Track planning question.

[Sascha]

My Layout plan.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/10678715_1472450466362637_5921796952737509890_n.jpg?oh=4ac411031c5d0e6880e29829140d507f&oe=54CA6238&__gda__=1422282088_80d0e7f16af4a93e22146bb81d0bcd10

Blue = Shinkansen

Yellow= Above ground trains

Green= Subway (Underground) Trains.

I,m thinking about disconnecting the Shinkansen line from the yellow line since I think they are not connected to the regular train lines, but I'm not sure(couldn't find proof online, but would make sense).

Its not completely finished but pretty much the end product and I'm pretty satisfied . My layout is 8x4 (910mm x 2400 mm) but I'm seriously considering to add another foot to the length and another 6 inches to the width so I will end up wit a 9x3.5(2744mmx1066mm) board that I'm planning on separating into 3 foot (914mm) modules.

I will run 6 trains at a time, so my question is, do I need a different Powerpack for every train line, or is there a easier solution?

I will be running Kato tracks and DC (I haven't really looked into the DCC thingy, and really don't know what exactly it does),and should I change something on my layout, and why?

Thanks in advance!!!

[railsquid]

I,m thinking about disconnecting the Shinkansen line from the yellow line since I think they are not connected to the regular train lines, but I'm not sure(couldn't find proof online, but would make sense).

 

 

Shinkansen lines are standard gauge, so aren't connected with the normal 1067mm JR lines. (The Yamagata and Akita mini-shinkansen lines are an exception, as the existing lines were upgraded to standard gauge and see mixed Shinkansen/normal service usage).

 

If you're just planning on running the trains round and round, no particular need for a link (though personally I a layout which consists of unconnected parts not much fun).

[railsquid]

I will run 6 trains at a time, so my question is, do I need a different Powerpack for every train line, or is there a easier solution?

I will be running Kato tracks and DC (I haven't really looked into the DCC thingy, and really don't know what exactly it does),and should I change something on my layout, and why?

 

Looking at your track plan, you have four complete loops, which means using standard DC the most you can realistically run is four trains at a time (requiring 4 power packs / controllers). Maybe five if you run out-and-back on the subway line (but you'd have to actively control that). Theoretically you could set up a block switching system to run more trains simultaneously but how you'd manage to coordinate that with just one person and two hands is a mystery. 

[JR 500系]

Looking at your track plan, running 6 trains on DC (4 controllers) seems a little fair fetch. Can I ask if the blue shinkansen lines are overhead tracks, or are they on the same level as the yellow ground level tracks? If they're elevated that's fine, but I saw points intersecting the blue and yellow lines so I thought they might be on the same level (ground level) 

 

If they are on the same level, there's plently of intersection points and might result in collisions..

[katoftw]

Even though normal line and shinkansen lines don't normally have a link between them.  I would keep it.  As the viaduct lines could be used as regular commuter lines if you wish to do so.  Just hide the link behind buildings to similar to not make the link obvious.

 

One thing I will add in about the link is that it is too short.  You need uphill section to be 6 S248 or R282/315 sections long.  The peirs raise by first 5mm, then 15mm, 25mm, 35mm, 45mm, finally reaching 50mm.

 

Another way to hide the link to you have a storage yard for you shinkansens and commuters next to eachother, then you can easily have a litte turnout in there linking the yard.  Cleverly hidden but links the to different line together if need be.

 

Also the crossover on the shinkansen line need to be relocated.  You dont wanna be stopping trains on top of it.  Relocate it to the bottom of the loop somewhere.

Edited October 7, 2014 by katoftw

[Sascha]

Can I ask if the blue shinkansen lines are overhead tracks, or are they on the same level as the yellow ground level tracks? .

Yup. The Shinkansen is on an overhead track.

[Sascha]

Great advise as always. Thanks guys!!!

[E6系]

Hello Mr Sascha,

 

My strongest advice is to look at how other people do it.  Here's a site with some interesting layouts that you could adapt: http://www.cke1st.com/m_train2.htm

[NJHA]

I don't know much about track planning but there is something that troubles me, and, as I am having issues with my plan due to exactly the same problem i decided to warn you.

 

The problem is with clearances and grades with the connecting lines. I see the subway line connecting to the commuter line and the commuter connecting to the shinkansen line. Have you seen about clearances? The subway line comes from under the commuter line (where does the subway line ends?). As you may know the clearance is usually set to 50mm to avoid hitting viaducts, bridges,etc.

This means:

1- The commuter line is at least 50mm higher than the subway line.

