custom viaduct station

[katoftw]

my short ends are 71mm long with 51mm of platform.

 

the normal ends and #4 ends are within 20mm (180mm and 200mm) of each, i didn't seperate the two.  i just referred to them as long.

[jrcrunch]

is 3x 248mm and 2x island platform short for an 8 car shinkansen?  

 

hmm this is really getting hard just realized my setup can only do 4 platforms

 

im very limited to size of my layout. width and lenght. 

 

 

well my current track now was custom built by a salesperson in tamtam back in 2012. my ask for help too. 

 

 

jeff,

 if i change the 4s to 6's it kinda change the whole track. can you check the picture. the "angle" changed. it wont hit the other end

jeff.pdf

Edited March 27, 2015 by jrcrunch

[kvp]

The short straight sections between the curves and the turnouts are still missing from the plan. They are needed so shinkansen won't derail when coming out of the canted curve and onto the turnout. This would shorten the space available for the platforms, but otherwise you will see quite a lot of derailments with close coupled shinkansen.

 

How to compute the number of cars that will fit?

number of shinkansen cars = length of platform in mm * 160 / 25000

number of 20m commuter cars = length of platform in mm * 150 / 20000

 

How to compute the required platform lengths?

length of shinkansen platform in mm = number of shinkansen cars * 25000 / 160

length of commuter platform in mm = number of 20m commuter cars * 20000 / 150

 

In your case the longest shinkansen that will fit into your 4 track station (as Cteno already wrote above) could be 5 cars.

 

So what are your options:

a ) 4 track island platform station with 5 car shinkansen

b ) 2 track side platform station with 8 car shinkansen

 

(the reason is that the turnouts and the 2 short straight sections required before the turnouts will take up around 3 cars worth of space)

Edited March 27, 2015 by kvp

[cteno4]

the #6 can work fine in your station, you have a point flipped there on the right with the wron direction point.

 

I forgot they are canted curves. With the flat curves we were able to run thru #6 points fine to the passing track at speed with them right at the curves. The canted curves throws in a new kink and I think kato is correct that you should have spacers between the curves and the points.

 

But pushing the short island platform ends all the way to where kato has them can be an issue going thru the passing siding at speed. We shortened ours by cutting off 1/2" of the platform end at the interface with the regular platform to get rid of this.

 

Jr the big question is do you want a station with 5 car trains or 8. 5 car shinkansens will look very small and is it woth it to make a station with passing sidings if it limits you to only using 5 car trains on them?

 

If not then do the straight thru station with the side platforms and just glue them and you can have 8 car trains in the station nicely.

 

I don't think you have the space to do the 4 track station unless you can add .75-1 m to the lenght of the layout if you want a useful 8 car station.

 

Jeff

[jrcrunch]

oh you're right i used the wrong piece so it wont fit

 

 

8 car shinkansen is what i want

 

well i guess for 8 car shinakensen and with the limited size of my layout. the side platforms and straight tracks is the only option since you guys are worried that they might derail due to the canted curve rail

 

with the layout i shown above.. how many island platform can i have? is it just five? my count seems only 4 platforms can fit. if it is really four then i should really consider your striaght thru track station

 

 

what is the with of the tomix platform? kato's platform is 113mm.

Edited March 27, 2015 by jrcrunch

[cteno4]

Which layout are you referring to?

 

Have you decided to just do the straight thru 2 track station with side platforms?

 

I would not mix the tomix platforms on with the kato track in this setup as the width and lengths will not match standard kato track spacing or lengths. Kato and tomix tracks have different track length and spacing standards.

 

If you are using side platforms and gluing them in place you might find a combo of tomix platforms that would fit your station length.

 

Jeff

[katoftw]

If you use Kato and decide on side platforms and make a through station for 8 cars, you will need 2356mm for length.

 

6x 248mm pieces, allows 5x 248mm platform middles and 2x 71mm ends or 4x 238 + 2x 200.

2x R414 curves

2x 25mm overhang from centre of track to viaduct walls.

[jrcrunch]

Which layout are you referring to?

 

Have you decided to just do the straight thru 2 track station with side platforms?

