Why is DCC not popular in Japan?

[railsquid]

So... I was hoping the Kato Hobby Centre would have some kind of DCC demonstration, but no - they just had a small display cabinet with their outdated Digitrax Zephyr controller and some random, expensive-looking decoders.

 

My theories are:

- HO was never big (hah) in Japan, meaning there was never an "early adopter" wave when DCC was available but not yet suitable for N;

- Japan is a multiple-unit dominated country - any DCC models would need to not only have a motor decoder, but also separate accessory decoders in the cab units at each end;

- a "typical" Japanese layout is a temporary one set up at the weekend on the floor consisting of a couple of loops and maybe some sidings; track robustness is more important than being able to punt multiple powered units around on the same section of track

 

Any other ideas?

[Nick_Burman]

So... I was hoping the Kato Hobby Centre would have some kind of DCC demonstration, but no - they just had a small display cabinet with their outdated Digitrax Zephyr controller and some random, expensive-looking decoders.

 

My theories are:

- HO was never big (hah) in Japan, meaning there was never an "early adopter" wave when DCC was available but not yet suitable for N;

- Japan is a multiple-unit dominated country - any DCC models would need to not only have a motor decoder, but also separate accessory decoders in the cab units at each end;

- a "typical" Japanese layout is a temporary one set up at the weekend on the floor consisting of a couple of loops and maybe some sidings; track robustness is more important than being able to punt multiple powered units around on the same section of track

 

Any other ideas?

 

Digitrax has recently updated the Zephir. I bought an old one at my LHS which sprung an internal short, when I returned it to the shop and the shop sent it to the USA for repair Digitrax asked $200 to upgrade it to the latest spec.

 

DCC is slowly taking hold in Japan. However since most model train operators of the tatami-after-dinner kind, it's a niche market aimed at more mature modellers.

 

 

Cheers NB

[katoftw]

I'll add in also that in Japan they dont make complex layout like you have done so with yours requiring DCC.  You last point about a "typical" Japanese layout is probably the reason why.  While DCC isn't so popular in Japan, it is advertised everywhere, so there must be buyers everywhere.

[lurkingknight]

My guess...

 

space is at a premium, nobody has room for a permanent layout that would be complicated enough where dcc would make a difference.

 

You see some really nice stuff setup on the floor, but that takes up a whole apartment, with rent as expensive as it is in some places, you're pretty much guaranteed to be moving house sooner than later. Much less to move = easier to move and keep finding the cheap places to rent, or conveniently located to where work would be.

 

If you live in the city, relocating a big/complicated dcc layout is going to drive your moving costs up. Rooms where people set up floor layouts are probably doubling up as living rooms or dining rooms.

[kvp]

I would also like to add that modern japanese train operations don't need dcc at all. Typically you have only one train in each block and this translates to a maximum of one train between two stations on a layout. Since japanese turnouts are power routing, you can pretty much control as many trains as you can with two hands with basic block control only. (=by selectring routes with turnouts) Dcc is really good when you want to make various consists or move more than one train in the same block. This isn't typical in Japan in prototype or model.

 

Everything else (like constantly lit headlights and interior lights, sound effects) can be done with analog trains too and i would add that it's much cheaper to have one good controller and a separate sound unit than to chip each train (with sound equipped decoders and separate headlight decoders) and have a dcc central with lots of accessory decoders in everything.

 

Also, many people think that a dc layout must be a couple of loops and anything more complex needs dcc or complex wiring. For a layout with multiple stations, if you just add controllers to each line section and power stations from the line through fully power routing turnouts, then you can move as many trains at the same time as the number of line sections between each station. In this setup, it's easier to remember which controller controls which section (and the train in it), than to remember which train is which number and where it is now. Also the number of sections equals with the number of physical dials you can turn. With dcc, once you go from controlling one or two trains at a time to 4 or more it either gets very complex and/or very expensive. And then there are the turnouts, where you either go analog, try to switch them on your dcc central with numerical codes or have to use some form of digital control board.

 

Japanse engineers have made building complex layouts very simple. Making loops is something that is considered hard with dc and even most western style dcc layouts use loop modules with shortcircuit detection to switch the track polarity. Fully power routing turnouts make this easy, as you can select the right polarity with the turnout and by adding a sensor that throws the turnout before the train you also take care of the polarity without extra circuits. This works both in dc and dcc. (in dc, you have to power the layout from the loop side, so you don't have to touch the controller) Combining this with a line powered station strategy, you can have a single track layout with two loops, two controllers and a station and run two trains passing each other at the station with dc. And then next time you unpack the tracks and set them up on the floor, you can make a double track end to end layout with two terminal stations or a single track layout with 3 stations with the same parts, without reprogramming anything. This can be done with dcc too, but using it won't make it easier or more fun.

