Suspended layout - ideas?

[JohnD]

Hi folks!

I used to have a coffee-table layout, but it turned out not to be compatible with our new dog......so now I'm planning to make a bigger layout suspended in the ceiling in our living room. 

The new layout is to be a torsion-box approximately  1x2 m which make it much larger than the coffee-table layout I used to have.  Its  to be hoisted up under the ceiling when not in use.  Our living room has a standard heigth of 2.4m, but fortunately a part of it higher, so when hoisted up, the underside of the layout should be on level with the rest of the ceiling.

 

This project has some challenges:

 

I'm planning to use wooden panel at the underside of the torsion-box as this side will be a part of the ceiling when not in use.  Is this ok, or is it better to use a sheet of plywood instead?

 

Im also planning not to glue the top sheet of the box to the frame below.  Instead I will use hinges so it can be possible to lift the top for wiring etc.  Will the torsion box be stiff enough without gluing the top?

 

The main challenge is the hoist system.  As this is the living room it is mandatory to have a high  WAF for this project.  How to make a reliable, good looking hoist system that is concealed when not in use? 

 

All comments and advises are most appreciated!

 

Edited December 30, 2014 by JohnD

[HantuBlauLOL]

So the board would be retracted inside the ceiling with the bottom of the module is level with it? IMHO you need a strong material with elegant finishing..

 

Just my 2 cents though, I'm nowhere near professional..

[JohnD]

I have attached a picture now.

No, not inside the ceiling, see the picture.  The plan is to have the layout suspended in the ceiling - behind the beam with the loudspeakers.  Behind the beam the ceiling is almost 3 meters high.  If the layout is 1 meter wide, it will not conflict the film screen you see in the picture.

[gerryo]

This sounds like a novel idea.  Not something many people have done in the past.

 

Just one question.  What would hold it steady while you work or play on it?  Could you set it on the dining room table while you use it?

[cteno4]

John,

 

Welcome! Yes this has been done quite a bit by folks in rooms and garages. Folks usually use a rope and pulls system to haul it up and down. You can buy a set meant for just this purpose to haul a storage 'shelf' up and down in a garage.

 

For the box I would fix the top to the frame and the hinge the underside paneling piece. I think this might be easier than having to tip the whole layout top. You could haul it part way up and drop the bottom panel and work on the wiring like on a car on a lift. But either way should work. Do a few cross braces in the frame and if you use thin paneling material on the bottom you might want to glue some stiffing strips across it (like 10-20mm square or rectangular stock) as thin paneling or plywood will sag over larger areas w.o bracing horizontally. If the bottom is fixed and you hinge the top you don't need thick ply on the bottom as the panel will mainly be a wrack brace. Frame should probably be like 15mm stock and 10cm high to give a sturdy frame.

 

You could just get s folding table the layout could res on when lowered (just have cross bracing in the frame to pickup the table top) and not worry about legs, or do screw on ones (you could probably hide the leg brackets under your bottom panel and only have a hole for the leg thread stock to screw into.)

 

Cheers

 

Jeff

[kvp]

I've seen an example for this in an old Berliner TT Bahn idea book a few years ago. On the picture it was suspended with 4 ropes that were threaded through 4 children swing mounting loops and connected to the layout on its 4 corners. The ropes were unhookable once the folding legs were opened, so they could be pulled back up. They were tied together, so the lift is always level and their common end could be hooked into a loop on the wall to hold the layout up.

 

I think any lightweight frame that doesn't need a hard top would work in this case, so no need to use a door as the original suggestion. You can cover the bottom with anything as long as it's light enough. Imho it should be light enough so one person can lift it with the ropes and strong enough that it stays in form without a fixed top or bottom.

[katoftw]

As other have said, it is not an original idea.  Googling will probably net a few results to follow.

 

Personally I'd remove the dog from the situation, rather than having to go to extra effort for the dog's naughtiness.