 

I would not mix the tomix platforms on with the kato track in this setup as the width and lengths will not match standard kato track spacing or lengths. Kato and tomix tracks have different track length and spacing standards.

 

If you are using side platforms and gluing them in place you might find a combo of tomix platforms that would fit your station length.

 

Jeff

 

i have not bought any kato viaduct tracks. but is the tomix viaduct station width wider? kato has 113 width only so we have to make a custom base so we can accomodate the side platforms

 

i think a straight thru track is what we can only do.

[jrcrunch]

Which layout are you referring to?

 

Have you decided to just do the straight thru 2 track station with side platforms?

 

I would not mix the tomix platforms on with the kato track in this setup as the width and lengths will not match standard kato track spacing or lengths. Kato and tomix tracks have different track length and spacing standards.

 

If you are using side platforms and gluing them in place you might find a combo of tomix platforms that would fit your station length.

 

Jeff

 

i have not bought any kato viaduct tracks. but is the tomix viaduct station width wider? kato has 113 width only so we have to make a custom base so we can accomodate the side platforms

 

i think a straight thru track is what we can only do.

viaduct side platform.pdf

[kvp]

 

If you are using side platforms and gluing them in place you might find a combo of tomix platforms that would fit your station length.

Kato and Tomix platforms are not interchangable. The height of the tracks are different, so the platform heights are different. The Kato and Tomix station plates and viaduct tracks are also not connectable without serious modifications.

[katoftw]

tomix does have wider plate available seperately to make a straight through station with one sided platforms.  S140-37

 

it comes as a 2 pack with the outside stairs pieces or a single pack of just the plate.

 

the S140-37 plates are made to replace the S140-55.5 plates that come with the viaduct station sets.

Edited March 28, 2015 by katoftw

[jrcrunch]

If you use Kato and decide on side platforms and make a through station for 8 cars, you will need 2356mm for length.

 

6x 248mm pieces, allows 5x 248mm platform middles and 2x 71mm ends or 4x 238 + 2x 200.

2x R414 curves

2x 25mm overhang from centre of track to viaduct walls.

 

i just plan to have 6 kato platform on each side

 

here is the breakdown

kato 23-105 (Left and right), which is already 2

kato 23-110 3 of these

kato 23-111 1 of this. 

all of these has total length of 1488mm 

 

as from kvp's suggested calculation (thank you kvp for the guide) i could fit almost 9.52 cars. i prefer if the total length of the island platform is longer than the total number of shinkansen cars. i think my cars are 1250 or 1300mm

 

anyway my track station will look like this

 

 

[katoftw]

Why would you use island platform ends on a one side platform?

 

You breakdown only comes to 1352mm of platform, not 1488mm. 4x 248mm + 2x 180mm.

 

And you realize that if you do that track plan, you need to increase the dimensions i posted by another 2x 248mm of the points at each end?  You are up to about a 10 feet width layout now.

Edited March 28, 2015 by katoftw

[kvp]

As Katoftw pointed out, you are trying to use island platform ends instead of side platform ends. The two types are different. You'll need:

-kato 23-110 : 6 (=3x2)

-kato 23-111 : 2 (=1x2)

-kato 23-112 : 2 (=1x2)

-kato 23-113 : 2 (=1x2)

 

For the two side platforms to be arranged like this:

 

(23-112) + (23-110) + (23-110) + (23-111) + (23-110) + (23-113)

====================================================

====================================================

(23-113) + (23-110) + (23-110) + (23-111) + (23-110) + (23-112)

 

This gives a length of (248 * 4) + (200 * 2) = 1392 mm

 

(1392 * 160) / 25 000 = 8.9088 of shinkansen cars (~9)

(1392 * 150) / 20 000 = 10.44 of 20 meter commuter cars (~10)

 

[jrcrunch]

Why would you use island platform ends on a one side platform?

 

You breakdown only comes to 1352mm of platform, not 1488mm. 4x 248mm + 2x 180mm.

 

And you realize that if you do that track plan, you need to increase the dimensions i posted by another 2x 248mm of the points at each end?  You are up to about a 10 feet width layout now.

