custom viaduct station

[jrcrunch]

I think you didn't give us enough data to check it. I mean a drawing with all the parts, sizes and numbers would help. I can't really figure that out from the earlier posts. (maybe due to edits or something)

 

added drawing with part number sorry im using anyrail and cant make the fonts bigger. the jpg gets resized. please see the pdf file. thanks man!!!!

[kvp]

Now i understand. So far i can only see a single problem, the S curve right after the canted viaduct curves could derail some of the shinkansen. Usually there should be a single car long straight section between the end of the curve and turnouts or S curves that lead the train around the platform. It might not be a problem for every train, but some of them (especially shinkansen with close coupling and low hanging cars) could have problems with it. Adding one straight on both sides will make the station a bit too short though. I would suggest side platforms and straight tracks, that is more reliable. Also you might have to start the side platforms at least around half car from the curves, so the trains won't catch the end of the platforms.

 

ps: Any new text should be placed in a new post, since the forum software lists new posts only. Edited posts are not visible for most people who read the forum as a message stream. (look for the 'view new content' button) If you edit an old post, almost nobody would read it. Bumping a thread without a new meaningful text causes many people to unfollow it, meaning they won't see it again regardless of new content or any new questions.

[jrcrunch]

kvp,

 

which part is the canted viaduct curve? im a newbie and not much people here who are into trains (in my place)

 

 

 

 

 

* thanks for the tips for posting here.

[jrcrunch]

Now i understand. So far i can only see a single problem, the S curve right after the canted viaduct curves could derail some of the shinkansen. Usually there should be a single car long straight section between the end of the curve and turnouts or S curves that lead the train around the platform. It might not be a problem for every train, but some of them (especially shinkansen with close coupling and low hanging cars) could have problems with it. Adding one straight on both sides will make the station a bit too short though. I would suggest side platforms and straight tracks, that is more reliable. Also you might have to start the side platforms at least around half car from the curves, so the trains won't catch the end of the platforms.

 

ps: Any new text should be placed in a new post, since the forum software lists new posts only. Edited posts are not visible for most people who read the forum as a message stream. (look for the 'view new content' button) If you edit an old post, almost nobody would read it. Bumping a thread without a new meaningful text causes many people to unfollow it, meaning they won't see it again regardless of new content or any new questions.

 

is this the problem area? would adding 20422 be enough?

 

 

 

Edited March 23, 2015 by jrcrunch

[cteno4]

Jr,

 

Yep that's it. 124 helps some but a 186 is better. The long shinkansens just hate these s curves. Unfortunately it shrinks your station some. You can easily cut the kato platforms easily with a hand razor saw. Actually it's best to pull the curved platform ends about 1/2-3/4" from where kato sets them as some shinkansens going around them on the curved side will rub a bit and can tip the cars and cause uncoupling and or derailments. It's a very hard thing to notice, took us a long time to figure this out as stopped they looked like they were just clearing ok, but while running some would bump and cause random incidents. After moving them back a little the issue went away!

 

Jeff

[cteno4]

Jr,

 

How about this. You could keep the tracks straight and use the kato side platforms. These could sit on either side of the tracks and just hang over the edge of the viaduct base plate a half inch. You could even attach (use pva glue so you can remove it later) the viaduct station walls to the outside of these. The old jrm layout had a station like this and we just made a custom wider base as it went over a lot of tracks and hard to get the viaduct supports in just the right place on the viaduct plates. You could just put a piece of chipboard or styrene (you can get a 4'x8' sheet of 020 stryene at the plastic store for less than $10) the width needed on top of the viaduct plates to better set the platforms out over the edge a bit. Even fill in the gap from the edge of the chipboard back to the viaduct plate underneith with a bit of strip wood that would stiffen the edge and hold it all in place well.

