Gone DCC

[Guest keio6000]

Well, i've finally done it.  Gone DCC.. sort of.   With 200+ motorized units in my collection it isn't going to happen overnight, but I have decided to take the plunge to some extent. 

 

Here's what I've gotten:

 

- 2 kato plug in decoders from nariichi-san. unfortunately he was out of stock for the tail end lighting.  starting with the plug-in decoders should be the most straightforward thing for now and i have several trains which take these.

- a train and a loco that were sold to me as being dcc decoder equipped out of storage.  i never actually ran them.  now i'll see what the story is :)

- an ECOS 50200 controller.

 

as far as I can tell, the ECOS 50200 is a very friendly controller that suits all my requirements:

 

- 5 amps to start is good

- can be connected to a PC

- has separate running and progamming out puts

- very good userinterface, at least by the standards of the industry

- works with unitrack points without much drama, according to various posts i read.

 

so, I'm excited to start playing with it.hopefully it will go well.

 

the downside was that the ecos was a bit expensive and their customer support is less than good (they basically make you post in a public forum)

 

[The Next Station Is...]

That is one awesome controller. I've seen it whilst looking for inspiration for my Arduino projects and I've got to say you probably won't feel like needing to upgrade from it anytime soon! I'm right at the other end of the spectrum with my Roco LokMaus II...

[Martijn Meerts]

I have the ECoS 50200 as well, it's relatively easy to do the basic things, and quite doable to set up somewhat more advanced stuff like routes etc. I haven't needed their support yet at all. I can recommend you go with ESU's decoders as well though, since they're very well supported on the ECoS (obviously), and it makes programming them really easy.

 

The only problems with it is that it's relatively slow (the UI that is, not the actually sending/receiving of commands), and the screen isn't the best if you're used to the newer multitouch screens. I have a couple of other digital systems as well, but I mainly use the ECoS.

[Guest keio6000]

I have the ECoS 50200 as well, it's relatively easy to do the basic things, and quite doable to set up somewhat more advanced stuff like routes etc. I haven't needed their support yet at all. I can recommend you go with ESU's decoders as well though, since they're very well supported on the ECoS (obviously), and it makes programming them really easy.

 

The only problems with it is that it's relatively slow (the UI that is, not the actually sending/receiving of commands), and the screen isn't the best if you're used to the newer multitouch screens. I have a couple of other digital systems as well, but I mainly use the ECoS.

 

actually, these were exactly the questions I had of them that their customer support blatantly ignored (not even the courtesy of a 'go read the manual' response, even though i did read the manual).   the more i dig into ESU as a company, the more concerned i get to the point where if they don't actually respond to me within a few hours on their forums (they've had two weeks) i just might return the item.  i've been digging around their wbesite all day and have gotten angrier and angrier at their pompous, unhelpful, and at times apparently illegal actions (violations of both their own terms of service and the german data protection law).  they seem to make a pretty good device, but as far as i can tell, their company is terrible, and i'm not going to give my money to them if it's going to be like that.

 

basically, i had innocently asked them if another version was in the works given that their exiting model is starting to look long in the tooth compared to existing off the shelf technologies in things such as screens and processors.  a simple question from a potential customer on an item costing over 500 euro.  When i repeated my question and problems contacting them on their forums, I was accused by regular forum visitors of potentially being a competitor spying.  Batshit crazy!

Edited October 1, 2014 by keio6000

[Martijn Meerts]

It's not common for a company to announce new products until they're close to being done. If there is a new ECoS on the way, I believe it's going to a fairly major update with possibly some new features they don't want anyone to know about just yet. Version 4 of the ECoS increased the overal speed of the device, and only a small portion of the functionality is still slow-ish (like adding a new train to the database for example) and the screen is plenty good enough for what the device does. There's not really any reason for them to release a new version if they're only going add a faster CPU and higher resolution screen because no one will buy it. Not many people upgraded from the original monochrome ECoS to the colour version, because there just weren't enough differences between the 2.

 

As for their forum, like pretty much any forum hosted by a company, it'll be filled with people who like their products and are often irrational ;)

 

 

I have had no issues with the ESU support though. If I fry a decoder (even through my own fault) I can send it back to them and they'll send me a free replacement, no questions asked. That includes their sound decoders. My only issue is that they don't really update their manual, nor their API manual for developers ..

 

I do think ESU, like Lenz, are trying to get into area's of model railroading they shouldn't get into.. ESU has started coming out with their own H0 models, and while they're very good models, I feel like their core business hasn't been progressing much. Lenz has the same issue where it feels like they've been concentrating on their 0 scale range of products. Again, they're very nice models and very affordable, but they haven't had a significant update to their decoders for a long time. Of course, one can ask what's left to update on the current generation of decoders really..

[NJHA]

 

 

I do think ESU, like Lenz, are trying to get into area's of model railroading they shouldn't get into.. ESU has started coming out with their own H0 models, and while they're very good models, I feel like their core business hasn't been progressing much. Lenz has the same issue where it feels like they've been concentrating on their 0 scale range of products. Again, they're very nice models and very affordable, but they haven't had a significant update to their decoders for a long time. Of course, one can ask what's left to update on the current generation of decoders really..

