Sound decoders for our N scale trains?

[spacecadet]

A few recent threads have got me thinking seriously about finally making the switch to DCC. But being a noob at it, I have a couple questions.

 

First, has anyone successfully added sound via wired decoder to either an N-scale Kato or Tomix shinkansen (EMU) or separate (electric) locomotive? It seems like it would be possible with a shinkansen or other MU, or even with a steam locomotive, but my electric locomotives (which are both Tomix) seem like they don't have room for even a decoder, much less a speaker. I'm guessing that's probably true but hoping it isn't, since on-board sound is one of my favorite things about DCC in HO scale. It seems like the Loksound Micro 4.0 is the smallest overall decoder/speaker combo, but it still seems too big.

 

For EMU trains where it seems like there's more room, I don't suppose any of the decoder makers has actual shinkansen sound files, do they? I couldn't find any myself.

 

Thanks for any help/tips.

[kvp]

The Kato made european nohab locomoitves have space for a sound decoder and they even have a hole under the roof for the speaker. Older japanese designs don't have much space, but you can mill out the metal if you really want to add a decoder. Newer locomotives can have drop in decoder boards as replacement light boards, so it is possible to make sound decoder equipped boards. I don't know any tough.

 

On the other hand, there are lots of analog off board sound systems for N scale. Both Tomix and Kato have such systems and there are some 3rd party ones too.

[HantuBlauLOL]

That's why Kato released a sound box..

[spacecadet]

That's why Kato released a sound box..

I know, it just isn't quite the same as on board sound. For me it ruins the illusion.

 

I'm not *too* afraid of milling my own frames (though I might buy a cheap practice engine before I try one of my real ones). I was having a hard time finding any Google results on what tools to even use for milling, but it seems like a Dremel would work and I have one of those. It seems like a project, but I like a good project as long as I'm reasonably confident of success.

 

I'll try it pretty soon.

[kvp]

I would suggest a jeweler's hand file. It's much harder to ruin something with it. Imho a dremel is too strong for this.

[Martijn Meerts]

There's a few disadvantages to sound in N-scale.. The biggest one being that it just doesn't sound very well due to the small speakers. There's also usually no space for a speaker box, which means the (plastic) loco shell will become the speaker box, which sounds pretty terrible. Shinkansen and other EMU/DMU etc. have space to fit a decent speaker box, but it'll be hard to hide.

 

Another disadvantage is the milling itself. Not only will the loco become quite a bit lighter (relatively), but if you don't mill in the center of the loco, or the same amount on either side, the loco will become a bit unbalanced, which can affect performance (usually only noticeable in the long term). 

[E6系]

Interesting comments.

 

I find a dremel is excellent for milling.  I also use an engraver.  It is smaller and lighter and slower, but it leaves furry edges on the plastic, even with a new bit.  The dremel makes a sharper, cleaner cut.

 

I agree with Martijn's comment about speaker quality in small scale sound ... even HO.  I have seen G-scale with excellent sound but then, the big diesel sounded entirely out of "scale" with the 40cm model.

 

I wonder, should the sound be scaled also?

[kvp]

 

I wonder, should the sound be scaled also?

Yes, probably with the distance. This means the sound should be similar what we would hear when we see the trains at a similar size than the models. In reality this means seeing N scale models models from 1 real meter should mean we should hear them like they are 150 real meters away.

[spacecadet]

I would suggest a jeweler's hand file. It's much harder to ruin something with it. Imho a dremel is too strong for this.

Thanks for the tip - I will try both. I'll have to get a jeweler's file but I'm sure I can just buy one on Ebay. Before looking into this, whenever someone talked about milling their locomotives, I was picturing guys with giant milling machines in their basements, like this: http://www.harborfreight.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/i/m/image_11249.jpg

 

if you don't mill in the center of the loco, or the same amount on either side, the loco will become a bit unbalanced, which can affect performance (usually only noticeable in the long term).

Thanks, I hadn't thought of that either. I'll keep that in mind for my first project. It's looking like that first project is going to be my Tomix EF510-500 - I didn't realize it's actually a really cheap loco. Not much out there for less. If I mess it up, I guess I'll just buy another one.

 

I wonder, should the sound be scaled also?