 

http://japanrailmodelers.org/photos/_station/pages/page_13.html

http://japanrailmodelers.org/photos/_station/pages/page_15.html

 

Jeff

[zartan]

Not sure if you are still considering this, but especially if you are running Shinkansen up and down a grade you should absolutely respect Kato's guidance on how long to make the grade i.e. don't push it to be steeper.  Shinkansen are very low to the ground and will catch in the center (basically they see-saw) if the grade changes too rapidly.  I pushed this on my layout to try to fit in a connection between a viaduct loop and a ground loop and unfortunately it's a pain in the ass that causes groundings and derailments all the time.  I've learned to completely respect Kato guidance on things like minimum radius and grade - you can push it and it may work most of the time, but random derailments and groundings take a lot of fun out of running trains...

[jrcrunch]

Jr,

 

How about this. You could keep the tracks straight and use the kato side platforms. These could sit on either side of the tracks and just hang over the edge of the viaduct base plate a half inch. You could even attach (use pva glue so you can remove it later) the viaduct station walls to the outside of these. The old jrm layout had a station like this and we just made a custom wider base as it went over a lot of tracks and hard to get the viaduct supports in just the right place on the viaduct plates. You could just put a piece of chipboard or styrene (you can get a 4'x8' sheet of 020 stryene at the plastic store for less than $10) the width needed on top of the viaduct plates to better set the platforms out over the edge a bit. Even fill in the gap from the edge of the chipboard back to the viaduct plate underneith with a bit of strip wood that would stiffen the edge and hold it all in place well.

 

http://japanrailmodelers.org/photos/_station/pages/page_13.html

http://japanrailmodelers.org/photos/_station/pages/page_15.html

 

Jeff

 

hi jeff.

 

how many kato side platform should i get on each side? hoping they wont look short or long for the viaduct station or fit just right

 

is this the right shopping list for the kato side platforms?

2 sets of these

http://www.katousa.com/images/unitrack/23-105.jpg

6 of these

http://www.katousa.com/images/unitrack/23-110.jpg

and 2 of these

http://www.katousa.com/images/unitrack/23-111.jpg

 

 

 

 

i have no experience with tools. this seems complicated and i have do make the support for one of the platfroms. are they sturdy? might give up the viaduct station :(

viaduct revised.pdf

Edited March 24, 2015 by jrcrunch

[katoftw]

i think you a attempting too complex things without any experience.  get some track first and enjoy running trains, then start trialing station pieces and points and find what works.

 

jeffs suggestion is good, but you do need a little bit of tool work, and you need to either make your own walls or find some spares of people.

 

i am making a similar station.  i am unable to locate spare walls.  no one wants to part with theirs.

[gerryo]

Hi to both jrcrunch and katoftw.

 

I will have plenty of extra walls when I finish my station.

 

If you could each let me know your needs, and your postal addresses, I could send them to you.

 

I should know by tonight just how many I have, as I will receive my final order of parts today.

 

I forgot to mention that they would be free, except for the postage.

 

gerryo

Canada.

Edited March 24, 2015 by gerryo

[cteno4]

Actually I was assuming you might be getting the regular kato station which would give you a 1.25m station (5 x 248 long). This gives you the station buildings under the viaduct, the viaduct walls, supports, and the plates. If you want to go to 6 plates then you have to buy the station entrance and shop viaduct section sets separately and 2 of the 2 plate extension sets and a box of supports. Then just get the kato side and end platforms to put on either side of the tracks going straight thru like you have now.

 

5 section station

 

http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/Kato-N-23125-Viaduct-Station-Kit-p/kat-23125.htm

 

6 section station

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Kato-23-231-Viaduct-Station-Shops-N-scale-/111606592937?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19fc4575a9

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Kato-23-230-Viaduct-Station-Entrance-N-scale-/111606575158?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19fc453036

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Kato-23-232-Viaduct-Platform-Extension-Set-N-scale-/141585460278?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20f726ac36

 

If you end up with a 5 section station you can center it between your curves with two 124 double viaduct pieces on either end.