2- After clearing from under the commuter line, the subway train has to climb 50mm. The space you have to do that is way to short. You will end up with a very steep incline. Are you sure you want to do this? 

 

I am having troubles with my plan exactly with this. My lines pass under each other at several places. To maintain the clearance i had to give in on the grades, getting grades near to 3%. While testing i found out that even though the trains can climb those grades, they do it with considerable effort, especially noticeable at slow speed.I don't think this is a good solution. 

[Sascha]

 

 

The problem is with clearances and grades with the connecting lines. I see the subway line connecting to the commuter line and the commuter connecting to the shinkansen line. Have you seen about clearances? The subway line comes from under the commuter line (where does the subway line ends?).

These are some great and frustrating points you bring up.The subway line is supposed to go under the baseboard, and the Shinkansen is on a viaduct. It is my first layout ever (I'm a noob at this hobby). With 8 248mm Tracks needed I guess a connection between the surface and the subway is out of a question unless I run the Track parallel to the board instead of a curve and increase the boards length by a foot. I have to re-think the connection between the Shinkansen and commuter line also.So back to the drawing board. Thanks for all the help.I see I really need it.

[NJHA]

Welcome to the club, frustration is the right word indeed. 

 

As soon as you leave the "all on the same level" plan, things start to get complicated. On paper/computer monitor it all seems great but then when you start to put the pieces up everything goes wild. 

Some of the things that i already had to face: 

 

1- I had considered 3 levels like you, and one of them under the board. But: 

a) i forgot that the board was not paper thin. My "board" is a isolation blue board that is 30mm thick. So, any train going from underground to ground level faces the 50mm climb due to the clearance and 30mm extra due to the "board". Net result: inclines going to 5%.

b) I built my baseboard on modules. My underground lines managed to hit all the legs for the table, and where they missed the legs i would have to cut the sides so much and so near the edges that the all table structure would become wobbly. Final result: underground line abandoned.

 

2-  When i decided to do everything above ground i ended up with a 0mm level, a +50mm level and a +100mm level. Result: very few level lines, most of the layout would have inclines. Inclines reached a near 3%. To make matters worse the foreground of the layout would be on a higher level relatively to the background, resulting on scenic items being hidden from the viewer.

 

3- I am now trying to balance things out. Making background at a higher level, moving the station position, trying to work it out. But its not easy. To sum things up, i have trains on the boxes waiting for the layout to be operational and all projects layout/train related were put on hold.  Now i understand why most plans don't go to far away from the basic oval.  

[railsquid]

Hah, sounds very much like the process I'm going through right now. But it's kind of fun working out possibilities. Scarm's 3D view is very useful for working out what's practical.

[macdon]

I surely could relate to NJHA's concerns and like others, I, too envisioned a subway line under my layout. In fact, I already have the V17 tracks for it.

While I havent decided yet if I'll put in a subway system or not, I do wanna share some ideas if I can.

 

1. Gradients - its always nice to see a subway being swallowed by the ground and re-appearing somewhere, however space is a tough hurdle to overcome. Achieving 2% grade means a 8 footer long incline and due to the thickness of your ground level material its possibly longer. A shorter space but higher percentage is also possible since typically a subway could only be 2-4 cars, but then again it could strain your trains.

 

2. Cleaning - one factor that has been commonly overlooked is cleaning and maintenance of tracks. Derailments could happen too. Tracks below your baseboard should have open sides so you can insert your hand to wipe the tracks or to pickup a derailed train.  A plywood cut profile of your track plan with margins on the side to connect 2" posts and connected at the bottom of your baseboard.

Another idea is to use viaducts wherein the catenary pole holes could be used for long bolts to hang it below your baseboard. This could be better than the plywood profile in an event that a train derails, it wont fall to the floor.

 

3. No grades - no space on the layout for grades but still wanting a subway line could still be constructed like the above or implementing a drawer type subway tracks wherein you pull out your subway layout just like pulling out a drawer on roller guides. Since the subway system will not go to ground level - you can elect a half in / half out subway system to enjoy your trains. Cleaning and maintenance will also be integrated using the pull out system.

 

4.  Front view only -  if the front of your layout is long enough that you just want to see a subway (and maybe a station platform as well) pass by and not dealing with a full circuit (since you cant see the back side anyway) - then perhaps a half oval or "U" design could easily be achieved.

Using an "auto-reversing" circuit will make that subway move hands-free and could even stop right on the platform.