 

kato 23-105 is 248mm not 180mm

http://www.newhallstation.com/store/product_info.php/products_id/181

 

but you guys right this is for island platform

 

il just use 23-112 and 21-113 as what KVP suggested. 

 

 

kvp,

 

thanks for the fixing my shopping list. this would be on top of

 

my viaduct station- which has 5 platforms at 248mm each

http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10003169

 

and an extra viaduct stores to have an extra 248mm platform

http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10003184

 

it is good to use kato 20-001 double concrete tracks for my shinkansen station? since all at 248mm? 

 

 

katoftw,

why should i increase the layout up to 10 feet width?  i plan to buy a kato v13 viaduct set so the width of my viaduct track is the same as the v13 set

 

 

 

jeff, kvp.

 

just watched this video please check 1:20. 

 

viaduct side platform.pdf

Edited March 28, 2015 by jrcrunch

[cteno4]

Jr,

 

The reason not to use the full length platforms on the ends is that they will be right against your curve and the nose of a 500 (and maybe a few other shinkansens) will hit the platform end when coming in from the curve. The shorter platform ends (23-112 113) won't have this issue. You will get about 8.5 cars on this, so will look good with an 8 car train.

 

On the video they use the s curve bump out for an island platform. This s works well, it's just you don't want it to then go directly into a viaduct curve as this double s then and with the sloped/canted viaduct curve it's just too hard to snake thru at speed and can also cause rocking and bumping into the platform ends. The station in the video goes into straight viaduct from the bump out S not a curve which yours would if you did this setup with the island platform.

 

You might look at the newer kato flag stop platforms. They have a few more details in them. They are a bit more expensive, but look nice. Basically the same lengths as the older squarer looking ones. These just look a bit more modern.

 

http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10066267

http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10066265

http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10066264

http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10066268

 

I think using the longer flag platform ends and 4 covered platforms would look better than 5 covered platforms and the short platform ends (which I think only come in the 23-121 set) as it would let you see the ends of the trains better in the station and if you use the viaduct station walls just put the low ones on the very end sections.

 

Kato was saying you had to go out to 10' wide layout if you want to have a 4 track shinkansen station that can hold a 8 car shinkansen and run it thru the passing sections at speed! To do this you need more lenght than in your original plan.

 

Nice thing about unitr and the kato station bits is you could enlarge later and move over to a larger 4 track station if you could go to a longer layout. You would need to get new island platforms thought, but no getting around that. The only way you can get the 8 car shinkansen platforms in on your sized loop is to use the outside platforms as well,

 

Cheers

 

Jeff

[jrcrunch]

hi jeff,

 

so kvp's suggestion is the best choice

 

 

hmm please check 1:55 of the video. it came from a curve i think

 

 

thank man!

Edited March 28, 2015 by jrcrunch

[cteno4]

you are right it does come from the curve into the point. but its not a point its just two curved tracks. points add another wrinkle in as the point blade can cause more issues when the flanges hit it than just having a curve. even the point frogs (the things where the tracks cross in the point) can bump around flanges and cause issues. so this is why you want to avoid a curve coming into a point if you can, just less chance things will go wrong if there is a little straight before the point to keep things as quiet as possible.

 

We did do this on the old JRM layout with a viaduct curve coming right into a #6 point and we could run at speed thru the passing siding and it worked pretty well. some trains would have issues with it though. but we also used the flat curved viaduct tracks, not the new canted curves you now get, and was not sure if that combo of canted curves and the point right after the curve would cause an issue for you as well. also we found we had to move the platform end back from the point about 1/2" (by shortening one of the platforms) as some trains coming around the curve and going onto the passing sidings at speed did bump the platform end at times and could cause derailments. On the second layout we added a 124 straight on either end of the station between the point and the curve and everything runs very well at speed on the passing siding then.

 

its moot anyway as if you use the S curves to do the island platform set up as in the video you cant get a platform long enough for 8 car shinkansen in the space you have (6x 248 sections).

 

cheers

 

jeff

[katoftw]

kato 23-105 is 248mm not 180mm

http://www.newhallstation.com/store/product_info.php/products_id/181

 

katoftw,

why should i increase the layout up to 10 feet width?  i plan to buy a kato v13 viaduct set so the width of my viaduct track is the same as the v13 set

23-105 is 248mm long, but the platform isn't.