 

Gluing the walls to the back of the side platforms should be simple. I'm not sure if the side platforms would need the little support I was describing. I'll put this together this week to see how it works, might be just fine with the side platforms sitting out a little from the edges. If you did need to add some support it could be done really simply with some cardboard from the craft/art shop and a couple of moulding pieces of wood from the hardware store and some glue no real tools needed except a hobby knife, and a saw if the home store won't cut your two wood pieces to length. I can walk you thru this it would be very simple, but might work with out it I'll mock it up here.

 

The ends for the straight thru would be these straight ones not the curved ends (those would be for the bump out with the center platform)

 

http://www.katousa.com/images/unitrack/23-112.jpg

http://www.katousa.com/images/unitrack/23-113.jpg

 

These are a tad short. If you are adding the viaduct walls on the back you could just use these

 

http://www.katousa.com/images/unitrack/23-106.jpg

 

The viaduct station comes with some end wall plates that would cover the outside ends of these. All the kato platforms comes with sets of seats, trash bins, signs, etc that pop into those holes going down the middle and you can mix and match a lot of these parts as you want.

 

Yeah walls are always the issue, either you need a bunch or wind up with a bunch extra! Good on ha Gerry for offering up your extras!

 

You now are just having the double viaduct loop at one level now, not trying to have a grade on it, correct? A grade in this size loop would be way too steep.

 

Cheers

 

Jeff

Edited March 24, 2015 by cteno4

[jrcrunch]

hi jeff,

 

yep i  plan to get the  viaduct set http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10003169 and viaduct stores  http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10003184 so i can make it longer

 

my problem is really is the platform base since its width is only 113mm so i have to think about your suggestion. realy looking forward on you do it.

 

 

i plan to make all side platforms 248mm. as long as the 248mm 20-004 concrete tracks. these tracks will be used on the viaduct station

[kvp]

The two short pieces of straight will be needed before the platforms, because the overhang (nose/middle) of the shinkansens would catch the end of platforms if they start right at the end of the curves. Adding the shorts on both sides get rid of this problem. I'm not sure the side walls are a must. Many elevated stations with side platforms have the railings and the basic sides only. (mostly the commuter ones, but having the railings on let's you see the trains) So imho you might only have to build the elevated bases with the station and the stores, add the center tracks and side platforms on top (with a bit of white glue) and you are ready.

Edited March 24, 2015 by kvp

[jrcrunch]

haha iam such a newbie and my track comprehension isnt that great. can you show me the parts should i buy using a track software? i use anyrail coz its free

[cteno4]

Actually don't need the short pieces before the station, the old jrm layout had the curve going into a side, straight platform and it did not catch the shinkansen noses. When I mock this up here I'll double check it again, but was fine with the old layout. The old station had both long and short straight end platforms at different times up against a double viaduct curve.

 

We did it both ways with the viaduct side walls and just using the backs of the platforms, either works. With the side platform backs it does look like a more basic commuter station. We used the low viaduct walls on the two outer ones and it let you see the ends of the trains nicely.

 

Jeff

[cteno4]

Ok i mocked this up with the plates and the platforms are only half of the platform rests on the viaduct plate when on the outside of the tracks with a single width viaduct plate for support. they wont sit their on their own this way. you will need to either put a piece of chipboard or styrene on top of the kato viaduct plates to set the station platforms on each side hanging out or glue the platforms to the plates. like kvp said just a bit of white glue would do it to glue the platforms down on to the plates and then you can even glue the viaduct walls to the outside of the platforms then if you want. with white glue it would hold well enough but come apart if you needed to by pulling hard or using a little water to soak the glue loose if needed later. 

 

i checked the clearances on the platform ends with the noses of shinkansens and they all clear a platform going out to the end of the station and a curve coming right into that EXCEPT the boxy nosed 700 and n700! all the rest just clear. So i went back to our custom station base we used and discovered we had made it with the room for the platforms to be 3mm back from the track base edges for just this reason of the 700. i went back thru some very old emails and found where we later went to the shorter end platforms so that folks would not have to remember not to put those platforms right up against the edge of the track base and have a nose of a 700 clip it!