 

Still, im sure you guys can think more ideas - maybe instead of a subway a tram could be used ........... heck, even a tomytec moving bus can achieve the above in less space! :;

 

Mardon 

[NJHA]

Hah, sounds very much like the process I'm going through right now. But it's kind of fun working out possibilities. Scarm's 3D view is very useful for working out what's practical.

True, 3d plans do help a lot, but they don't replace the actual stuff. 

On my layout, i managed to get it correctly with the levels and the near 3% grades and it seemed to be doable, even the 3d plot seemed great. It was only when i assembled the lines, set them at the correct heights and started to run trains on them that i realized the 3% grades were too much, and that the track heights were not visually pleasant and a lot of scenery was going to be hidden from view.   

[railsquid]

The process I went through so far has been:

 

- draw something up on paper to get the basics down

- sketch it out in Scarm

- lay out the tracks and adjust as I go along

 

which has resulted in a somewhat different layout to what I had in Scarm, as like you say when actually setting it up you get a much better idea of how it actually works.

 

Anyway based off that experience I'm working on Plan B, which will have multiple levels; already a bit of planning on Scarm has shown me that my preliminary sketch was way too complex and ambitious, but I've reduced it to something saner (or slightly less insane). Before I actually fix anything in place I'll be sure to make a mockup of the gradients with Kato track incline supports to check that they work.

[Sascha]

I also am planing on making modules (3 3x3.5 parts). Also forgot about the thickness of the board (that I haven't bought yet). I don't know if i want to do all the lines above ground. I have to think about that.I did plan on leaving the sides open for the subway (I do want to see the trains running). The half in,half out thing is a interesting idea.I think I do it the-buy more tracks and do something with them- way. I agree with railsquid that I also am to ambitious, but I refuse to give up that easily. In this hobby is 'Learning by doing' the best option I would say. I will start with the Shinkansen overhead track, and worry about the subway last.

Has anyone seen or used this Subway underground platform kit http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10250760 ?looks interesting.

[railsquid]

Has anyone seen or used this Subway underground platform kit http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10250760 ?looks interesting.

 

I ran into it in a store here and it caused me to start working out ways how to use it. One option (which I've seen at a model railway show here) is to embed it somewhere in the baseboard - it has a perspex roof so you can see inside from above. Not terribly realistic, but there wouldn't be much point otherwise ;)

[macdon]

I applaud all the track planning software as they make you doodle whats on your mind - seeing what is possible is always a great tool.

However, there's nothing like laying actual tracks and seeing for yourself. There are times when they do look good on paper, but ends up not so in actual. Sometimes, there's also that eureka moment where you say - "Oh heck, why didnt I think of that!"

Buy some tracks, build the basic and run some trains - from there you'll formulate more ideas which you can always confirm via track software.

 

Sascha - I actually considered that product .........or to build something similar. My station now is near the edge where I control trains and the flooring is made out of clear acrylic. I havent made any floorings for my station yet just for that opportunity. Still, im undecided.

 

Mardon 

[railsquid]

I applaud all the track planning software as they make you doodle whats on your mind - seeing what is possible is always a great tool.

However, there's nothing like laying actual tracks and seeing for yourself. There are times when they do look good on paper, but ends up not so in actual. Sometimes, there's also that eureka moment where you say - "Oh heck, why didnt I think of that!"

Buy some tracks, build the basic and run some trains - from there you'll formulate more ideas which you can always confirm via track software.

 

Exactly. The other thing I find with SCARM (haven't used any other software yet) is that it makes the track look slightly bulkier than it actually is, so laying out the SCARM design seems to result in a less "crowded" design than first appears.

 

Anyway I've just used SCARM to map out the fundamentals of my new layout plan, which has been bugging me for a few days. If I showed it as-is you'd all be like "WTF is this?" because it's full of gaps and semi-completed sets of points, but it's proved to me the basic concept will work (after some modifications) without going to the trouble of laying out the the track (some of which I don't even yet have). The details (sidings, exact position of stations etc.) will come once I start putting down the track.

Edited October 10, 2014 by railsquid

[katoftw]

I read threads like this and sometimes think to myself how the poster/s got themselves into the direction they are aiming for.

 

We were all newbies at one stage and wanted to fit as much into a layout as we possible can.  Then we realise space, time, money and ability may all hinder our success.

 

A view coming from a modeller than is probably been in the game about 18 months, (not and expert).  Is to take a step back and think about what you are trying to archive and if you can get there.  3 level layouts trying to fit into 8x3 board etc is a mamoth task for example.