[NJHA]

To me, the main reason is the temporary nature of the layouts. 

If it is to assemble, play and disassemble you want the less fuss possible, in order to maximize play time.

You don't want to waste time troubleshooting that faulty connection, or setting up a complex wiring or DCC station programming.

 

So, not going the DCC route, the Japanese modeler saves enough money to buy one or two trains that for sure will give him/her more pleasure.  

And since it is temporary anyway, you can switch trains anytime, with no need (or desire) to control more than 2 at each time. Dealing with power districts caused by the power routing switches adds up on the fun, and you can simulate a train station movement in a more realistic form.

 

I wonder who gets the most fun... the DCC guy or the DC guy.  

[E6系]

My theories are:

- HO was never big (hah) in Japan, meaning there was never an "early adopter" wave when DCC was available but not yet suitable for N;

- Japan is a multiple-unit dominated country - any DCC models would need to not only have a motor decoder, but also separate accessory decoders in the cab units at each end;

- a "typical" Japanese layout is a temporary one set up at the weekend on the floor consisting of a couple of loops and maybe some sidings; track robustness is more important than being able to punt multiple powered units around on the same section of track

 

Any other ideas?

 

No

 

No

 

Yes ... most layouts in Japan are "played" on the floor and then packed away.  Those who lay track on a base board are in a minority ... :D

[shadowtiger25]

I would also like to add that modern japanese train operations don't need dcc at all. Typically you have only one train in each block and this translates to a maximum of one train between two stations on a layout. Since japanese turnouts are power routing, you can pretty much control as many trains as you can with two hands with basic block control only. (=by selectring routes with turnouts) Dcc is really good when you want to make various consists or move more than one train in the same block. This isn't typical in Japan in prototype or model.

 

Everything else (like constantly lit headlights and interior lights, sound effects) can be done with analog trains too and i would add that it's much cheaper to have one good controller and a separate sound unit than to chip each train (with sound equipped decoders and separate headlight decoders) and have a dcc central with lots of accessory decoders in everything.

 

Also, many people think that a dc layout must be a couple of loops and anything more complex needs dcc or complex wiring. For a layout with multiple stations, if you just add controllers to each line section and power stations from the line through fully power routing turnouts, then you can move as many trains at the same time as the number of line sections between each station. In this setup, it's easier to remember which controller controls which section (and the train in it), than to remember which train is which number and where it is now. Also the number of sections equals with the number of physical dials you can turn. With dcc, once you go from controlling one or two trains at a time to 4 or more it either gets very complex and/or very expensive. And then there are the turnouts, where you either go analog, try to switch them on your dcc central with numerical codes or have to use some form of digital control board.

 

Japanse engineers have made building complex layouts very simple. Making loops is something that is considered hard with dc and even most western style dcc layouts use loop modules with shortcircuit detection to switch the track polarity. Fully power routing turnouts make this easy, as you can select the right polarity with the turnout and by adding a sensor that throws the turnout before the train you also take care of the polarity without extra circuits. This works both in dc and dcc. (in dc, you have to power the layout from the loop side, so you don't have to touch the controller) Combining this with a line powered station strategy, you can have a single track layout with two loops, two controllers and a station and run two trains passing each other at the station with dc. And then next time you unpack the tracks and set them up on the floor, you can make a double track end to end layout with two terminal stations or a single track layout with 3 stations with the same parts, without reprogramming anything. This can be done with dcc too, but using it won't make it easier or more fun.

Although there are some DCC decoders, but they can be ran on DC and operated with controllers that work in DC. Its easier to do that then make a DCC layout.

[mrp]

Probably nothing in it, but two random things caught my eye recently:

 

1) a comment by westfalen on the “What Did You Order…” thread:

 

Kato ED19 arrived on Friday.  A nice little loco but it's going to take a little thought installing DCC in this one.  Kato seem to be deviating from their usual DCC friendlyness with some of their new diesel and electric mechanisms.