 

so if you do a 5 plate station you are fine as you can use the 124mm straight viaduct pieces on either side of the station to get around this problem (a spacer between the curve and station). a 5 plate station with platforms out to the end gets you 1240mm of platform, so will hold a full 7 car shinkansen (1140mm) or a 8 car shinkansen (1300mm) with a bit of the nose of each poking out the end of the station.

 

If you want a 6 plate station (this would go all the way across the straight run curve to curve) either you need to back off the platforms from the track a few mm (and have a bigger gap between train and platform when in the station) or use the shorter end platforms and not have the platform go to the very end of the station. the platform length for the 6 plate station with the shorter end platforms is 1352mm so will hold a full 8 car shinkansen even though the platform does not go totally to the end of the station base. I would just use the shorter end platforms and keep the platform close to the train. some stations have bits at the ends where the platform does not extend into.

 

here is the picture of how the end would look with the shorter end platforms. this is using a custom made station base, not the kato plates and its made wide enough to have the two thru tracks and the two platforms and a few mm extra on each track/platform interface.

 

http://japanrailmodelers.org/photos/_station/pages/page_12.html

 

here is how it looks if you have the station walls on the outside of the side platforms.

 

http://japanrailmodelers.org/photos/_station/pages/page_13.html

 

take a look at this and see want to do and let me know i can draw up the exact parts list. yell if you have questions.

 

if you want i can pop this all together and take some picts to show you what it would look like, ive got all the parts laying around.

 

btw the kato viaduct station and track loop are the first pieces i got many years ago lightly used on ebay that i started doing my japanese n scale with!

 

cheers

 

jeff

[jrcrunch]

wow thanks for the explanation jeff. will really think about this. 

[jrcrunch]

wow thanks for the explanation jeff. will really think about this. 

 

jeff,

 

im no expert with tools so than to build from scratch maybe just do a 4 track/line viaduct station?

 

can you check this? 

 

measured the shinkansen. they are 160mm each so 1280mm long,  5 platform is kinda short. il still go with 6, with total length of 1488mm

 

how long is kato 20-160 track? is it 120.25mm each?

 

going back to viaduct station. do i only need to buy extra 23-232? like  another 6 of them? since my original has 5 from the viaduct train set and 1 extension.

http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10003185

 

what will support the 3rd and 4th tracks or the one above the additional 6 extension 23-232?  23-018 pier cast would be fine right?

 

thank you so much for your time. really appreciate it

 

 

*pls ignore the missing tracks. im just using anyrail free version with max of 50 tracks

viaduct extra platform.pdf

Edited March 26, 2015 by jrcrunch

[kvp]

You will still have the canted curve / S curve problem with the turnouts, so i suggest you to move the turnouts back from the curves at least by a straight viaduct track. This would give you a much shorter station (shorter by the two vidaucts and two turnouts), but otherwise many shinkansen would just derail on the turnouts.

 

On the other hand, getting the straight plates and the normal side platforms and gluing the side platforms on top of the plates doesn't seem like a big scrachbuilding task. (you can even use thin double sided tape) If you get the straight platform ends with the stairs then the required turning space will be available and you could still fit the longer trains into the station. You will win around 2.5 cars length compared to a reliably functioning 4 track station, but of course then your station will only have 2 tracks.

[jrcrunch]

You will still have the canted curve / S curve problem with the turnouts, so i suggest you to move the turnouts back from the curves at least by a straight viaduct track. This would give you a much shorter station (shorter by the two vidaucts and two turnouts), but otherwise many shinkansen would just derail on the turnouts.

 

On the other hand, getting the straight plates and the normal side platforms and gluing the side platforms on top of the plates doesn't seem like a big scrachbuilding task. (you can even use thin double sided tape) If you get the straight platform ends with the stairs then the required turning space will be available and you could still fit the longer trains into the station. You will win around 2.5 cars length compared to a reliably functioning 4 track station, but of course then your station will only have 2 tracks.

