thru a Z shaped program, handling all of these chores - although, four sensors are required at the direction change points.

 

I have submitted a proposal to the group organizing NNGC 2016 (U.S. National Narrow Gauge Convention) for a small (2' X 8') HOn30 layout using this capability.  A short train will run down from a mine to a processing plant, and a S.G. (standard gauge) train will run from there under the mountain (and back), likely using a Miniatronics circuit - which allows up to a minute delay on the reversal.  Here is the current trackplan - the numbers on the edges are the estimated elevation, in inches.

 

 

I originally planned to use two of the 5563 units for an even more dramatic track level change, but quickly realized that would leave far too little space between the tracks, and I would need to build vertical walls between the track near each switchback location.  Even with this design, I will need to plan the scenery carefully so it doesn't look too artificial.  The next step is building some clay models to see what is possible.

 

The grade will be steep, probably between 5-8% - similar to this on the Cass Railway, but without the luxury of so much space between the tracks.

 

 

Even though the convention is 18 months away, I am told that there have already been many demands for display space, so I am waiting to hear if I can get the space.  Another issue is that I (perhaps like many of us) tend to design, plan, and acquire materials for many projects, but complete relatively few of them.  However, the convention also will have a "square footer" contest, and as a backup I am already considering how I could build a switchback in a 1' square tower space - likely a "cubic footer  ;-) 

 

 

[velotrain]

_{While waiting for a decision on the larger layout, I've decided to build the Square-footer.}

 

_{This is a technique I've used for decades to evaluate layout designs, particularly those with a strong vertical presence.  I'll often exaggerate the elevations for emphasis, but in this case the vertical distances are actually at a smaller scale than the horizontal.  The model is 8" x 8", or 2/3 of what the actual layout will be.}

 

_{http://www.jnsforum.com/community/gallery/image/1819-square-footer-level-1/   http://www.jnsforum.com/community/gallery/image/1820-square-footer-level-2/}

   _{http://www.jnsforum.com/community/gallery/image/1821-square-footer-level-3/   http://www.jnsforum.com/community/gallery/image/1822-square-footer-level-4/}

 

 

_{Curve radius is 3", and gradients are likely 8-10% as shown.  However, the model has caused me to think that I can reduce that to maybe 6-7%, and still have sufficient clearance between the layers.  Scenery will be a challenge, and I have no previous experience doing rocks - I may try Aussie Mario Rapinett's "frock" technique.}

 

_{The engine is a Ruston 48DS, although the Tsugawa Yokou Super Mini 7T diesel is another possibility.  The Ruston has the same TU-7T chassis in it.  These mine wagons are actually HOf from the Busch grubenbahn set.  If I can't locate suitable N-scale wagons, I might go with Nigel Lawton's lovely HOe V-tippers - which should be small enough.}

 

_{There will be a mine at the top, and I don't know yet if the train will disappear into an adit, or get loaded from a bin and chute.  My current thought for the bottom is dumping through the track into a truck parked below, which will help increase vertical distance - even if I use a less aggressive grade.} 

 

_{Outside of the Tomix turnouts and sensor track sections, the rest will be flex, and I may remove every other tie to give a narrow gauge flavor.  Since it will look so much like N-scale track, I'm going to assert that it's Scotch gauge, although the last such track in Scotland was converted to S.G. before the middle of the 19th century.}

 

_{http://www.jnsforum.com/community/gallery/image/1823-square-footer-overhead/}

 

 

[katoftw]

Links don't work.

[velotrain]

They work for me - is that only because the images are in my album?

 

I'll try another of the options.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[katoftw]

Second lot of pics works.  Look like a fun little cute layout.  I say cute cos it look so small and cuddly.

 

I am amazed by the size of the train next to the 6 inch ruler.

Edited March 13, 2015 by katoftw

[velotrain]

The "Square-footer" contest entries are always static mini-dioramas, but there's nothing in the rules that says it can't be operable.  My other thought is that since the "real estate" is limited, the way to expand is to go vertical.  I could build a "double helix" round-and-round, but I'm really looking forward to trying out the Tomix TCS unit.  I'd like to think that watching an automated switchback will be way more interesting than a train running in circles - no matter how many there are of them.  