I'm thinking it should, which means I don't think I'll mind the tiny speaker sound. I actually want it to sound like a train off in the distance. That said, I *am* a little worried about speaker placement even with milling, but I have to see what these really tiny speakers look like in person.

 

I have to check the inside of the shell again but I know my EF510 has some protruding air conditioning packs or something on top, with air vents... I'm wondering if I can stick a speaker in there and actually drill some tiny holes where the vents are (with a pushpin or something) to let the sound out.

Edited February 4, 2015 by spacecadet

[cteno4]

Sound like light follows the inverse square law thus it does not scale linearly. This is why they are tricky to model properly to make the mind's eye perceive it to be real. Like light, sound is usually over done taking into account of the scale viewing distances and the sources are usually much louder than they should be.

 

Cheers

 

Jeff

[westfalen]

To put sound in a Japanese diesel or electric loco you'd need to find a decoder with the typical whistle Japanese locos have, an EF510 rolling through town blowing a Amtrak 5 chime K5LA just wouldn't be right.

[kvp]

Many sound decoders allow editing of the sound samples, so it's possible to just replace the horn. Otherwise many european trains sound just like the japanese ones, so it's possible to use those sample sets if the real one is not avilable.

[spacecadet]

After opening up my EF510 again, I'm not sure anymore that I'm going to try it on that loco (or my EF81). I might just go basic DCC with those, at least for now. I'm sure I can make a silent decoder fit, but there's not the space on top for the speaker that I thought there was.

 

I also actually didn't realize how expensive the better sound decoders are; this is going to add up quick! I had looked on ModelTrainStuff.com initially and I think I was looking at their "You save:" amounts rather than the sale price.

 

I'm still thinking to try it on my shinkansen, which seem to have more room, even if I have to put the speaker in the passenger compartment (and I only have two of them to do).

[kvp]

A good sound decoder will cost around the same amount of money as a cheaper laptop or a middle category tablet. The reason is that you can sell less sound decoders than laptops so per unit developement costs are higher. This is one of the reasons why many people choose more trains over DCC. Of course some clubs require your locos to be DCC-ed to run on the club layout. So far i have 3 decoders, just for club running. Usually I replace the analog plugs at home, but i'm very near the point of just making a multi locomotive mixed dc/dcc system out of some spare parts.

[Spaceman Spiff]

I have some sound units (non Japanese) that sound really good. I believe they are ESU decoders. All I can say is stay away from the MRC sound as it's junk.

 

 

 

Spiff

[cteno4]

Been chatter over on the n scale yahoo list recently about the sugar cube speakers giving great sound. The back the speaker up on a hard surface (ie the chassis) or reflect the sound and then have a sound box over them that gives a richer sound that can be tailored for the locos usual sounds than just a speaker would (using the shell for the soundbox.)

 

http://www.sbs4dcc.com/sugarcubespeakers.html

 

Jeff

[westfalen]

My latest sound installs are a couple of ESU Loksound Select Micros with sugar cube speakers in a pair of Intermountain F7's.  They are about the smallest sound decoders and have excellent sound and motor control.  They sell for $80 from Litchfield Station where I get most of my decoders from because they save on postage by sending them in a padded envelope rather than a large box full of foam packing.

 

The more recent versions of MRC decoders are not bad and they make drop-in decoders for most American diesels, something none of the others seem able to do.  I have been using them in steam locos, including a pair of D51's but I have a Loksound coming for my Kato UP FEF3 so I may change my mind when I get it installed.

[HantuBlauLOL]

FYI, micro ace has a Kani 24 with diesel generator sound effect..

 

http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10246732

 

 

Btw anyone has this thing? If yes, how it works? I mean the circuit.

Edited February 6, 2015 by HantuBlauLOL

[kvp]

 

how it works? I mean the circuit.

I don't have one, but analog sound units work the same way as the Tomix track cleaner. They take the voltage from the tracks and emit a sound. Locomotive units use the voltage and its change to modulate the sound, but the generator noise is constant, so you only need a minimal voltage to turn it on. This should work with CL capable controller too.

