Interurban end of the line

[Nick_Burman]

Hi,

 

Despite of lately dabbling with Latin American HOn30 narrow gauge and Japanese N scale, I have a soft spot for US-style interurbans. The recent introduction of the (beautiful) Bowser Perley A. Thomas double-truck trolley car (a city car, but similar equipment was used in interurban service in New England and the Mid-Atlantic states), the increasing choice of interurban body shells on Shapeways and the presence of two electric locos on my shelf have spurred me to try and design an interurban layout. The result is as attached... the design was culled from the "Timesaver +" article which appeared in "Great Model Railroad Planning 2003". It's designed to go into 2 modules using FREMO interfaces (500mm across) - the widest module is 1000mm wide at the bulge.. The biggest change is the addition of a wye to turn single-ended interurban cars - 12" radius so no locomotives or freight cars unless fitted with radial couplings. The building inside the wye is a substation; to the left is the station and sitting along the bottom leg of of the wye is a freight house. Other buildings are industries. Because of the flatland constraints imposed by the FREMO standards the layout is located somewhere west of the Mississipi - Iowa or Missouri are good possibilities.

 

 

What do you guys think about it? There some changes already due though...

 

Cheers NB

[bikkuri bahn]

Because of the flatland constraints imposed by the FREMO standards the layout is located somewhere west of the Mississipi - Iowa or Missouri are good possibilities.

 

I would personally call that an advantage rather than a constraint- I think some of the best prototypical modeling comes from the Midwest milieu, because it forces the modelbuilder to focus on the immediate railway scene rather than on (to me) distracting scenic features like mountains and gorges.

[Ken Ford]

I like it! There's a video of Bill Clouser's layout ca. 1966 making the rounds showing how reliably he was able to set up his wire for backpoling when wyeing and switching - would you be trying actual pole on wire?

[Bob_NZ]

Hi

 

Perhaps consider moving the road so that it is to the right of the wye - ie not having the wye straddling the road.  

During operations you would be able to store a car on the wye without fouling what appears to be an access road.  Or perhaps this is where another module would connect ?

 

Bob

[bikkuri bahn]

I would leave the road as it is (or maybe a bit wider as they are in warehouse districts), but perhaps use a different paving surface where the track abuts the freighthouse, such as cobble or brick, roughly arranged in parts to imply some benign neglect under heavy use, and the use of the freight doors by both railcars and truck.

 

*I just realized this would be an electrified track, so perhaps a separate road and track would be more realistic, unless you plan a wide span for the catenary.

Edited February 26, 2015 by bikkuri bahn

[marknewton]

Nick, go with Iowa. Lots of nice prototypes to be inspired by from there. Also, I have the Westinghouse appraisal of the Waterloo Cedar Falls and Northern, the CERA publication "Iowa Trolleys" and the recent Morning Sun book featuring Iowa traction if you need more ideas/information/inspiration.

 

Also have a look at this website. It's not the midwest, but it's interesting nonetheless.

 

http://wvncrails.weebly.com/piedmont--northernyesterday-and-today.html

 

I'd leave the tail track of the wye where it is, as I've seen many examples of that arrangement. I'd also keep the industries as they currently are - even in very rural areas you had a surprising number of businesses with rail service, often all jammed in on top of one another.

 

Looks like an interesting project.

 

Cheers,

 

Mark.

Edited February 26, 2015 by marknewton

[Mudkip Orange]

Because of the flatland constraints imposed by the FREMO standards the layout is located somewhere west of the Mississipi - Iowa or Missouri are good possibilities.

 

...or suburban CHI. The North Shore is an option; you can run the Electroliner if Con-Cor ever releases another one.

 

But for my money I'd go with the Roarin' Elgin. Most of the system was third rail, and operations were an intricate mixture of shuttle trains, locals, expresses, and "L" turnbacks, radiating out onto four separate branches. Among other visually interesting scenes there is a diagonal overcrossing of the C&NW at Wheaton which has since been turned into a bike trail.

[westfalen]

Even in mountainous country railway yards are usually located on a flat piece of ground.  When I go following abandoned lines the station sites are often quite obvious because they are the flattest piece ground in the town.