 

 

2) and a conversation on a blog I sometimes follow:

 

> モータードライバを使ったポイントデコーダー興味あります。

> KATOのホームページからもDCC関連のページが消えたので、Digitraxの供給もKATOから期待できなくなると、ますます自作の必要性も高くなりますしね。

 

最近、なんかページが見つからないと感じていたんですが、やっぱり、削除されていたんですね。

Digitrax以外のメーカの情報も最近は入手しやすくなってきたとはいえ、KATOというバックボーンを活かした入手性の良さや、初心ユーザの取り込み等への影響を考えると、今後のDCCの進展の方向性を危惧するところです。

 

>今後のDCCの進展の方向性を危惧するところです。

同感ですね。メーカーが普及させようとしないと、どうにもなりませんから。

 

The rough Google translation seems to show the participants questioning Kato’s ongoing commitment to DCC…

 

Can’t be anything in it, right?  I’m sure if Kato was moving away from DCC we’d have read about it somewhere?

 

[katoftw]

The shape of the ED19 is probably more of an issue than Kato dropping the ball on DCC.  They cannot make 100% of their model range DCC friendly.

 

As for the other blog.  Without context, it is hard to comment on one post/view.  Why did the blogger post what he did, etc?

 

And to be honest.  In the context of the whole thread. the point it mute.  Kato is the only Japanese company of 20 something others that supports DCC, so yes DCC is not popular in Japan.  Whether Kato supports it or not, DCC is unpopular.

Edited February 25, 2015 by katoftw

[signalmanson]

I would also like to add that modern japanese train operations don't need dcc at all. Typically you have only one train in each block and this translates to a maximum of one train between two stations on a layout. Since japanese turnouts are power routing, you can pretty much control as many trains as you can with two hands with basic block control only. (=by selectring routes with turnouts) Dcc is really good when you want to make various consists or move more than one train in the same block. This isn't typical in Japan in prototype or model.

 

Everything else (like constantly lit headlights and interior lights, sound effects) can be done with analog trains too and i would add that it's much cheaper to have one good controller and a separate sound unit than to chip each train (with sound equipped decoders and separate headlight decoders) and have a dcc central with lots of accessory decoders in everything.

 

Also, many people think that a dc layout must be a couple of loops and anything more complex needs dcc or complex wiring. For a layout with multiple stations, if you just add controllers to each line section and power stations from the line through fully power routing turnouts, then you can move as many trains at the same time as the number of line sections between each station. In this setup, it's easier to remember which controller controls which section (and the train in it), than to remember which train is which number and where it is now. Also the number of sections equals with the number of physical dials you can turn. With dcc, once you go from controlling one or two trains at a time to 4 or more it either gets very complex and/or very expensive. And then there are the turnouts, where you either go analog, try to switch them on your dcc central with numerical codes or have to use some form of digital control board.

 

Japanse engineers have made building complex layouts very simple. Making loops is something that is considered hard with dc and even most western style dcc layouts use loop modules with shortcircuit detection to switch the track polarity. Fully power routing turnouts make this easy, as you can select the right polarity with the turnout and by adding a sensor that throws the turnout before the train you also take care of the polarity without extra circuits. This works both in dc and dcc. (in dc, you have to power the layout from the loop side, so you don't have to touch the controller) Combining this with a line powered station strategy, you can have a single track layout with two loops, two controllers and a station and run two trains passing each other at the station with dc. And then next time you unpack the tracks and set them up on the floor, you can make a double track end to end layout with two terminal stations or a single track layout with 3 stations with the same parts, without reprogramming anything. This can be done with dcc too, but using it won't make it easier or more fun.

I do have ( albeit modest ! ) both DC and DCC controllers but as I'm in the process of changing from American to Japanese outline I'd really appreciate any hints and tips on running DC as I don't relish the thought of having decoders fitted to all my new acquisitions.

 

You mention "  (like constantly lit headlights and interior lights, sound effects) can be done with analog trains too and i would add that it's much cheaper to have one good controller and a separate sound unit than to chip each train (with sound equipped decoders and separate headlight decoders) and have a dcc central with lots of accessory decoders in everything."

 

As my knowledge and experience of  DC and DCC is very limited  I'm wondering whether anyone can provide some guidance or point me in the right direction ?

 

 

[katoftw]

DC and DCC whether it be Amercian or Japanese is similar.  It's not really about DC and DCC.  But what the manufacturers offer.

 

Kato has a soundbox.  And it is every expensive.  And you need 1 per throttle/track.  And they currently only have sound cards for 70s USA diesels and Japanese stream engines.

 

Tomix offer a feature called Constant Lighting.  It allow the head, tail and interior lights to be fully lit with the train moving.  Unlike other brands that as the power is applied, the lighting become stronger/brighter.  It is big deal to some, not so big deal to others.

