Mixed class compatibility for MU formations of locomotives?

[NGT6 1315]

Morning all,

 

I can't say I know a lot about multiple working control systems used on Japanese locomotives, but I did read that it is, for example, possible to couple DD51s and DE10s in mixed MU formations. But, how about other classes, such as, for example, an EF64-0 with an EF64-1000?

 

Cheers,

Dom

[katoftw]

but I did read that it is, for example, possible to couple DD51s and DE10s in mixed MU formations.

If the second loco is a smaller loco, then generally it will only be a helper loco added to the back for steep grades and/or snowy areas during winter.

 

If the locos were running together for the whole trip, then they most likely will be of the same type/power.

[HantuBlauLOL]

I've seen EF81-DE10-freight cars.. I forgot where did I placed the photo, sorry.. It's on an electrified line

[marknewton]

how about other classes, such as, for example, an EF64-0 with an EF64-1000?

 

Dom, they should be able to, as both sub-classes are equipped for MU working. But it's worth noting that not all JNR diesel or electric locos were capable of running in MU. Look closely at the area around the couplers. If there's only one hose - the brakepipe - and no receptacles for the MU jumper cable, then the loco isn't MU equipped. Examples include DD16s and EF60s.

 

 

 

For comparison, this later series DD16 is MU equipped:

 

Cheers,

 

Mark.

[Nick_Burman]

I've seen EF81-DE10-freight cars.. I forgot where did I placed the photo, sorry.. It's on an electrified line

 

The DE10 must have been dead in tow.

 

Cheers NB

[kvp]

This topic brings up back to the relativly unknown topic of japanese MU standards. I would really like to find a real japanese train fan, who has more information about japanese locomotive and multiple unit control standards. Sadly i don't speak (or write) the language good enough to post on one of the japanese language forums. Currently most public information in this topic is available from the US standards, closely follwed by the UK and German (european) standards.

[westfalen]

The Japanese Wikipedia entry for the DE10 (translated by Google) say the following about the DE10's MU capabilities.
 

Tandem overall control has the equipment, all models of the general specifications ^[4] Double-heading is possible. DD51 also shape it can be Double-heading by overall control, but the maximum speed is limited to 75km / h.

 

The way I read it all DE10's had MU fitted and could run with DD51's but the consist was restricted to the maximum speed of the smaller loco.

[Sacto1985]

The only Japanese electric locomotives that ran in pairs in MU fashion for helper service was the EF63's assigned to Usui Pass when that was open, I believe. 

 

By the way, when they attach the helper locomotive on the rear of a freight train for climbing the Senohachi grade (e.g., EF67 or EF210-300), is the control of the engine output done from the lead locomotive in MU fashion?

[marknewton]

The way I read it all DE10's had MU fitted and could run with DD51's but the consist was restricted to the maximum speed of the smaller loco.

 

That makes sense - the DE10s are geared for a lower maximum speed than the DD51s.

 

Cheers,

 

Mark.

Edited January 17, 2015 by marknewton

[marknewton]

By the way, when they attach the helper locomotive on the rear of a freight train for climbing the Senohachi grade (e.g., EF67 or EF210-300), is the control of the engine output done from the lead locomotive in MU fashion?

 

No. The helper loco is being driven independently by it's own crew. However, the crew on the leading loco have control of the train/automatic brakes. The helper loco's brake stand is cut out, so it simply behaves as another vehicle in the train when braking.

 

Cheers,

 

Mark.

[kvp]

These setups need a power cutout device installed into the helper locomotive, so it stops applying power when the brakes are applied. This way only the required power level has to be communicated from the leading locomotive and switching between powered and braking states is automatic.

 

ps: I still can't find much info about the various modern japanese MU standards.

[marknewton]

The helper locos on the Senohachi already have a "power cutout device" installed. It's called a driver.

 

Mark.

