How to realistically mix local and shinkansen on a 4' x 8' layout?

[spacecadet]

I have a 4' x 8' N scale layout - two sheets of plywood to make a table. I'm using Kato Unitrack. I run local and shinkansen trains but I want to keep things basically realistic, which means dedicated tracks for each, and as much concrete as I can use for the shinkansen. Currently I pretty much have two separate double-track ovals, one of which is a viaduct (the V13 set). The local lines also have a single train station and a yard on opposite sides of the oval. My AnyRail plan is attached (in jpg form).

 

I'm in the process of trying to figure out some additions both for my own enjoyment and to add some functionality. What I'm trying to do is first, get the shinkansen lines down to run ground level parallel to the local lines at the station, and second, get some switches set up so that any train *can* switch to any track, shinkansen or local. (I realize this is not realistic but it would make my yard really functional, and also let me run my cleaning car all the way around without rerailing it). With the way the piers block whatever's underneath the viaduct, it seems like all I can really do with the shinkansen is have a bigger loop outside of my local lines that just goes up on one side and down on the other. But that's really boring. Anyone have any other ideas?

 

I also plan to take one of my local tracks and have it run in another raised inner loop. I guess that further constricts what I can do with the shinkansen. I'm not sure if there's even physically a way to get my shinkansen to do anything inside my local tracks, unless I give up on the shared station idea.

 

Just looking for any ideas building off what I have that are more creative than having a giant outer loop and a smaller inner loop. I've obviously lost too many brain cells over the years to come up with anything better.

 

Edited January 4, 2015 by spacecadet

[railsquid]

With the way the piers block whatever's underneath the viaduct

 

Probably not very helpful for you, but the Tomix viaduct piers actually have enough space for a single line underneath (the Tomix elevated track is way more flexible IMHO).

 

Personally, having about the same area available (albeit in L-shape) I've given up on trying to squeeze in "realistic" operations because there's not really the space to do anything beyond simple ovals, which leave little room for interesting stuff (sidings, scenery etc.).

[kvp]

I would add that Tomix also makes cross bars, that allow the piers to be placed at odd angles and outside the viaduct. This allows a viaduct to be run over a yard or a whole station. For Kato, this can be copied by making the piers and cross bars by hand from wood, metal or plastic.

 

For a two loops, two levels layout, here is an example with a shinkansen station, a suburban station, a suburban stop and two yards:

The messy part on the left is hidden by a mountain, so it's less obvious that it's just two double track loops. Also the elevated station is placed at the back, so it doesn't block the view. The only tricky part are the elevated tracks above the suburban station, but the piers actually fall between the tracks so the elevated tracks can provide the roof of the 2nd platform. Piers can be placed on the two sides of the suburban tracks or as part of the suburban platform's (roof) structure. It's cramped, but contains two types of typical japanese suburban stations, a typical smaller shinkansen station and two smaller yards that can be accessed easily.

 

[JR 500系]

I like the way how kvp always design the track layouts! Neat one there!

[NJHA]

I am also with squid on the "realistic" part. For it to be realistic you will need 2 things: space and money. Usually you lack one or both.

 

One thing i have learnt from this forum is that the layout is your "baby". You got to love it, be comfortable with it and happy with what you have accomplished, and must not, should not, ever try to mimic others (layout plans tend to converge to "unified" plans anyway) . 

Whenever i try/worry with the "realism" part on my layout i become stressed, grumpy because i simply don't have the space or the money to make it real so it frustrates me. So, because this is a hobby and it is supposed to be fun, I decided to let go. I don't really care if my shinkansens will travel at high speed at street level, or if train A is from a different region from train B or even if my station is handmade or bought. 

All i care on my layout is just having fun, and being able to disconnect from "real life" worries for a while. After all it is my layout, i do as I please with it, and i am not going to expositions with it so there is no need for me to worry with "technicalities". Maybe in a few years i will evolve to a more orientated layout but for now i am happy with what i have.

 

Bottom line: All that matters is the fun you get. Do as it pleases you the most.

Edited January 5, 2015 by NJHA

[JR 500系]

Nicely spoken JNHA!

 

I really have to agree with you there! Many a times i'm at that stage whereby I know not what to do with my layout due to this and that. I think the rationale of letting go and doing what you like is really true to having true fun in this hobby. Especially true is not comparing your own layout with others as like you mentioned, no two kids are exactly the same nor stronger than the other.