[Nick_Burman]

I like it! There's a video of Bill Clouser's layout ca. 1966 making the rounds showing how reliably he was able to set up his wire for backpoling when wyeing and switching - would you be trying actual pole on wire?

 

Ken,

 

This for the time being is all vapourware - a design exercise. I've got too many irons in the fire (today I asked my LHS if he wouldn't take one...) and my private life is undergoing a bit of an upheaval now, so there is no way I'll get started down this line, at least for the time being.

 

As for the OHW, well, I would like to make it functional, if possible.

 

 

Cheers NB

[Nick_Burman]

I would leave the road as it is (or maybe a bit wider as they are in warehouse districts), but perhaps use a different paving surface where the track abuts the freighthouse, such as cobble or brick, roughly arranged in parts to imply some benign neglect under heavy use, and the use of the freight doors by both railcars and truck.

 

*I just realized this would be an electrified track, so perhaps a separate road and track would be more realistic, unless you plan a wide span for the catenary.

 

BB,

 

 

Alas I can't change the roads in the drawing, these are set by default by the track planning software (SCARM). But on a putative layout yes I would do the roads in cobblestone/brick. And the OHW by the warehouse would be hung using span wires.

 

 

Cheers NB

[Nick_Burman]

Nick, go with Iowa. Lots of nice prototypes to be inspired by from there. Also, I have the Westinghouse appraisal of the Waterloo Cedar Falls and Northern, the CERA publication "Iowa Trolleys" and the recent Morning Sun book featuring Iowa traction if you need more ideas/information/inspiration.

 

Also have a look at this website. It's not the midwest, but it's interesting nonetheless.

 

http://wvncrails.weebly.com/piedmont--northernyesterday-and-today.html

 

I'd leave the tail track of the wye where it is, as I've seen many examples of that arrangement. I'd also keep the industries as they currently are - even in very rural areas you had a surprising number of businesses with rail service, often all jammed in on top of one another.

 

Looks like an interesting project.

 

Cheers,

 

Mark.

 

Iowa is one possibility, although Missouri (namely the Joplin, Mo. area) is also a possibility - interurbans sharing trackage with trains carrying lead from mines to smelters behind steeplecabs and box motors. I thought about California too - inspired by the Petaluma & Santa Rosa. In any case, it's west of the Mississippi as I rather prefer "steam road" interurbans.

 

The page about the Piedmont & Northern is very interesting. More interesting though are the station track arrangements. And that Gastonia city car is so cute!

 

Mudkip Orange: I like the Chicago lines but the thought of having to buy/build/modify all those interurban cars to create a credible CNS&M/CA&E fleet leaves me trembling. In any case I'm looking for something more bucolic - a combine, gently rocking from side to side at 35-45mph, the groan of traction motors mingling with the sounds of cartons of day-old chicks in the baggage compartment and the ching-ching of the fare register as the conductor does its rounds.

 

As far as the Midwestern lines east of the Mississippi are concerned my favourite is Illinois Terminal. I would have liked to model somewhere around the Alton - Granite City - East St. Louis area, where I could run interurbans, steam and even diesels together - maybe the Grafton railbus would put in a cameo appearance from time to time. But again the issue of trying to source (and then rebuild/modify) interurbans to build a decent fleet would be a pain. For the time being better freelance and use what is at hand.

 

 

Cheers NB

[Mudkip Orange]

something more bucolic ... freelance and use what is at hand.

 

The Elgin and Antioch Electric Railway was chartered in late 1896, with the intent to form a northerly extension of the Aurora, Elgin and Fox River system. Ridership was initially poor, but the line did a brisk business hauling dairy products, especially milk. The line gained practical (as opposed to legal) independence from the Fox River Lines with the Aurora, Elgin, and Chicago acquired the latter to become the CA&E. (The CA&E was little interested in the E&A, as the E&A was principally agricultural while the new C&AE was focused on suburban and exurban passenger traffic.) The bankruptcy of many of the the southern Wisconsin interurbans made them attractive acquisition targets for the E&A, and by 1914 the line extended north from Antioch to Burlington, WI.