[kvp]

On the other hand Tomix has an excellent controller family with realistic driving controls, engine sounds for most japanese trains, environment sounds with track sensors (like tunnel, bridge and station noises) and also supports constant lighting, so the lights stay on even when the trains are stopped. And this is packaged into a single controller. (many types exist, one for each driving control style, but one type can run all the train types, even those that had different throttle and brake controls) And you can even place your own watch on the dashboard, like on real japanese trains...

 

The point is, that there is a plug and play DC solution to most problems that DCC with computer control can solve, except having more than one locomotive in the same block and moving towards each other. This is the classical use of DCC for US style shunting operations, that is not easy to do in analog DC. Fortunately in Japan this is rather rare.

[signalmanson]

As far as creating isolation blocks are concerned, do I need any particular switch e.g. 24-840 Turnout Control Switch  or will something more economical suffice ?

Edited February 25, 2015 by signalmanson

[signalmanson]

On the other hand Tomix has an excellent controller family with realistic driving controls, engine sounds for most japanese trains, environment sounds with track sensors (like tunnel, bridge and station noises) and also supports constant lighting, so the lights stay on even when the trains are stopped. And this is packaged into a single controller. (many types exist, one for each driving control style, but one type can run all the train types, even those that had different throttle and brake controls) And you can even place your own watch on the dashboard, like on real japanese trains...

 

The point is, that there is a plug and play DC solution to most problems that DCC with computer control can solve, except having more than one locomotive in the same block and moving towards each other. This is the classical use of DCC for US style shunting operations, that is not easy to do in analog DC. Fortunately in Japan this is rather rare.

Many thanks for that. Unfortunately Tomix suppliers in the U.K are virtually non - existent. Any suggestions ?

[kvp]

http://www.modeltrainplus.net/

http://1999.co.jp/eng/rail

http://www.loco1hobby.net/

 

All of them are in Japan, but shipping and customs usually gets you the same or better price than buying locally.

[mrp]

And to be honest.  In the context of the whole thread. the point it mute.  Kato is the only Japanese company of 20 something others that supports DCC, so yes DCC is not popular in Japan.  Whether Kato supports it or not, DCC is unpopular.

 

I’m simply interested in which direction it’s going.  If the Japanese market for DCC is slowly becoming more popular over time then one could imagine the other manufacturers also thinking about supporting it.  On the other hand, if the only major Japanese manufacturer waving the DCC flag has decided it’s a lost cause then…

 

[kvp]

Kato will support DCC since they also sell european and american models that need to be DCC ready or DCC equipped from the start to be competitive. Since there is a limited market for selling japanse rolling stock to european and american train fans who already have DCC on their layouts, Kato makes an effort to support DCC in some of the models where there is enough space for it. Also they use these special pcb connectors for their decoders so even sockets and analog plugs are not wasted on models that will mostly be run as analog. This has almost zero additional cost for them and they can market japanese trains for their overseas customers. On the other hand, this market is so small that most japanese manufacturers don't really care about it. (for example, Tomix doesn't really sell their trains outside of Japan and they are one of the big names)

[railsquid]

The rough Google translation seems to show the participants questioning Kato’s ongoing commitment to DCC…

 

Can’t be anything in it, right?  I’m sure if Kato was moving away from DCC we’d have read about it somewhere?

 

 

A quick search for "kato dcc" on Japanese Google brings up pages I seem to remember last time I looked seriously.

 

However when I was looking at DCC last year, I was hoping to gain enlightenment from a visit to the main Kato store in Tokyo, but they only have one little shelf with a bunch of unappealingly placed DCC-related stuff, which didn't exactly inspire.

 

Since I originally started this thread, I've come to the conclusion that if I was running mainly European stuff, I'd have a smaller number of more expensive powered units, which would mainly be DCC-ready locomotives - in which case DCC would be feasible. However I also have a larger number of cheaper Japanese, mainly multiple units, none of which have DCC sockets or are DCC friendly - the thought of  converting all those to DCC is off-putting to to say the least: due to cost, including controllers for lighting units, and the hassle of manually soldering dozens and dozens of chips into stock with little or no space for them... DC-based block switching will be the much less painful option.

[mrp]

I’m not totally convinced…

 

I understand that European and American models absolutely have to support DCC.   I’m just wondering if there’s been a subtle change in Kato’s strategy for their domestic market.

 

From what I’d been reading, it felt like Kato had been making an effort to ensure that even units they knew in advance would *never* be sold outside of Japan were at least somewhat DCC-friendly

 

But wouldn’t supporting DCC mean setting aside valuable interior space for larger PCBs, connectors, and the decoder - which could conceivably put them at a competitive disadvantage to domestic-only competitors like Tomix?