 

Keeping that in mind I guess it's really time to nourish my 'baby'... I've been a really bad daddy...

[Ewan.in.gz]

Yes, I agree with JNHA & JR500! It's our hobby & layouts, so we can and should do whatever we find enjoyable. At one end of the extreme are the rivet counters, and at the other end are the people who like to run Thomas one way and the latest Shinkansen the other!

 

As far as realistically mixing Shinkansen and conventional and or local JR trains, you could always base your layout on the Mini-Shinkansen concept! I probably shpuld have gone down that route, but I got hooked on Tokyo's massive rail network..... More cool electric trains for me!  

[spacecadet]

Thanks for all the replies so far. I didn't mean to harp too much on realism - I do want it to be as realistic as it can be, but I meant that within the constraints of doing the other things I want to do (like connecting the shinkansen and local tracks - the only shinkansen trains I have right now are both Tokaido line trains so I know this isn't realistic at all).

 

Honestly kvp's layout plan does kind of look like what I'm going for. I think I probably will end up just doing a big outer loop for the shinkansen, bring the tracks down to ground level by my existing station (creating a four track station), then give them a viaduct station on the other side. I'll do twistier stuff with my suburban tracks.

 

I'll post an update once I come up with a plan that looks workable. Hopefully can post some pics too once I get a little more done.

[katoftw]

It is a bit freaky but for the last 2 days I have been mucking about with plans for a 2400x1200 4"x8" layout.  I have basicly put my T-Trak stuff on hold as it is taking just too long to get enough modules made up and ready to run.  So I have still been using the floor, which is unpack track, unpack trains, setup track, play, pull apart track, pack up trains, pack up tracks.

 

If I had a layout ready to go, then it just be unpack trains, play, pack up trains.  Be much better and more fun in the quicker process.  Currently I hardly play with my trains due to the lengthy unpacking and repacking process.

 

So I can to the conclusion to make a near flat 4"x8" layout that will go in the second garage space that is currently used for storage.  Not items are more than 70cm high.  See pic.  So easy enough to have the layout there, and the sotred stuff located underneth the layout.  A tape measure is on the floor.  This tape is 1200mm out from the wall, and extended out 2400mm.

 

 

I have have been playing around with ideas on anyrail also.  I want similar things in my layout as out.  I'm chasing.  Shinkansen oval.  Commuter oval.  Communter yard.  Freight yard.  Not too fussed on the Shinkansen yard as I only have a few Shinkansen.

 

My biggest issue is that I'm trying to make platforms long enough to fit 8 cars.  So about 1300 of straight track is required before any curves go in.  So by the time 6x S248 go in and the R381/414 viaducts to in.  It has already almost reached the short sides  Missing by about 50mm combined from both ends.

 

I have also had a little play with Tomix track to see if I can achieve my goals also.  Tomix track does have alot more versatility with their pieces, and allows a bit more freedom making the ovals not so oval.  And the 140-37 Viaduct Station piece allows 2 tracks and 2 one sided platforms to be used.

 

Both Tomix and Katos have their pros and cons.  Tomix's stations never look as good as Kato's, but Tomix's track versatility wins hands down compared to Kato's.  Compromise, compromise. GRRR!!!

Edited January 5, 2015 by katoftw

[cteno4]

kato,

 

it is all a compromise! but you can usually find what you need. using the track layout programs will let you get your first pass ideas thought out some, but i would strongly encourage you to not go to the nailed down layout unless you have done a lot of track planning to layout building in the past. use the layout program to get ideas together and maybe help you decide which track works better for you. once you have that then get the basic track and set it up on the bench and play with it and you may find some other ideas come to mind that you dont see in the layout programs or things you really dont like.

 

for this sized layout you can do pretty equivalent things in finetrack and unitrak but finetrack does give you more options over all. unitrak puts up with a bit more abuse if you do a lot of clipping and unclipping. 

 

stations you can always later redo walls and such yourself to make it into more of what you want, so i would not recommend basing your track decision on that, base that decision on the look of the track and if it fits your needs for the parts.

 

in 4x8 you do end up with loops usually. in the space you have can you stretch out just a bit more in length? might give you the room to get your 8 car stations as well as bend the loops some to make it feel a little less like ovals. 

