Shinkansen 0 series question: Windows ??

[domino]

I just got home frem a Hobby exhibition here in Denmark , and a guest asked me why is the Windows in some 0 series are small and other 0 series have large Windows in the passenger cars ??

 

Well, does any one know why this is , or is he wong about this  ??

 

brian

[Matteo_IT]

Hello!

I think the serie 0 has only one type of windows... Searching on internet, both kato and tomix are very similar... if there is a difference, this is not appreciable.

[katoftw]

they were different windows.  even tomix recent release of the 0 series last month has a "large window" version.

 

i cannot tell you the difference in windows.  but clearly there is some form of difference.

 

http://www.jnsforum.com/community/topic/8227-japanese-train-design/

 

the only reason i think for the window design change is that with the original long rectangle window, a few rows of seating shared a window.  not good if someone wants the blind up, and someone wants the blind down.

 

where individual windows for each row eliminates this??? maybe???

Edited November 2, 2014 by katoftw

[railsquid]

Off the top of my head, the original design had the wide windows, and the later 0系 2000番台 subclass (1980-ish onwards) had the smaller windows. The 100系 returned to wide windows but subsequent Tokaido/Sanyo Shinkansen designs (300, 500, 700 and 800系) all had/have small windows.

[Sacto1985]

By the way, an interesting little tidbit about the earlier 0 Series trainsets: note the emergency escape hatch on the middle of each car. The newer 0 Series got rid of them along with the larger windows.

[railsquid]

Off the top of my head, the original design had the wide windows, and the later 0系 2000番台 subclass (1980-ish onwards) had the smaller windows.

 

Checking the Japanese Wikipedia page, the smaller windows were introduced with the 0系 1000番台 subclass in 1976; seat pitch was increased in the 0系 2000番台 subclass, which meant the windows were slightly differently spaced.

[domino]

Thanks

 

Brian

[200系]

Even though the answers you've received are more or less correct, I can't help but expand on the subject a little bit. I know not everyone is interested in information like this, but for those who do please bare with me

 

To help place the different details of the 0系 into proper context I think it's important to place the series structuring into context first as well as taking a further look into the variations in terms of sub-types, formations and production batches. The first thing to keep in mind when studying the 0系, or any of the other two J.N.R. shinkansen series (as well as most of the 1067mm J.N.R. series), is the difference as well as the relation between the following terms:

 

- Formation, a consist of a number of cars given a designated letter/number combination into which the letter (or two, as has been the case with the 0系 from 1976 onwards) points towards the intended use of said formation. E.g. formation Nh32 would denote to a post 1976 revision mixed (as in sub-types, more about that later) 16 car hikari formation (the 'N' refers to 'new' (as in the revised 27形/36形/37形 combination) while the 'h obviously revers to 'hikari') where as for example K32 would denote to a post 1972 16 car kodama formation.

- Sub-types, I don't think I need to explain this one, when difference between production batches become sufficient enough it is usually decided to place these cars in a new administrative class.

Small changes between cars, slightly different layouts within a certain car type or rebuilding of cars to another type are usually designated by a number in the hundreds e.g. 25形700番台, While for larger changes numbers in the thousands are normally used e.g. 21形2000番台.

 

The relation between the formations on one hand, and the sub-types on the other is more complex then it might seem at first glance, especially post 1976 with the introduction of the 0系1000番台 and the retirement of the first 0系0番台 production batches (this relates to the cars themselves, not the formations), simply put they are two separate but related entities within the same series.

 

To further explore this subject, and to slowly steer back towards the original question, I think it's important to take a closer look at the production system, as well as the different sub-types within the 0系.

0系 Cars where built continuously between 1964 till mid-1986 across thirty-eight batches, while consisting of three different sub-types (0番台/1000番台/2000番台):

 

0番台: Batch 1~21 (built 1964-1976) batch 1~10 full formations, batch 11~21 full formations as well as extension and replacement of certain car types (batch 17~21)

1000番台: Batch 22~29 (built 1976-1980) with the exception of three full 1000番台 formations (N97~N99) as part of batch 22, they where all built to replace batch 1~5 cars.