 

---

 

the video you linked to have 4 tracks.  so you'd need points to create 4 tracks. so you 248mm of points on each end of the platforms.  you were already up to 8 feet of length, so adding the points in would add another 2 feet.

[cteno4]

23-105 has a platform of 233mm on the straight side. base with the end stair is 248mm.

 

jeff

[katoftw]

Thanks Jeff.  So it wouldn't be long enough.

 

I like your idea of using the modern platforms.  Cos that is what I'm doing also.  haha.  I haven't decided on whether I go the 4x 248mm + 180mm platform ends or 5x 248mm + 51mm platform ends.

 

They were the short and long ones I posted about earlier.  I like you suggestion of using the longer ends to allow increased view of the trains, but prefer the prototypical look of the shorter ends.  Once I get enough middle sections, I'll have to make a decission.

Edited March 28, 2015 by katoftw

[katoftw]

Nice layout.  I like what they did using extra shops and entrances under the platforms.  Wish I'd thought of that sooner.  It is so simple.

[cteno4]

yep on the first jrm layout we did this with two entrances flipped 180 on one side and extra shops. later we had entrances and shops at either end of the 16 car, 4 track station as well.

 

 got lucky and bought three viaduct station sets (as well as two double viaduct loops and extra shops and station entrances) very cheap on ebay a long time ago from a chap that had worked with kato to do a big train set up at the chicago gift show (huge trade show for xmas buying idea from distributors). Kato supplied a bunch of viaduct sets so they could set up a big 12'x12' layout and then sold a container full of sets to a bunch of retailers that normally did not stock model trains!

 

kato give the guy all the stuff used in the layout and he sold a bunch off on ebay and i was able to snap it up cheap!

 

I have not noticed the curved roof front on side shinkansen platforms, but i expect there are some like that. otherwise the structural bits and lights and the nice tile and yellow stripe are nicer looking than the old style which are a bit plain. the sticker set does have the yellow line if you want to add that in on the old ones!

 

some of the shinkansen platforms dont have roofs out to the very end, but i think most have high side walls all the way out. but the artistic license of having low wall ends does allow you to not have the trains hidden like that! i kind of like the floating platform on the flag stop end platforms, just a bit more interesting detail than the block style platforms.

 

then just make some V braces to go platform to platform like in real stations. its usually just simple H beam so some styrene stock H and paint. but not all have this.

 

JR,

 

yeah the concrete ties would probably be more prototypical as most all shinkansen track is concrete tie or slab. you can get the double track sections 20-004 (3x of this) for your span.

 

cheers,

 

jeff

[jrcrunch]

thanks for the input guys.

 

ok now to finalize my shopping list. 

 

for my viaduct station 

tracks:

kato 20-004 : 3 (2 per pack)

station

kato 23-125: 1  (viaduct station, 5 track plate/base)

kato 23-231: 1  (viaduct stores, 1 track plate/base)

island platforms (all one per box

kato 23-110 : 6 

kato 23-111 : 2 

kato 23-112 : 2 

kato 23-113 : 2

 

 

 

for my viaduct tracks: should i just buy them per piece or get the v13? i wont be using 4 of 20-401 as 2 will be discarded by my setup and i plan to used bridges on some portions,

kato 20-545 : 2 (L &R)

kato 20-544 : 3  (2 tracks each)

kato 20-401 : 2 ( 2 tracks each)

kato 20-436: 2 (bridge)

 

piers

kato 23-019= 1

kato 23-020=2

viaduct with side platform.pdf

Edited March 29, 2015 by jrcrunch

[katoftw]

depends on whom you buy it from.  if buying international, sometimes the big box sets cost more.  either way it is gonna be a big box.  viaduct stuff take up alot of space.

 

i noticed in you earlier plans you had a double ground level track also.  if you are still doing that.  start there.  and collect a few viaduct pieces each order to save on shipping costs.

 

and just a suggestion.  use the item description, not part number to describe.

Edited March 29, 2015 by katoftw