 

are you big on doing woodwork/construction? if not might look at simple, cheap table options you could set up and put a surface on like 1" foam board or later a wooden layout framework. just having the table space lets you start setting track up and playing around with ideas w/o getting into construction right away and that might help you see the longer term fun you want that gets interrupted by trying to do short runs on the floor! ikea has some pretty cheap tables. you buy a top the size you want and the cheap legs are like $4 or less that even have a screw foot on each for leveling. or cheap folding leg tables.

 

ttrak tends to be fun if you have a group you can run with. at home it sets you into a very fixed layout w/ few options unless you have a lot of space. they are fun i that you can work on a scene at a time easily in your lap! moving up to the layout can be daunting at some points for many and they get stalled. so this is why i say try playing some for a longer period of time to see what you really want and need from a larger layout before you dive in totally.

 

think of passing tracks in the shinkansen station to use as storage tracks for 2 more shinkansens for not that much more room.

 

cheers

 

jeff

[katoftw]

Thanks Jeff.  I'll pick apart you post a bit.

kato,

 

it is all a compromise! but you can usually find what you need. using the track layout programs will let you get your first pass ideas thought out some, but i would strongly encourage you to not go to the nailed down layout unless you have done a lot of track planning to layout building in the past. use the layout program to get ideas together and maybe help you decide which track works better for you. once you have that then get the basic track and set it up on the bench and play with it and you may find some other ideas come to mind that you dont see in the layout programs or things you really dont like. you are thinking the same as me.  while it was a permanent layout out.  nothing was gonna be glued down any time soon.  due to not having all the track required, and i did wanna play around with ideas also.  have been track planning for over 12 months now.  i know what can and cannt be done.  but by no means am i an expert.  i just want to have a rough but solid idea of what i wanna achieve.  and nothing will see glue for 6-12 months.  having the rough but solid idea means i dont make the base too small or too big, and dont overbuy things i wont use.

 

for this sized layout you can do pretty equivalent things in finetrack and unitrak but finetrack does give you more options over all. unitrak puts up with a bit more abuse if you do a lot of clipping and unclipping. 

 

stations you can always later redo walls and such yourself to make it into more of what you want, so i would not recommend basing your track decision on that, base that decision on the look of the track and if it fits your needs for the parts.

 

in 4x8 you do end up with loops usually. in the space you have can you stretch out just a bit more in length? might give you the room to get your 8 car stations as well as bend the loops some to make it feel a little less like ovals. yes i can go a bit longer.  i actually have another 1200x1200 space next to this that could be used.  was thinking maybe later when i have the first 2400x1200 completed, then moving onto the extension.  but maybe just go 4"x10" and be done with it.

 

are you big on doing woodwork/construction? if not might look at simple, cheap table options you could set up and put a surface on like 1" foam board or later a wooden layout framework. just having the table space lets you start setting track up and playing around with ideas w/o getting into construction right away and that might help you see the longer term fun you want that gets interrupted by trying to do short runs on the floor! ikea has some pretty cheap tables. you buy a top the size you want and the cheap legs are like $4 or less that even have a screw foot on each for leveling. or cheap folding leg tables. while i'm okay with woodwork.  it is another dicission to move away from t-trak for now.  each module is a base, so you are making multiple modules with multiple cutting/glueing/nailing etc.

 

the quick option is making a frame with ply on top, some removable legs, and all the cutting/glueing/nailing can be done in 1 afternoon.

 

ttrak tends to be fun if you have a group you can run with. at home it sets you into a very fixed layout w/ few options unless you have a lot of space. they are fun i that you can work on a scene at a time easily in your lap! moving up to the layout can be daunting at some points for many and they get stalled. so this is why i say try playing some for a longer period of time to see what you really want and need from a larger layout before you dive in totally. t-trak w/few options is like reading my mind.  other than 2 ovals, there isn't much you can do other than yards inside the inner oval.

 

think of passing tracks in the shinkansen station to use as storage tracks for 2 more shinkansens for not that much more room.  true.  i'd prefer the passing loops on the shinkansen line.  but compromise due to layout length was to delete them.  but if length of the layout in increased, then they will be back in.