2000番台: batch 30~38 (built 1981-1986) All built to replace batch 6~12 cars

 

The original 0番台 cars where indeed built with large windows (as mentioned in this thread, as well as in my own reply in the linked thread). However these windows would often crack during winter months which J.N.R. tried to remedy from batch 16 onwards with a different type of glass, while this helped with the problem it didn't entirely fix it. As large window panels are more expensive to replace then smaller ones, as well as J.N.R. wanting to change the seating layout of the 0系 cars it was decided to switch to smaller window panels for the upcoming replacement cars for the aging original batches,

and so the 1000番台 got it's shape (it also hosted a few other changes to tackle the short service live of the original batches, including but not limited to a slightly thicker gauge of steel plates).

At the end of the 1970's it was becoming increasingly clear that the 0系 design was becoming obsolete and while the 0系1000番台 cars added some needed changes to the series, the interior hadn't changed much in the almost 15 years of production (with exception of the change to a coach layout, the seats and everything else hadn't changed since 1964) giving the series a somewhat dated look.

While J.N.R. had been working on a replacement series for the venerable 0系 since the early 1970's, monetary constraints forced them to focus on developing a 240km/h capable snow proof design for the upcoming Tōhoku and Jōetsu shinkansen (which became the 200系 in 1980) before tackling the replacement of the 0系. As the earlier 0番台 batches still needed replacement it was decided to incorporate some of the features introduced by the then new 200系, one of them was an improved interior with increased seat pitch which was accompanied by an increase in window size (as mentioned in the linked thread) giving birth to the 2000番台. The 2000番台 was kept in production until the 0系 replacement was ready, which would eventually become the 100系 for which (pre) production started in 1986.

 

Now, as these sub-types only refer to the cars themselves, and given the nature of the 0系 retirement process (I.e. new cars replacing life expired older cars, though not necessarily entire formations), from 1976 onwards with 1000番台 cars replacing the earliest 0番台 cars, mixed formations (e.g. formations consisting of 0番台 and 1000番台 cars) where slowly becoming commonplace. By 1980 about 2/3 of all hikari formations (H/Nh/N) and about half of the kodama formations (K later Sk) contained at least one 1000番台 car (with a large group of the 16 car Nh formations consisting of only 5~6 0番台 cars) this process continuing through the last J.N.R. years, though with the introduction of the 2000番台 allowed for 0番台/2000番台, 1000番台/2000番台 and even 0番台/1000番台/2000番台 mixed formations where formed, dropping the number of homogeneous formations to a mere six by 1986. This process continued after the J.N.R. split, with both JR Tōkai and JR West using cars displaced by newly delivered 100系 and 300系 formations to in turn displace older 0系 cars in the remaining formations. As such it wasn't uncommon to see a formation being reformed in the mid 1990's only to be retired two years later, the surviving cars again scattered over remaining formations. This eventually resulted in withdrawal of the final 0番台 cars in 2000, the final 1000番台 car being withdrawn in 2005, while the final 2000番台 cars (though this time in homogeneous formations) where withdrawn as the final 0系 cars on the 14th of December 2008.

 

So in the end, while there is a clear difference between the three sub-types, they would end up mixed together for the better part of the 0系 service life (at least during their time as 16 car formations). As a result of this all formations where also different in terms of the number of sub-types as well as their place within the formation making every formation unique in it's own way.

 

An example of a mixed formation (Nh18, post 1995, 5x 0番台/ 7x 1000番台 and 4x 2000番台):

 

 

 

By the way, an interesting little tidbit about the earlier 0 Series trainsets: note the emergency escape hatch on the middle of each car. The newer 0 Series got rid of them along with the larger windows.