[kvp]

That's not really safe. In case of an emergency brake application, the rear drivers would have to disengage the power fast enough to avoid a derailment. Also not safe on passenger trains, where a passenger initiated emergency brake application would be ineffective without the driver removing the power from the motors. Not to mention a break in the main brake line. So it's kind of a requirement, that in case of a brake pipe pressure drop, locomotives must stop applying power to the wheels. This prevents derailing the train or burning the brakes. It was even in use on some steam locomotives around the world used for double heading and pusher service.

Edited January 17, 2015 by kvp

[miyakoji]

Doesn't an emergency brake application stop power to the traction motors?  I imagine anything that opens the brake air to the atmosphere stopping everything.  The little red button on the dashboard...

 

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:One_Touch_Emergency_Device.jpg

[katoftw]

Doesn't an emergency brake application stop power to the traction motors?  I imagine anything that opens the brake air to the atmosphere stopping everything.  The little red button on the dashboard...

 

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:One_Touch_Emergency_Device.jpg

Yes.  You de-air a train, the brakes will automaticly apply.

[kvp]

An emergency brake application will vent the air from the brake pipes, activate the repeater valves (if any) on every car and should cut the power from the motors on all locomotives in the train. If a locomotive is equipped with a dynamic brake, then it can be activated too. A gradual brake application should also cut the power. This feature was not supported by every locomotive, especially older ones. I assume that in Japan they did install the required automatic cutout in most modern locomotives. In this case, the pusher driver is not required to switch between power and brake application.

 

ps: Some older locomotives have a single air pipe, that's for freight train mode, when the charge air is going through the brake pipes, so you have to fully release the brakes if you want to decrease the brake force. In passenger train mode (used by modern freights), you have two pipes, one is the main brake line and one is the charge line connected to the locomotive air reservoir. This can be used to partially release the brakes, since they can take full pressure air anytime from the charge pipe. Many modern trains use electrically controlled brakes, meaning the brake command is sent through the MU cable and the brake valves are operating at the same time on the whole train. This allows uniform brake application and a smoother deceleration. The Japanese EF64-s in the linked Japanese wikipedia page seem to have everything (possibly including a kitchen sink). The Usui pushers were even equipped to MU with electric multiple units, so they could be driven from the emu cab. This arrangement would allow a locomotive to be used in push-pull service with a cab car on one end and even with the locomotive in the middle of the train. (like in case of double railjets)

[marknewton]

That's not really safe.

 

Yes, it is. How many incidents are you aware of that have occured on the Senohachi grade?

 

In case of an emergency brake application, the rear drivers would have to disengage the power fast enough to avoid a derailment.

 

Is there a reason that you think they can't? And what incidents can you cite where the pusher locos have caused a derailment in those circumstances?

 

Also not safe on passenger trains, where a passenger initiated emergency brake application would be ineffective without the driver removing the power from the motors. 

 

The passenger emergency valve on Japanese loco-hauled passenger cars doesn't make a brake application by itself. It's an alarm which alerts the crew.

 

So it's kind of a requirement, that in case of a brake pipe pressure drop, locomotives must stop applying power to the wheels.

 

That's why pneumatic control switches and pneumatic control governors were developed many years ago.

 

It was even in use on some steam locomotives around the world used for double heading and pusher service.

 

Irrelevant, as the OP was asking about electric locos in pusher service in Japan. But I'd be interested in any reliable sources you can mention that support that claim.

 

Mark.

[kvp]

 

But I'd be interested in any reliable sources you can mention that support that claim.

I was asking for more information on the particular setup you mentioned. But i'm rather sure most modern japanese locomotives have a safety valve that cuts power from the traction motors in case of a break in the main brake pipe. If not and the driver is responsible for doing it by hand, then that would be rather unsafe as the rolling stock and locomotive brakes would engage automatically and immediately. (the lack of an accident doesn't always mean something is failsafe, they could be simply lucky) So you could be right, but a setup like that doesn't seem logical.

 

On the other hand, i'm sure that on the Usui pass, the electric locomotives used there were 100% MU controllable from the head of the train and locomotive crews were required only for safety and any solo return trips.