 

The E&A's financial health and low market cap made it an early target for Samuel Insull, who acquired the system in 1919. Under Insull's management, the line was extended to Kenosha in 1925, with a connection to the North Shore's new Skokie Valley Line made when that line opened in 1926. Meanwhile, the Burlington branch was extended to the newly-developing resort communities at Eagle Lake, Wind Lake in 1924, and Muskego Lake in 1927. A planned western and northern bypass of Milwaukee was shelved, and the line was instead connected into the Milwaukee Electric Railway and Light streetcar trackage in West Allis on the eve of the great depression.

 

Plagued by scandal, Insull's interests divested the E&A in 1935. As the MER&L began to convert its streetcars into bus routes, the E&A acquired several pieces of secondhand rolling stock from the Milwaukee line, including several Peter Witt cars originally built for Saint Louis.

 

As of the start of 1941, the E&A continues as a principally agricultural and rural line. Though unburdened by debt (a legacy of the Insull years), the line barely breaks even, and its future is uncertain. Occasional through cars from the North Shore or the CA&E suggests the possibility of suburban service as Chicago sprawls outward, but the continuing adoption of the automobile by commuters may render that all moot. War is raging across the Atlantic, but President Roosevelt appears determined to stay out of it, reserving his most pointed criticism for the Empire of Japan's actions in the South Pacific...

 

[kvp]

A less fantasy idea i like: (the text is from wikipedia)

"The Skokie Swift

The Skokie Swift high-speed (5 miles in 6-1/2 minutes) shuttle service, between Howard Street in Chicago and Dempster Street, Skokie, was inaugurated on April 20, 1964, as a federally-aided mass transportation demonstration project.

Participation in the net project costs was divided between the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development, CTA and the Village of Skokie.

The success of this project had attracted nationwide attention. On its first day of service, Skokie Swift carried nearly 4,000 passengers in a 16-hour period compared to approximately 1,600 passengers carried by the North Shore Line from the Dempster Terminal in a 12-hour period before the railroad terminated. Ridership continued to increase and by the end of the first year, nearly 6,000 passengers were riding the new line each weekday.

Because of the weekday success, Saturday service was inaugurated, with more than 2,000 riders. At the end of the two-year experimental period, 3,500,000 persons had used the new service, and CTA authorized operation of the Skokie Swift as a permanent part of its rapid transit system.

The success of the Skokie Swift route demonstrated that many motorists will forsake their cars when high-speed mass transit is provided and, to a minor extent, gave birth to the first use of light rail before the term was ever coined.

One of the distinctive features of the five-mile (8 km) line was that approximately half was equipped with third rail while the other half was equipped with catenary left over from the Chicago North Shore & Milwaukee Railroad. Trains switched non-stop from third rail to overhead and vice versa using distinctive pan trolleys designed by Skokie Swift Project Manager George Krambles."

 

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/pictures/17630/CTA%20Skokie%20Swift-660412%20Oakton%20St.%20Skokie,%20IL%201.jpg

http://ceramembersblog.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/cera864.jpg?w=966&h=1248

 

Anyone modelling it can choose overhead or 3rd rail (or both) and it can be run with single cars or longer multiple units. What's more interesting is that some of the rolling stock used there is available from shapeways in N and could be run on a Tomix chassis.

[ozman2009]

Thanks KVP. Is it still running?

[kvp]

Yes. Nowdays it's called the CTA Yellow line and the overhead portion was changed to full 3rd rail in 2004 with a few small improvements since then. It currently uses the newest 5000 series cars in 2 car units. There are plans for an extension northward from the current terminus on the old North Shore right of way.

[Mudkip Orange]

Thanks KVP. Is it still running?

 

It's never been healthier. The Skokie Swift, rebranded the "yellow line" in the pre-FIFA '93 renaming, continues to operate. The third rail was extended to Dempster in 2004 and the pantographs were subsequently removed from the 5000-series cars. An infill station at Oakton Street was added in 2012, and the line currently carries 7,000 daily boardings.

[Mudkip Orange]

So not only did we post at the same time, we ordered our sentence structures the same.

[Nick_Burman]

Thanks KVP. Is it still running?

 

Yes, but CTA converted it completely to 3rd rail a couple of years ago so trains could run directly into Chicago.