 

 

Only the 0系2000番台 lacked the emergency exits, both the 0番台 and 1000番台 where built with them, though the design was slightly changed for batches 16~29 (therefore making it easy to spot the difference between the early 0番台 batches and the final 0番台 batches as batch 16 added visible contours around the exit hatch).

Both JR West and JR Tōkai started removing these exit hatches on their surviving cars by the mid 1990's though not all 0番台 and 1000番台 cars had them removed before their retirement.

 

Anyway, I think I once again proved I have no life, but I hope it is of interest to some.

[marknewton]

Great post! I knew next to nothing about 0 series cars until I read this. So I found it all very interesting.

 

All the best,

 

Mark.

[railsquid]

Anyway, I think I once again proved I have no life, but I hope it is of interest to some.

 

Talking as someone who went all the way to Osaka at the end of 2008 to catch a ride on one of the last running 0系s, I found it very informative, and it answered my question as to whether the formations mixed cars from different subtypes.

[Martijn Meerts]

The walking Shinkansen encyclopedia strikes again ;)

[E6系]

The short answer: Maintenance and economics dictated the change in window design.

[railsquid]

So why did they revert to wide windows for the 100系?

[Sacto1985]

What I find interesting about the 100 Series Shinkansen was they kept the restaurant car (and in fact designed a dual deck one!) before the 300 Series with its much faster speeds dispensed with them when they were introduced in 1992.

[brill27mcb]

I am very glad to see this detailed history. One thing I try to collect in N-gauge is models of high-speed trains of the world, and I try to get the early versions -- the ones that really made news and raised the bar. Thus I had held off from getting a Series 0 shinkansen because the models available were not the original series, at least until the latest Tomix 12-car set arrived. I am glad to understand the differences through the life of the Series 0 trains, and very glad to have had the opportunity to get the model version I wanted.

 

Rich K.

Edited November 4, 2014 by brill27mcb

[E6系]

So why did they revert to wide windows for the 100系?

 

I do not know.  But one think I can say is that the view from the older shinkansen with larger windows is far superior to the newer shinkansen, especially back in the mid 1980's when there were not so many acoustic barriers installed.

[kvp]

Not to mention the high level deck of the double deckers. Large windows and a nice view above most barriers...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/42/E4_P5_Max_Toki_316_Takasaki_20140407.JPG

 

btw: Some airplane designers are thinking about removing side windows and allowing view outside only through the seat back video screens. I really hope this won't be a design trend for trains too. I prefer panoramic windows and bay seating layouts with two side curtains per window.

http://jprail.com/img/hida/g1/02.jpg

[bikkuri bahn]

The explanation for the reverting to bigger windows in the 100 series, was customer service- the increased expense of replacing damaged windows was seen as justified in view of increasing customer satisfaction- remember, the 100 series ("grand hikari" in promos) was built with a nod to luxury, not speed (hence the double deck cars and restaurant). The 300 series was focusing on speed and energy efficiency, which is the current design philosophy.

[railsquid]

IIRC (someone more knowledgeable than myself will no doubt correct if necessary) the 300 series introduced newer lightweight construction techniques, which pretty much mandated smaller windows (and they got even smaller on the N700s).

[E6系]

I am guessing, but perhaps it has something to do with increased speeds, air pressures and window gaskets.

[kvp]

Afaik the original problem that caused window cracking was not thermal, but pressure related. The pressure difference created when entering and exiting tunnels could easily crack non reinforced windows. The same problem was discovered on many early pressurized airliners. This problem was solved by using smaller, rounder windows. The tunnel pressure problem is increasing with speed, so the faster a train gets, the worse the problem. This means by making newer trains faster, the amount of pressure the windows have to tolerate increases. So either they use stronger windows or decrease the unsupported area of each window. Both the airplane builders and the shinkansen designers opted for the smaller windows. An alternative would be to use dedicated pressure compensation systems in each tunnel or use stronger and heavier windows.