 

do you think the shinkansen will fall off even at slow speeds? i only plan to run them the shinkasens in high speeds when they are on the middle tracks.  i will use the most left/right or 1st and 4th tracks as some kind of garage

[cteno4]

jr,

 

yep you can do this double wide station easily with no tools! the kato viaduct plates will snap together on the sides with S joiners to make them as wide as you want to get it! one of our club members has one 6 tracks wide!

 

yes you can use either support to hold up the extra areas of the station base. the larger frame supports 23-020 work well. the other Y piers are usually where you want a lot of space below the viaduct for some reason like under a bridge.

 

To do the double you would need either 

 

1x 23.125  full viaduct station (4 plates, walls and station entrance and shops and supports) http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/image/10003169z12/70/12

4x 23-323 extension sets 

and some supports

 

or 

 

1x 23-230 station entrance (entrance, walls and one plate)

1x 23-231 stores (stores walls and one plate) 

5x 23-323 extension sets

and some more supports

 

both give you about the same thing, but depending on who you source from to canada you might get different deals.

 

you have grown the length of the oval by 248 in this most recent plan. if you can go any wider you could add in a 124 (186 would be better) on either end of the station to get rid of the S curve and also lengthen the station some to get full 8 car trains on all tracks. the 124 on either end of the station you can then run the trains thru the passing siding at speed and have 4 trains on all tracks to choose from w/o removing a train all the time.

 

for the passing tracks they show using the #4 points in their diagram

 

http://www.1999.co.jp/itbig00/10003169z10.jpg

 

#4s can be cranky, especially with shinkansens. I would suggest using the #6 points and use the R716 and 1 62 to go around the platform and use the #3 and #4 platform ends to go with the 718r curves.

 

putting in the points for the other tracks will shorten the platform length as well. you might not quite get an 8 car shinkansen on both straight and siding (due to the ends coming together at the point). shinkansen end cars are usually also a tad longer closer to 17cm than the center cars due to the noses.

 

kvp is correct you can only go into these passing sidings slowly and even with the #6 points (#4 would really be trouble here) you may have some derailments due the S curve. having a 4 track station like this is good if you can keep trains on it and then run one on the siding side or one on the straight thru so you have 4 trains and just choose which. if you dont run trains fast thur the sidings then you cant really use it as a storage track unless you physically take the train on the straight thru off. 

 

you can get around this by adding the straights on either end but again you will shorten the station to even shorter or you need to widen the loop more! this is the spiral you get into once you get into having bigger shinkansen stations! A long time back i was into doing a huge shinkansen station for my home layout planning. i wanted 8 tracks and 16 car shinkansens, ended up with a 12' long station! only way to fit it and curves into my room for the layout was to make into a big Z with the station in the center part of the z and loop backs on either end folded over!

 

doing the simple station with the side platforms is not a scratch building project at all. you can do it just by gluing the side platforms to the base plates and the side walls to the backs of the platforms. using white glue this should hold well enough (might pop loose if you pull plates/platforms apart but easily re-glued) and you can always get the white glue off by soaking in water later. the use of a piece of chip board was just a way to do it w/o gluing the platforms, but gluing is very simple and reversible and no tools required! if you did the 6 plate single wide station you would easily fit an 8 car shinkansen on the platforms even if you used the shorter stub platform ends.

 

do you currently have any of the double viaduct track?

 

jeff

[jrcrunch]

sorry what is #4 points and #6?? im confused, i just know the track parts. what should i get and discard? thank you!

 

i have no double viaduct track yet.

 

im going to japan next week :) im not from canada but from philippines.

[cteno4]

jrcrunch,

 

ahh sorry i thought there was something with you talking about purchasing unitrak in canada! 

 

so are you planning on bringing back track with you? these double viaduct sets are not tiny. boxes are packed tightly but a loop and the station would fill a middle sized suite case in packages a smaller one maybe if packed tightly wo packaging.

 

sorry i never use the part numbers as im mid level dyslexic and remembering the difference between them is impossible for me so i use the measurements instead until i have to order and even then i end up doing it by the measurement!