Edited December 31, 2014 by katoftw

[cteno4]

I think it's a good compromise all around. Coffee table layout are by nature very low and prone to getting bashed by kids, adults, housecleaners, and pets. This way he can have a much larger layout and may not have the room to dedicate to a layout full time and still have a happy relationship with his dog! In a small house it's hard (emotionally and practically) to ban a loved pet from much of the area.

 

Small pullies can be your friend here as well. Using them at the ceiling will eliminate the friction of line going thru eye screws at the ceiling. If weight becomes an issue another small pully at the layout will reduce the force needed by half, but increases your line length (good quality nylon line though is pretty small and light to lift your needs easily). Using a double pully at one end would reduce the lift force to a third the weight (so a 60kg layout would only take 20kg effort on the lines total).

 

Biggest issue with pullies on lifting something like this to the ceiling is that with a simple pully setup you need to route all the lines over to one place if lifting by yourself. This means some more pullies and being careful not to get lines tangled. This is where I was talking about those pully lift systems for garage ceiling storage. These use a single crank with a reduction gear to lift. Problem is they ain't cheap, but they do make things a lot simpler!

 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0009I8AO6/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_dp_ss_1?pf_rd_p=1944687642&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B000QV5SZA&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=0A3XBZY84BCZYFHEX8PA

 

http://www.amazon.com/Thule-Load-Box-Lift/dp/B000QV5SZA

 

There are ways to string your lines to reduce the number of lines, but they get more complex. Woth these you could go to having a little lift frame that is always attached to your pully system that the layout detaches from and you lift out of the way when not in use. These all have some drawbacks that will need some design attention in practice and why I mentioned the lift system above as its a no brainier and should work to do what you need right out of the box...

 

http://www.instructables.com/id/Paracord-and-Pulley-Hanging-Table/

 

http://wiki.ece.cmu.edu/ddl/index.php/Image:Storage_Lift_Concept01.png

 

Kvp is right with the right design and construction your layout frame could be pretty lightweight. Think airplane wing design with thin ply cross bracing ala wine carton divider and then you don't need a really heavy outside frame, load fest distributed more evenly when you attach to your 4 lift points.

 

Love to see what you come up with! Will be fun to see in action!

 

Here's some inspiration! Going to motors can help a little but another set of design needs.

 

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=G686q7NphBU

 

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xXZaUoMb-60

 

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=di0YV3mzSQc

 

Couldn't find the chap that had a like 20'x20' whole room layout that traveled up into the ceiling. took up about all his living room, that I think was some high end penthouse and he could not get another room for his layout!

 

Cheers

 

Jeff

[JohnD]

Thank you for a lot of good ideas and helpfulness. And Jeff, thanks for helpful links - the Thule box lifting system is maybe the easiest way of doing it.  I have also considered a winch system like this,

 

http://www.biltema.no/no/Bil---MC/Laste-og-Trekke/Elektrisk-vinsj/Loftevinsj-EH800-15359/

 

but I suppose the layout would be quite unstable during hoisting up and down - as long as there is only one suspension point.  A four point suspension is of course much more stable.

[kvp]

You could use 4 winches on two axles, powered by a single motor with a chain drive from the primary axle to the secondary. That would keep them in sync and it's strong enough to hold up a really heavy layout. It's even possible to cover the whole lifting system from the underside with wood planks, so the layout's bottom will be flush with them in the up position. (i would also add an up position end switch)

 

ps: I was thinking about a simple dog (and cat) safe coffe table layout and i think it's one that is inside the coffe table, covered with glass (or lexan with scratch protection film) on 5 sides. I think if it's properly designed (or lockable), then most dogs can't lift the top glass to get inside. It's also usable as an actual coffe table and can be covered with a table cloth to hide it.

Edited January 1, 2015 by kvp

[cteno4]

John,

 

You are most welcome!

 

Yeah going with a single lift point is tough as you would need to put a single connection point in the center of the layout and that structurally would be more of a challenge to engineer. Also woud need to be balanced some what then some guide lines to keep it steady and level when in transit. If you do 4 guy wires from a single lift cable to the corners it will also take up more vertical space and the layout could not fit as close to the ceiling. Also it would put quite a bit of force laterally from the corners toward the center of the layout so would need some X brace to male sure the frame takes that well.