 

Hmmm . . . maybe I shouldn't be so fast to say that.  How about a train on a helix, enclosed, but maybe half-a-dozen varied "peep hole" scenes around the edge?

 

I also have a static idea that takes advantage of height, depicting the Chicago Tunnel operations below street level, and then an elevated L line above the street.  

 

> I am amazed by the size of the train next to the 6 inch ruler.

 

That's why it's there  ;-)

[velotrain]

I set-up TCS Mode 3 tonight, which is the program that I'd use for the switchback.  Here's a video:

 

https://youtu.be/vQIA6fD2NLs

 

However, I was running it again later and some flakiness developed after maybe 15 minutes.

 

In the diagram from the manual below, the tram was stopping just after switch #2 as it was heading for sensor #2. 

 

[katoftw]

so the point switch was directing power after a while?  there is no power feeding in this section.

 

you could a power feeds to each end to see if you can overcome this issue.

[velotrain]

so the point switch was directing power after a while?  there is no power feeding in this section.

 

you could a power feeds to each end to see if you can overcome this issue.

 

I don't understand what you're saying.

 

There's a power feed to the left of sensor 4 - shown in the diagram, and the turnout uses power routing to pass it to the two tracks, based on how the turnout is set.

 

Things were running fine until the point where the TCS stopped feeding power from that feed beyond switch 2 - for whatever reason.

[katoftw]

i meant "was not directing power" sorry.

 

the point/switch/turnout has a power feeder on one side.  but none on the other.  so it directs where the power goes.  of if you are lossing power to the section of track the has sensor 2 on it.

 

it is either the switch/point/turnout not directing the power, or the joiner connecting 2 pieces of track not doing it's job somewhere along this section.

[kvp]

The usual reason is the incomplete switching of the turnout. This is usually caused by a too short impulse or too low voltage. As the turnouts heat up after prolonged use, their resistence increases and voltages that were barely enough turn out to be not enough. The same thing can happen if the turnout driver circuit overheats because of overvoltage on its input.

[velotrain]

Thanks for this information kvp - it explains some of what I've been seeing.

 

I made a video of the failure:

 

https://youtu.be/CaQYhgMUZOw

 

In this situation, the turnout is throwing, as the tram runs through it.  However, what isn't happening is the power routing to the following track.

 

This provokes some questions.  I don't know just how Tomix markets the 5563 in Japan, but it seems to me that if this situation is fairly common, then TCS has limited usability?  Do Japanese users only run the 5563 for maybe 15 minutes at a time?

 

I'm interested in using it for all-day operation at exhibitions.

 

Rich K told me that Doug Coster used a pair of 5563 units to control 4 trains on the 2-track Shinkansen line of his Setagaya exhibition layout, so it appears to be possible.  Given the speed at which he ran these, I would think that the turnouts at the back would be thrown much more frequently than those on my Mode 3 example?

I don't know why he wouldn't have had this problem.

 

On my Mode 3, would providing a delay time of 15-20 seconds be enough to let the turnouts cool down?

I plan to do that anyway, largely for realism.

 

There will be a transfer from a mine at the top, and a dump to a processing plant at the bottom, so I would ideally like to have longer delays at the end points, but will set that to a time that suggests something is happening before the train moves again, while not long enough to lose the attention of viewers. 

 

Even at the turnouts, a crew member has to dismount and throw the point, so that will require a delay as well.

 

There will also be a HOn2 mine train at the top, and a SG HO train being loaded at the processing plant, then disappearing through the mountain, so there should always be something moving.  These two will just shuttle back and forth, the latter with a longer delay.

 

The other thing I was considering is replacing the one turnout that repeatedly fails.  However, what I don't know is if the other one would have been soon to follow.

 

I think I will do experiment using delay with the current turnout, and then maybe replace it and do more tests.

[velotrain]

Well - I had Mode 3 with a 20 second delay running happily for 45 minutes, but when I went to check at the hour mark I found the tram stopped in the starting position, and both directional arrows on the TCS unit flashing at a high rate.

 

I'm curious if KVP knows what would cause this?

 

My goal was to leave it running unattended at an exhibition, so I could wander around and not be tied to the layout.  I considered using some sort of timer to turn the system off briefly for a rest every 15-20 minutes, but the problem with that is the train could be anywhere, and needs to be at the starting location when the power comes back on.