 

While I'm not saying don't aim big or high.  One has to be realistic about what can and cannot be done- due to time, space, money and ability.

 

We all want a subway, a 2-4 tack commuter lines, a raised shinkansen viaduct and some trams running around.  But do we have the ability/skills to do it? The money to finish?  The time to complete? The space to fit it in?

 

I realised that my first layout cannot have all those things in it.  As a new modeller, I have a short supply of all those things.  A have a little of all.  In the future I'll have alot more of each.

 

So I decided to make a small tram/LRT layout first to trial scenery techniques, cheaper and less time consuming to complete.  Then move onto the bigger layout.  Maybe the small tram/LRT can be dropped into the middle of the bigger layout in the future.

 

Then I still have my T-Trak modules moving so slowly.  I think once I booked my Japan trip, I decided to stop all scenery stuff and await to see everything first hand before continuing.

 

So again, I'm not saying anyone shouldn't aim big or high.  But be realistic in what can be done.  For example, the 3 level 8x3 layout.  If the subway was removed.  Then the layout becomes a much easier job to complete for example.  And if a subway is required and will not be removed.  That is fine.  Just remember that time, money, space and ability are working against you.  If you accept this and fight this battle.  Kudos to the modeller.  If not, the the realistic approuch might need to be taken.

Edited October 10, 2014 by katoftw

[railsquid]

Speaking entirely for myself, I like to start off ambitious and whittle it down to the feasible. As of last night the idea for a metro line is off the table (literally); while I can see how I could fit it in, it's going to be a lot of extra construction hassle for marginal extra fun, and managing the tunnels is a big unknown. OTOH the thought process gave me a few other useful ideas.

 

Now, what I want is a reasonably complex layout with a couple of loops and lots of sidings which is fun to operate and also provides some scope for scenic expression; I'm not expecting to have something of exhibition standard, nor am I modelling anything from real life. Fortunately the wonders of Kato and Tomix track together with the accompanying structures make it suprisingly easy to set up a working layout and iteratively improve. If I was still working with the kind of track I remember from my youth, which required fixing in place and manual application of ballast, my plans would probably turn out to be over-ambitious, but after a couple of months of experimentation I've got a pretty good idea of what works and what limitations/compromises I'll need to deal with - for example, in the space available 4-car trains are pretty much the maximum, which might not be satisfying for some people but is the "cost" of some of the track complexity I desire.

 

Anyway no doubt I'll start a new thread for this rather than hijacking Sascha's :)

[NJHA]

I don't think we are hijacking Sasha's thread. 

 

We are all giving our inputs from a personal perspective and i believe this is important for others. 

I know that i started with an illusion, something big and complex. 

With ongoing trial and error i have perfected my initial plans, cut on the complexity, making something more enjoyable and less frustrating to build. 

I think i finally got it correctly last night. Tried the plan, it works. The inclines are around 2% now, dropped to just 2 levels and i just needed to reorganize a section of track. I would never see that on the computer plan. 

 

Now i can finally start to put info on my own thread also :)

[railsquid]

Out of curiosity, how big is your layout and what kind of train lengths do you plan on running on the gradients?

[NJHA]

My layout is L-shaped. It has a total of 300cm in length although i just use about 280cm length total for tracks. It is 90cm large and 120cm on the L part. Again, on the L part i don't use the full 120cm space. 

Grades are at 2% maximum. I tried to make lower grades but i would need to use more track length and would hit the station. 

Trains will be 8 cars long at most for the EMUs and 6 cars for shinkansens. 

[Sascha]

I don't mind if railsquid 'Hijacks' my thread. As I have seen on other 'Hijacked' threads, there are always interesting outcomes, even if they go a different direction, there are always new things I haven't thought about. As of right now, I also put my subway plans on hold. I don't want to abandon the idea, so I'll wait till I found a solution, so as of right now I will work on the commuter and Shinkansen lines. You make some good points Katoftw but I think everybody that is new to this hobby starts that way, and there is nothing wrong with that since nobody is perfect when he/she starts something new. Right now I'm trying things out. Yes I will get frustrated, but I will also be screaming'Eureka'' if I find a solution for something.I will surely re-design my layout a view times over, since I have new ideas every day. I think its important to be patient and don't get overwhelmed, or it will be no fun and some people will stop out of frustration and spend money for nothing.I'm planning on finishing my layout in a 2-3 of years,because I know there is a good amount of money and time involved.If I can finish it earlier than'Hurray' if later, than 'whatever' I know I will have lots of fun doing it and that I can count on people here giving me the advice I need.