 

And other things I’ve noticed:

 

- Although the Kato D101 (Japanese version of Digitrax Zephyr DCS50K) is listed on Kato’s web-site, you don’t seem to be able to actually purchase it anywhere any more.  And Digitrax has since upgraded the Zephyr to the DCS51, but Kato never released a Japanese version of that.

 

- The most recent release on the Kato DCC-friendly list on their web site is from 2013;

 

- If you look at the Kato USA web site, the only imported Japanese models currently listed are the Portram / Centram and the Glacier Express.  Previously they’ve had all sorts of imported sets including Shinkansen.

 

- Kato’s newest, brightest, most expensive product - the Unitrack Soundbox - screams out on the front of the box in red letters 6 inches high “DO NOT USE WITH DCC UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES”.

 

 

Ok, well maybe a slight exaggeration.

 

Anyway, enough with the conspiracy theories  :icon_blackeye:  I guess it could just reflect the ongoing lack of general consumer interest in DCC in Japan, rather than any change in strategy on the part of Kato.

 

[railsquid]

 

- Although the Kato D101 (Japanese version of Digitrax Zephyr DCS50K) is listed on Kato’s web-site, you don’t seem to be able to actually purchase it anywhere any more.  And Digitrax has since upgraded the Zephyr to the DCS51, but Kato never released a Japanese version of that.

 

 

The D101 does seem to have largely sold out. I was on the verge of buying one last year (before realising it was outdated) and the most of the online stores I linked to in my bookmarks don't have one any more. Tamtam still does: http://www.hs-tamtam.co.jp/item-9554.html

 

However, looking at the 2015 Kato catalogue, the D101 is advertised, albeit tucked away right at the back. Also, if this is the list of DCC models you're referring to: http://www.katomodels.com/hobby/dcc/kato_friendly.shtml , it seems very out of date; flicking through the catalogue the newer releases seem to be mainly marked as DCC-friendly. Example: the 6000-kei Chiyoda line set released late last year (10-1143).

 

Anyway, enough with the conspiracy theories  :icon_blackeye:  I guess it could just reflect the ongoing lack of general consumer interest in DCC in Japan, rather than any change in strategy on the part of Kato.

 

 

Probably... I don't consider myself an expert, but having spent a lot of time hanging around various model shops etc. in Tokyo, I've never got the impression it's any more than a very niche market. The only places I've actually seen DCC-related products on sale are the above mentioned Tamtam and the Kato store.

[mrp]

... flicking through the catalogue the newer releases seem to be mainly marked as DCC-friendly. Example: the 6000-kei Chiyoda line set released late last year (10-1143).

 

Well I guess they’re still in the game.

 

Although I still want a t-shirt like this:

 

[katoftw]

 

I’m not totally convinced…

 

- Although the Kato D101 (Japanese version of Digitrax Zephyr DCS50K) is listed on Kato’s web-site, you don’t seem to be able to actually purchase it anywhere any more.  And Digitrax has since upgraded the Zephyr to the DCS51, but Kato never released a Japanese version of that.

Except that they did a re run of this product last year.  You cannot find it as it sold out completely.  All were sold as pre-order.  I almost brought it.  But the 2nd version from Digitrax is better, hence I didn't buy the outdated Kato 1st version.

 

I think you need to forget what hearsay and rumours you are reading and have a look around to what is really happening.  Someone already posted models are being released in the future as still being DCC friendly.

 

The main DCC chips (EM13 FL12 etc) are always out of stock.  They sell them quicker than they can make them.  So somebody is buying them.  And if somebody is buying them, then Kato/Digitrax is gonna keep on making them.

Edited February 26, 2015 by katoftw

[westfalen]

All I can say is that I can't be certain of whether I can put a decoder in a new release Kato loco these days until I get it in my hands and take the body shell off.  Even retooled versions of old releases sometimes have redesigned mechanisms that while it looks like one of the available drop-in decoders will fit closer examination finds they have made the circuit board just that much different that it's not possible (thank goodness for NGDCC here).

 

I don't think Kato are deliberately trying to discourage DCC, just that they are finding it's not worth the effort for the local market,  the Union Pacific 4-8-4 was designed with a drop in decoder but it was aimed at the American market.

[Melandir]

I got a couple of the latest run of Kato loco and they use the same lightboard (Kato 3066) that could be replaced with Digitrax DN163K4A that is sold by Kato, it's a pity that TCS does not have a compatible board as I prefer their stuff due to Railcom support