 

cheers

 

jeff

Edited January 5, 2015 by katoftw

[zartan]

I have been dealing with a very similar situation except I'm trying to fit into 4 x 6.   I originally had the Shinkansen just running on a loop around the perimeter but, like you, decided I"d rather have the ability to get it up and down to the 'street' level so I could park it in the yard etc.  So, through probably 20 hours of playing around with Unitrack I came up with a way to bridge the two levels that fits into this space.  I'll try to post some pictures later tonight.  The thing that makes it work is to use the viaduct supports that are composed of six legs (like this - http://sumidacrossing.org/ModelTrains/TrackandRoadbed/KatoUnitrack/KatoViaductsandTrack/files/slab-viaduct-narrow-catenary-4456.jpg), not the ones that look like big cement piers.  You can cut away individual legs to accommodate track running underneath.

[spacecadet]

 

My biggest issue is that I'm trying to make platforms long enough to fit 8 cars.  

 

Yeah, I'm having the same issue. The suburban station I have really only fits 6 cars and I don't actually think I can expand it anymore. I just discovered that the maximum length of the yard I can build inside a maxed out inner loop is 6 cars. (Though I might be able to build up and over the yard and then use the full length of the table.) I will have the same problem with the viaduct station for the shinkansen. Everything's pushing me to 6 cars, so I might just give in, running 8 (or 11) cars on "special occasions" only. During the 2020 Olympics when there's a lot of extra demand, for example :)

 

Well, I went to N scale originally because I couldn't do much of anything at all in my basement with an HO layout. (I still have a bunch of HO trains.) So I'm still happy to be able to do as much as I am able to in N scale, even if there are still some compromises. Maybe someday I'll switch to Z scale and run 11 car trains all over my 4x8 layout!

Edited January 6, 2015 by spacecadet

[kvp]

If you look closely at the plan i posted above, the suburban station is actually 8 cars long. The yard is only 7.5 but you can add another 7 cm. If you move the crossover to the other side of the loop, you can even add another 2 cars. I have to admit, it's really pushing it and the trains have to stop very precisely (also close coupling them helps a bit), but it's possible. Personally most of my longer trains are either 6 or 7 cars or 1 book, so that seems to be a good compromise and 7 cars fit without any problems. The trick is that both loops are maxed out so there are no inner and outer loops only front and back.

[katoftw]

If you look closely at the plan i posted above, the suburban station is actually 8 cars long. The yard is only 7.5 but you can add another 7 cm.

Just if they are 145mm long.  I noticed you used tomix track.

 

The Shinkansen plaforms are only long enough for 5 cars.

 

I've decided to go with Jeffs suggestion and add some length.  even an extra 300mm makes things so much easier.

[kvp]

 

Just if they are 145mm long. I noticed you used tomix track.

Yes, 14 mm equals to one standard 20 m suburban car in 1:150. :-) Accidentally this is the basic track piece size used by Tomix, which makes calculating train and platform lengths a bit easier. The shinkansen station is good for a 7 car mini shinkansen or just barely 6 cars of normal length if the set is close coupled. (they have to stop very carefully to clear both turnouts, but it's possible)

 

 

I've decided to go with Jeffs suggestion and add some length. even an extra 300mm makes things so much easier.

When you have the space, making the layout larger is imho always the better solution.

[katoftw]

Can shinkansen navigate Tomix R317 viaduct curves?  Thinking of using R354-391 viaduct for my shinkansen and need the R317 for a decline off the station to a ground level yard.

[E6系]

Hello katoftw.

 

Yes, they will work on R317.  But only the mini-shinkansen will work on R280.

[railsquid]

My Shinkansens (Kato 0-kei, Tomix 100-kei) work on Tomix R243 viaduct curves. Clearance is very tight, and they look mildly ridiculous, but they can squeeze through.

[NJHA]

Platforms big enough to fit 8 cars are difficult to come by with a frame of 2400x1200mm. 

My frame is 2800x900 and i can fit 8 regular cars on it, or 7 for the shinkansens. But my station diagonally crosses the layout at a 30º angle to maximize space and that has a lot of influence on the general layout design (i can still incorporate a 186mm straight on the station making it capable of taking 9 regular cars or 8 car shinkansen, but even if i extend the layout the station will not grow bigger, only if i change its position).