 

However, if there is a 45-60 minute limit, I could return within that period to turn it off (while the train is at "home") and let it recover.

[velotrain]

I had been planning on using a Busch HOf engine for the mine shuttle, but then saw this neat little battery mine engine:

 

 

 

It's on this site:  http://www.narrow-garage.com/     under the HOn2 button.

 

For those in the U.S., and perhaps elsewhere, you can get the chassis for it here:

http://www.searails.com/powermax.html

 

There's also an English language version of the site   http://www.narrow-japan.com/   , but it only handles some of the stock.  If you want something not shown on the English site, send an email to Takashi Tsukuno at RXK00202@nifty.com

 

[velotrain]

TCS vs. the competition

 

I previously mentioned that there are other systems for automatically controlling switchbacks, but you would need to separately buy and install a lot of components.

 

I just found an example I thought I'd share.

 

http://www.azatrax.com/switchback-railway.html

 

The components required for a two-turnout switchback, which is what the TCS Mode 3 does, is $122.75.  Not to mention a lot of installation work for the sensors, the Tortoise switch machines, and all the custom wiring required.

 

Let's look at the Tomix solution.  The 5563 is currently $73 at H.S.

The track-mounted sensor is $27 for two, for a total of $127.

 

While this is barely more than the Azatrax solution, the TCS is plug-and-play.

 

TCS also gives you 7 other programs.

 

TCS doesn't require any permanently mounted components, so you can use your turnouts and sensors for any and all modes.

 

TCS doesn't require any separate, permanent wiring.

 

Case closed.

[ozman2009]

Can TCS be used for any scale?

[velotrain]

Gary - I need to defer to the electronics experts like kvp for an authoritative answer on that.

 

Since you're in Z scale, I'd say that it wouldn't be a question of power, although that would be an issue for HO or larger.

 

I see two primary barriers, the least of which is power feeds / sensors.  Since these are based on clips to be inserted into Tomix track, you'd need to resize / reshape them for Z track, and then chisel out a slot under your track for them.

 

The greater difficulty would be the turnouts, and this is where Viktor or someone else would know best.  I gather that the 5563 requires some input from the turnout, as well as sending the pulses to throw it.  So, I think you would need to modify the Tomix turnout mechanism to throw your Z-scale turnout, or rebuild the Tomix turnout to Z gauge.   Both of these are difficult, and would require sophisticated electronic and engineering skills.

 

I'm planning to use TCS for HOn30, but all I will need to do is somehow camouflage the Tomix turnouts so they don't shout "N scale".

 

Depending on just what you want to do (if you know), your better option would be to use component-based systems - similar to Azatrax, depending on function desired. It would require a lot of installation work, including wiring.  That's the beauty of TCS for me, so much is included in one small box, while the other components just plug into it.

 

If you know just what automation you want, mention it here, as perhaps forum members could suggest solutions.

[ozman2009]

Thanks very much Charles for your most informative reply. The question was motivated by pure curiosity - I don't have anything specific in mind.

[kvp]

 

Can TCS be used for any scale?

Yes. If the voltage or power is enough, it can be used directly. If it isn't, then you need a traction power amplifier, where the TCS only controls the speed, but a stronger power pack with a DC input provides the power.

 

For turnouts, it can be used with Kato, Tomix and Rokuhan Z turnouts without big modifications as the Tomix unit is dumb and just outputs a short bipolar signal regardless what is connected to it. For everything else, you need releays, that amplifiy the power. For bipolar constant power turnout motors, like conrad and tortoise, you need bipolar relays, for 3 wire classic point motors (like Maerklin Z), you could add opposing diodes to the inputs and tie them together to convert them to pipolar operation or add morse relays with diodes and amplify the signal from the TCS for larger scales.

 

For track sensors, you can use Tomix and Maerklin Z sensors or use any open collector or relay output of any sensor to drive the TCS inputs. Even magnet and reed relay pairs could work. Track occupancy detectors with optoisolated open collector outputs are the most reliable ones and they are fully TCS compatible.

 

So in short, the TCS unit doesn't really care abut what you connect to it as long as the electrical characteristics match. If they don't it will try to power it anyway, so be careful not to damage it by miswiring. If you are in Z scale, most Rokuhan and Maerklin parts are useable with it without much hacking.