 

There are two sized of points, #4s and #6s. the #4 (20-220 and 20-221) are the shorter points (124mm long) that use a tighter radius curve (r481). the problem is the blades in the point are at a sharper angle to the track when switched and also a bit shorter (due to the harder curve in them) and what happens is some train the wheel flange (the part that sticks down into the track side) will hit the end of the blade and instead of going off on the turnout along the blade the wheel flange slips behind it and goes straight. this is called picking the point and it ends up with one or more wheels going off on the wrong track and derailing the train on the point.

 

the #4 are much more prone to doing this than the longer (186mm) and shallower radius (r718) of the #6 points (20-202 and 20-203). problem is they are longer and take more room to use. the #4s are short and allow more space on a passing siding or a shorter yard ladder of points and thus less room needed for the yard area.

 

#4s give you the r481 track and s60 and 64 to make a siding in the package (thats why they are a little more expensive) and the little wire to electrically fire the point has a little plug so you can pull wire off the bottom of the point if you want. The #6s come as just the point and you have to buy the r718 and any short straights to make the desired spacing siding and the wire is attached to the bottom of the point internally, you cant unplug it from the point.

 

You can do some filling to make little pockets in the rail for the blade ends to nestle into to "tune" the #4s but this is some careful fiddling -- not horrible but something that can take some time and practice to do. Our club has just stopped using #4s most everywhere especially none with the shinkansens as the longer cars and tighter car to car connections seem more susceptible to picking #4 points. Some folks exist with them pretty well, but many gripe about them. 

 

more info here

 

http://www.katousa.com/cgi-bin/dl/dl.pl?dl.mif,Ntrack.pdf

 

can you go out wider or how wide can the loop go?

 

you might think about starting with just the 2 track, 6 plate station idea and just glue on the side platforms to the plates. once you are going and you decide you want to expand you could think about growing the length of the layout and adding more plates to make the 4 track station.

 

Even with the 7 plate long station you showed above you are only going to get a 7 car shinkansen in the station and you cant run thru the passing loop at speed. the only way to get an 8 car shinkansen and 4 tracks where you can always use them (ie run on the outside passing tracks in a way that does not create an S curve) would be to add 0.75m onto the length of your original layout. you could do a 6 plate, two track straight thru station in your original layout width that would hold an 8 car shinkansen. anything in between will mean shorter trains to fit in the station and potential issues with shorter points or S curves.

 

cheers

 

jeff

[katoftw]

for a 8 car shinkensen, you'll need 5x 248 platform lengths and 2 short platform ends, or 4x 248 platform lengths and 2x long platform ends.

 

the lastest plan you provided only has 2x 248 platform lengths and 2x long platform ends.

[cteno4]

no, for an 8 car shinkansens you only need 4x248 platforms plus the two short ends (short ones get you about 17cm or so of platform). this gives you around 1350mm and 8 car is about 1300mm. using the longer platforms and #4s gives you a bit more platform.

 

http://www.katousa.com/images/unitrack/20-806.jpg

 

but in any case more length is needed to get an 8 car shinkansen station into the old layout loop size. two more 248 sections would need to be added to the station to get it long enough for the 4x 248 platforms and the shorter #2 and 3 ends with #6 points so it can be run thru reliably with speed. and then the two 124 double viaduct track section on the outside of station before the curves to kill the S curve. we actually use to have good luck running full speed thru the sidings with #6 right after the viaduct curve. This is one of the places though we found that the platform ends at kato positioning would sometimes have some shinkansens come around and onto the passing track at speed and bump the platform ends and cause a derailment. we fixed this by shortening an internal platform about 1" and moving the island ends back about 1/2" on both sides and this worked well. on the layout 2.0 we put 124s in and its fine running on the passing sidings at prototypical speeds (ie not the 400mph you can run shinkansens at!)

 

big question jr is can you go wider with the layout? if not then doing the 4 track station that you can run trains thru at speed will only get you platform lengths of about 880mm -- only big enough for about 5.5 cars...  

 

cheers

 

jeff