Assuming 317 curves on the tomix lineup you need 634mm of space for the curves (inner curves, the outer ones need a bit more). With curves at both sides you "waste" 1268mm. If you have a 2400 mm table this means that you have less than 1200mm for a station, and you still have to place the turnouts, so you will end with less than 1000 mm of free tracks and that amounts to near 7 regular cars . 

 

Decisions, decisions. 

[E6系]

I am not too sure of your math there, NJHA. 

 

R317 means the distance from the centre to the midpoint between the rails is 317mm.  You really need another 30mm or so beyond that.  Let's say, 350mm in total.  Because the curve is a  semi-circle at each end you need double that: 700mm.  2400 - 700 leaves straights of 1700mm in length.  The radii increase at 37mm increments, so the next one is R354.  Say 380mm with a bit of space at each end.  2 x 380 = 760.  2400 less 760 will leave straights of 1640mm.  Personally, I prefer to keep the track about 75mm from the edges, so if it were me, I would base the layout on straights of 1500mm.

[NJHA]

E6, you are correct, of course. 

 

Silly me counted a full circle on each side instead of what it really is, half circle. 

So it is like you say, you have 1640mm worth of straight line to play with. If you use turnouts the kato #6 turnouts "steal" 186mm each (i think) so you end up with 1260mm of "free" track, that is enough for 8 normal cars.

[katoftw]

Turnouts may not steal available straights.  It may add to it. Depends on you plans and what you are trying to achieve for an end result.

 

If you used one sided platforms and had only and up and down line. Then you'd have enough straight/platform for 8 shinkansen cars and still use the larger R381-414 double track curves/viaducts.  It would be a simple oval fitting into a 4x8.

 

But it all goes back to the first line.  What is the modeller trying to achieve as the end result?  A oval may just enough to make them happy.

 

The only way to mix local and shinkansen in a 4"x8" layout using Kato is to have the shinkansen on a viaduct, and the locals on the ground.  A viaduct oval as descirbed above would have the dimensions of 2358mm x 871mm.  Width is just about maxed out, luckily viaducts have walls.  And the ground level local stuff can be done in what plan you like that fits between the viaduct supports.

 

This is the smallest oval to be made if running 8 car shinkansens.  Unless you wanna have plaforms not long enough.  And/or use tighter curves.  But using tighter curves is only gonna net a 132mm extra space if using R315 and R348 curves.  Personally I dont like using the wooden tracks too much, and concrete ones are what are used today.  And I prefer a modern looking layout.

 

Kato doesn't support the ability to make the station as described above, so you have to raise it youself with a bit of woodwork.  Place buildings and/or the local station etc in front of it to hide the woodwork.  If you place the viaduct station right at the back, for the ground level stuff,  you have about 28cm between the front viaduct section and the front of the table.  Or 23cm realisticly as you'll want your track centres 50mm min from the front edge of the table.

 

To be honest.  I find modelling Shinkansens a pain in the ****.  Unless you wanna use 4 car units, then you need alot of space.

Edited January 9, 2015 by katoftw

[kvp]

A common trick on european layouts is to place the station turnouts into the curves, so the platforms could be larger. This requires either curved turnouts or the curved parts of turnouts to be used as the last parts of the side curves. Another less common but very nice trick is to place the station between two opposing corners. This requires either a hidden section or elevated tracks and results in a figure 8 layout.

 

ps: Imho there are various kinds of model railroaders. Some of us are runners, meaning they just want to watch trains run, for them some kind of loop is good. The other end of the scale is prototypical operations fans, who want to run their layout as a real railroad be it a passenger or freight one. Suprisingly many shelf and point to point layouts are built by them. The middle ground is someone who wants to see trains run but also wants some variety. Usually they make the compromise of a loop with sidings. The sidings limit the train lengths and the loops limit the operation possibilities, but it's a compromise most layout builders make to have some from both worlds.

 

I've drawn two examples for the turnouts in the curve idea. The left side is the common way, the right is the tricky. Using the same track structure on both sides results in enough platform space for 16 car commuter trains on a 240 cm long layout. (depth is around 120 cm for both) I know that this is a bit extreme, but possible and both with Kato and Tomix tracks. Actually they look very much the same.

 

 

[HantuBlauLOL]

You only need one S72.5 on the diverging route after the turnout to insert the island platform..