[spacecadet]

I have an HO Broadway Limited GG1 that has DC and DCC sound. The DC sound actually works pretty well, but you have to do weird, scary things like quickly reversing direction (while the train is in motion) to activate the horn. It has a generator sound too, though, that turns on when you just lightly turn the throttle. The loco itself starts moving at a little higher voltage than most. I imagine the Micro Ace model probably works similarly. The problem with DC sound, though, is that there's just not a lot you can do. It's neat having a train automatically making generator and motor sounds, but anything beyond that has to be kind of hacked in.

 

That loco is actually what made me want sound in my Japanese trains, though. I want it in all my trains, Japanese or American, HO or N. It's just really cool and makes things feel a lot closer to reality.

[Martijn Meerts]

I did a sound decoder install in a Kato H0 E5 set a while ago for someone on the forum. I used the biggest speaker I could find, and then used some 1mm MDF sheet to build a custom sound box instead of using the default plastic sound box that came with the speaker. The custom sound box design was based on hifi speaker designs. It's a lot of work, but in the end, the sound was much clearer than with a plastic sound box or using the train's shell itself as a sound box.

 

The biggest issues was actually getting some prototypical E5 sounds going on. I managed to eventually grab some from youtube video's, but they didn't come out all too well, and then grabbed some more general announcements from a CD I have, and just added a bit of an effect to it so it sounded like a station announcement system.

 

 

For N scale though, doing such a sound box would be difficult at best, and having the volume of the sound 'correct' for the scale would mean you won't hear any sounds other than the noise the train itself makes. Like Jeff said, some things just don't scale well, including sound, light, water and smoke.

[kvp]

Does anyone know a few videos with audio that were taken between 100-150 meters away from various japanese trains? It would be a good starting point to judge the volume level. If it's audibe, then a sound decoder makes sense.

 

ps: Tomix cab controls go around this by making everything sound like you are actually in the cab.

[mrp]

FYI, micro ace has a Kani 24 with diesel generator sound effect..

 

http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10246732

 

Btw anyone has this thing? If yes, how it works? I mean the circuit.

 

I’m wonder what happened to that Micro Ace release?

 

Usually you can find some clips on YouTube of specific models in operation.

 

The only ones I could see of the “engine sound” models are old pre-release videos from trade shows:

 

If I’m reading it correctly, this link seems to say that the Micro Ace “Engine Sound” function might have been a bit of a lemon (smoking then catching on fire).

[kvp]

I have one more idea for electric trains. If you are running analog, then it would be possible to emulate the traction inverter by modulating a PWM controller to output the frequencies as the real one. Modern DCC decoders and PWM controllers either use a high frequency that is not audible or low frequency like 50 or 100 Hz. The low one is good for resistor or thyristor controlled AC locomotives and the plain DC and high frequency PWM is good for resistor control DC units, where the DC motor noise is all you could hear. (and the air compressor/motor generator which is not part of the traction circuit) For modern units, like a Siemens VVF drive unit, it would be possible to modulate the PWM signal's frequency to match the frequencies of the real one, while modulating the PWM width to match the voltage part. The result should be a very similar sound and acceleration to the original unit. With a chopped PWM drive, it's won't damage the DC motors of the models.

 

For DC diesel sound units, it would be possible to get a PIC or other small microcontroller to store the engine sound, like the two videos above, but for cheap chips, only with rather bad 1-2 bit 5khz quality (like the sound above). You would need a very similar circuit that the pantograph flicker unit in another thread uses to make it work and maybe an analog pin equipped chip (ex. pic12f510) to detect the voltage and change the tone of the motor sound. Connecting a cheap piezo speaker in 1 bit differential mode could be done without a power amplifier, like the old pc speaker audio playback programs did it. If you glue this thin speaker to the shell or underframe, then it gives a rather large sound box with very low quality and a rather low volume. But this sounds doable and easy to retrofit into anything, even a tomytec train collection dmu and could be extended to provide generic brake and compressor sounds with a more expensive microcontroller. Quality won't be as good as a real DCC sound decoder tough.

 

ps: I'm still looking for videos that show japanese trains running in a quiet environment from a 100-150 meter distance.

[loulasalle]

 

Not so much for a sound decoder, but can anyone help with adding DCC to Kato, and Tomix N scale trains, either the MU set or individual locomotive. I have quite a collection now, and coming from three O scale, i am missing the ability to run multiple trains on one track.

my problem is not knowing how, and also the ability to handle the small parts. I just had a break thru adding lights to passenger cars. can someone HELP???!!!