 

Yeah the platform lift seemed the simplest for your size and use pretty much out of the box. It costs a bit (not sure what it would be in Norway). I saw that garage platform one priced from $130-250 for the same thing so shopping may help. Thule one looked almost identical in design, just w.o the platform. Making your own can add up in price. I've noted over the last decade on projects like this it's not so cheap anymore for all the fittings and such as it use to be and at times I'm shocked what I end up paying for a very simple fitting that makes a project I was attempting on the cheap no longer be!

 

The platform lift looks like you could easily motorized it by connecting a small geared motor to it, would not need to be super powerful as the lift system is already geared down some. 12/24v electric car window motors have pretty good gearing on them and might work cheap. Nice thing is it could be two steps, first just use the hand crank ans if that was too bothersome add a motor!

 

Most coffee table layouts are protected like this on the sides and top with glass and plex. I converted a small layout I helped one club member to a full coffee table layout (with full plate glass top and removable side plex windows) when he gave it to another member. Even covered coffee table layout tend to take bumps and bangs a lot that of course derails things, this has been the main issue since the layout was converted to the coffee table layout. Just some thing about knees and shins and coffee tables. Our main living room coffee table has a piece of heavy plate glass on top that rests on a few columns (on rubber feet). It's not easy to move the top laterally, but I'm always finding knocked off center no matter the positioning and space give relative to the furniture around it.

 

Btw there is a company that makes custom coffee table layouts here in the states and features a cool design that uses a flatscreen tv lift to pop the layout up out of the top of the table! Quite fun! There was also an ikea table that a lot of folks coverted easily into a nicely protected coffee table layout w.o much modification.

 

Yeah there are many ways to do a motorized pully lift. Loved the different approaches on those few YouTube videos. Turnbuckles were a great use in the one to adjust the multiple cable lengths on that one (hey that's what they were designed for!).

 

Will be fun to see what john comes up with!

 

Cheers

 

Jeff

Edited January 1, 2015 by cteno4

[beakaboy]

Hi John. My suggestion would be a specially designed cabinet like a wardrobe, but more elegant to fit in with the décor. Finding room may be the problem though. A friend in New Zealand had a problem having a layout in his home due to space constraints and his wife not wanting the layout up all the time. She wanted the family to still have time together rather than the husband out in the shed working on his projects. The result was a cabinet with a modified door which pulled down and out and had the layout mounted on the opposite side. This enabled a reasonable sized layout which could be swung up and away, so that it was not visible when not being used. I have posted a link to photos, etc and I hope you can access it to get an idea of the concept. Just a thought John

 

http://www.nz120.org/forumtopic/those-who-think-they-cannot-have-layout-due-lack-space

[JohnD]

Finally, I have finished the suspended layout.    After some trying and failing, I bought an electric winch to hoist the layout to the ceiling.  First I tried the skibox lift from Thule, but the tropes did not wind up evenly, making the layout out of level when hoisted up.  That could may be fixed, but the space while cranking it up where very cramped and made the whole operation very cumbersome.

 

The electric winch , although  cheap, noisy and to speedy, was a better  solution for me.  It has two main drawbacks - the layout  is a bit unstable during transit and it sterilises the center of the layout, which cannot be covered with tracks etc. 

 

The  wooden box under the layout suits well for putting inn weighs for balance, so the transit is not to wobbly, but I don't think I will have my trains on the tracks while hoisting!

 

When lowered, the layout rests on two trestles.  They are foldable, making them easy to stow away  when not in use.

 

Next step is to make a track plan - combining an elevated shinkansen double track oval with two or three other lines + a tomytec bus system on a 1X2 meter area is maybe to much to chew on.....

 

 

 

 

[cteno4]

John,

 

Excellent! Simple it worked with the single point lift. KISS works! Just plop a building you can lift off the lift ring! Folding sawhorses are perfect.

 

Now you can spend some time playing with track and start to see what will be the most fun in the space for what you want.

 

Really surpurb! Kudos.

 

Jeff