[bikkuri bahn]

You more likely will not find specific info about Japanese MU operations/standards on the net populated by picture collections, it's an esoteric subject more appropriate to engineering journals and operating rulebooks.  That said, you will find info in books.  I have a Neko Publishing book on the Usui Pass operations, the EF 63 locomotives were hooked up to the EMU units (189 series, 489 series, 169 series) via the KE70 jumper, a 100v connection that enabled control (throttle applications "rikkou" and holding brake "yokusoku") from the pusher locomotives of the complete train.  Once connected, the driver in the kuha driving cab unit on the EMU would flick a switch which transferred control to the EF63 driver.  The driver in the EMU maintained radio communication with the pusher locomotive. You can see the white antennas used for that mounted on the front ends of the EF's. Any motor or brake failures in any portion of the train were communicated via the KE70 line, with appropriate warning lights in the EF63 cab, as well as the response automatic brake application (which was gradual brake application, not emergency).

[marknewton]

bb, I've just bought a copy of that very same book, I'm even more keen to get it now. :)

 

One of the things I'd like to know more about is the type of brake equipment fitted to those locos and EMUs. The one time I got a look in the cab of a 489 series car the brake controller appeared to be a Japanese version of the Westcode EP brake stand that my EMUs have. The KE70 jumper appears to be almost identical to those fitted to our older cars, which would make sense. They have a 100v system as part of the traction package, which was made by Mitsubishi.

 

All the best,

 

Mark.

[marknewton]

But i'm rather sure most modern japanese locomotives have a safety valve that cuts power from the traction motors in case of a break in the main brake pipe

I don't know what it's called in Japanese, but it's known in English as a pneumatic control governor. If the brake pipe pressure drops below a predetermined amount it will cut the power.

 

If not and the driver is responsible for doing it by hand, then that would be rather unsafe as the rolling stock and locomotive brakes would engage automatically and immediately.

The driver has a brake pipe gauge as well as a flow meter. Any sudden loss of brake pipe pressure is immediately communicated to the crew so that they can respond appropriately. I realise that your bias towards automation makes you think that the human element is superfluous, but from personal experience - which you lack - I can tell you it isn't.

 

So you could be right, but a setup like that doesn't seem logical.

I am right. I've had a good look at both an EF61-200 and an EF67 on banking duties courtesy of their respective crews. Both locos were equipped in a way that was very familiar to me. The driver and inspector on the EF67 both joked that whey could qualify me for the road in a day or two, as I was already good for the traction.

 

Mark.

[miyakoji]

The driver and inspector on the EF67 both joked that whey could qualify me for the road in a day or two, as I was already good for the traction.

 

Mark.

Looking forward to the pictures

[miyakoji]

BTW Mark, you should get some business cards made up for when you meet train crews in other countries. I bet they'd go over especially well in Japan :)

[kvp]

 

I have a Neko Publishing book on the Usui Pass operations, the EF 63 locomotives were hooked up to the EMU units (189 series, 489 series, 169 series) via the KE70 jumper, a 100v connection that enabled control (throttle applications "rikkou" and holding brake "yokusoku") from the pusher locomotives of the complete train.

 

Thanks! It's rather hard to find the appropriate japanese books and read them without being able to translate japanese without computer help. I would really like to find more information on the KE70 MU connectors you mention. (the oldest such document i've found so far about MU controls is a Sprague MU circuit diagram from the New York city libray's online archives) Is this book available online in an ocr-ed form (or in english)? So far i've only found that this cable was used on the following trains: 103,113,169,189,201 and 485 and by some private companies.

 

Also i would like to know what was the reason behind driving from the pusher locomotives instead of the front cab with a working MU connection?

 

 

I am right. 

Except you said the locomotives didn't have an automatic power cutoff (pneumatic control governor) and relied on the drivers to do it after a warning. It turns out they are safer than that. As bikkuri bahn pointed it out, the warning is for the driver, but the brakes are applied automatically.

[miyakoji]

So far i've only found that this cable was used on the following trains: 103,113,169,189,201 and 485 and by some private companies.

You've got a huge portion of the JNR-era fleet there, maybe that was basically the only cable.