 

Cheers NB

Edited March 3, 2015 by Nick_Burman

[ozman2009]

Thanks gents. It's good to see an electric commuter operation retained in this age of freeways and the all-powerful fossil fuel lobby.

[Nick_Burman]

The Elgin and Antioch Electric Railway was chartered in late 1896, with the intent to form a northerly extension of the Aurora, Elgin and Fox River system. Ridership was initially poor, but the line did a brisk business hauling dairy products, especially milk. The line gained practical (as opposed to legal) independence from the Fox River Lines with the Aurora, Elgin, and Chicago acquired the latter to become the CA&E. (The CA&E was little interested in the E&A, as the E&A was principally agricultural while the new C&AE was focused on suburban and exurban passenger traffic.) The bankruptcy of many of the the southern Wisconsin interurbans made them attractive acquisition targets for the E&A, and by 1914 the line extended north from Antioch to Burlington, WI.

 

The E&A's financial health and low market cap made it an early target for Samuel Insull, who acquired the system in 1919. Under Insull's management, the line was extended to Kenosha in 1925, with a connection to the North Shore's new Skokie Valley Line made when that line opened in 1926. Meanwhile, the Burlington branch was extended to the newly-developing resort communities at Eagle Lake, Wind Lake in 1924, and Muskego Lake in 1927. A planned western and northern bypass of Milwaukee was shelved, and the line was instead connected into the Milwaukee Electric Railway and Light streetcar trackage in West Allis on the eve of the great depression.

 

Plagued by scandal, Insull's interests divested the E&A in 1935. As the MER&L began to convert its streetcars into bus routes, the E&A acquired several pieces of secondhand rolling stock from the Milwaukee line, including several Peter Witt cars originally built for Saint Louis.

 

As of the start of 1941, the E&A continues as a principally agricultural and rural line. Though unburdened by debt (a legacy of the Insull years), the line barely breaks even, and its future is uncertain. Occasional through cars from the North Shore or the CA&E suggests the possibility of suburban service as Chicago sprawls outward, but the continuing adoption of the automobile by commuters may render that all moot. War is raging across the Atlantic, but President Roosevelt appears determined to stay out of it, reserving his most pointed criticism for the Empire of Japan's actions in the South Pacific...

 

 

Thanks Mudkip, that's a good yarn you've spun there. However if my idea of passenger service is bucolic, the same doesn't go for freight - my interurban would have a discreetly successful interchange activity, like some of the Iowa lines, enough to guarantee survival to the present day (most likely without the wires).

 

Cheers NB

[marknewton]

Nick, I meant to ask earlier - what scale are you intending to build this in?

 

Cheers,

 

Mark.

[Nick_Burman]

Nick, I meant to ask earlier - what scale are you intending to build this in?

 

Cheers,

 

Mark.

 

HO, of course - N scale interurbans are as rare as hen's teeth...

 

 

Cheers NB

[marknewton]

Yeah, I should have realised it would be HO. How are you progressing? Reading this thread got me thinking, and I dragged all my old Suydam interurban cars out of storage to do a bit of work on them. I also found the map and track diagram supplements that were included in the "Iowa Trolleys" book. There's som einteresting locations featured in them if you'd like them scanned and posted.

 

Cheers,

 

Mark.

[Ken Ford]

We had one of our periodic O scale traction meets Saturday, so now I'm all fired up to get a car finished for the next meet.  I think my CA&E 311 will be the victim...

 

Traction is addictive!

[Nick_Burman]

Yeah, I should have realised it would be HO. How are you progressing? Reading this thread got me thinking, and I dragged all my old Suydam interurban cars out of storage to do a bit of work on them. I also found the map and track diagram supplements that were included in the "Iowa Trolleys" book. There's som einteresting locations featured in them if you'd like them scanned and posted.

 

Cheers,

 

Mark.

 

Mark,

 

Thank you for your support, but this project is just vaporware for the time being, what with present day living vicissitudes...let alone the various other modelling irons in the fire (some of which must go before I can even consider another project). Having said that I'm interested in the maps and track diagrams for future reference. I'm also interested in your repowering projects, please do keep us abreast of them.

 

 

Cheers NB