Why shouldn't they go into models? Their DCC products are mature, well-known and are sold almost based on brand alone. They now use the brand recognition to branch out and try new forms of making money. 

Lets face it, after buying a decoder you won't buy another one unless you have: 

1- Fried the original one

2- Got a new train that needs a decoder.

As for the Command stations, after getting one, you will only update or buy another if:

1- The original got damaged (and them you probably won't choose the same brand)

2- You reached the station limit and need a more powerful version.

 

So, either esu, lenz and others like them branch out and start doing models or they start losing money. 

Remember, you can do a command station from an arduino or and old computer, but you can't do a model ;)

Edited October 1, 2014 by NJHA

[Martijn Meerts]

It's fine that they get into models, but in doing so they've neglected their core business somewhat. It's not as noticeable with ESU, but Lenz has fallen behind quite a bit. The only thing they've updated decoder was that had any significance is a new firmware for their Gold Maxi decoder, and that's only because they use those in their 0-gauge models ;) Before that, they decided to get rid of their function decoder, and instead add that functionality to their more expensive silver mini+. 

 

ESU didn't need to get into doing models because a lot of manufacturers use their decoders in new models, but they did so because they thought they could do better (and functionality wise, the ESU models are very nice indeed). ESU's models are also limited production runs and they don't really get an awful lot of profit on them. Their major profit are decoders because they cost almost nothing to manufacture. Lenz went into models because the owner is a huge fan of 0-gauge, and wanted to offer a high quality and affordable range of 0-gauge products.

 

I'm also pretty sure there's more people building (or at least kit bashing) their own models than people building their own command stations :)

[Melandir]

I had the chance to try an ESU ECoS 50200, but I have discarded it at the end, too expensive for what it offer

 

I have then moved to a Roco Z21, for me a better performer in terms of functions available, and less expensive command station

 

http://www.z21.eu/en

 

we use it also at fair with the club to have the kids play with trains on the layout

Edited October 1, 2014 by Melandir

[Guest keio6000]

Well, I don't want to open up the whole can of worms on my battle with ESU and their non-support, but basically in a nutshell they have made a very very very very poor impression of themselves to me despite having what i believe to be pretty decent products.  That, and they also appear to be violating german data protection laws on their website, too. 

 

As far as a company not wanting to disclose new products, that's their right.  But to simply not respond at all to a potential customer with legitimate enquiries that's unconscionable, especially for a 'mature, well known' company at the hgh end of the price spectrum.

And I'd be rather pissed off if they suddenly announce a new one tomorrow just after i get the 50200 at retial price.

 

"There's not really any reason for them to release a new version if they're only going add a faster CPU and higher resolution screen because no one will buy it."

 

I would, for $100-$200 more.  Remember, im a new buyer, not an upgrade buyer.  I'd have gladly waited if they said "we have a new version coming out in a few months but we expect it to cost  eur 900 but it will have x y and z."   as it were, but NOT EVEN BOTHERING TO RESPOND with a "sorry, we can't answer that" or "please visit the forums", they've to me loudly told me what they think of my custom.

 

z21 looks cool, but anything for N?

Edited October 1, 2014 by keio6000

[Martijn Meerts]

A lot of companies consider it common sense not to release information about potential new products, and more often than not don't reply to any inquiries about future products. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't release any info about a new product, and if I'd get multiple mails per day asking about what's coming up, I'd stop replying to those emails as well. Might be just me though.

 

Anyway, you should pick a system you feel comfortable with, and if you're not comfortable with ESU, you should skip the ECoS. The Z21 is a nice system if you're planning on using a smartphone/tablet/pc to control the trains. You'll probably want the black version, which allows you to adjust the track voltage. (The white version sort of does as well, the track voltage depends on the voltage of the power pack you use). There should be turnout decoders for it that allow you to control the Kato/Tomix turnouts, they're usually listed as being Kato compatible, or sometimes LGB compatible considering they use the same general system.

[E6系]

Welcome to the dark side! ;)

[Guest keio6000]

A lot of companies consider it common sense not to release information about potential new products, and more often than not don't reply to any inquiries about future products. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't release any info about a new product, and if I'd get multiple mails per day asking about what's coming up, I'd stop replying to those emails as well. Might be just me though.

 

Anyway, you should pick a system you feel comfortable with, and if you're not comfortable with ESU, you should skip the ECoS. The Z21 is a nice system if you're planning on using a smartphone/tablet/pc to control the trains. You'll probably want the black version, which allows you to adjust the track voltage. (The white version sort of does as well, the track voltage depends on the voltage of the power pack you use). There should be turnout decoders for it that allow you to control the Kato/Tomix turnouts, they're usually listed as being Kato compatible, or sometimes LGB compatible considering they use the same general system.

 

the question was sandwiched between one or two other legitimate pre-sales questions that were not addresed elsewhere on their website.

 

ESU is not apple.  they can certainly at least respond to every message.  ignoring them without even a generic reply is terrible customer service.  no customer message ever deserves to be unreplied to unless it is basically racist pornography :).  my message to them was polite and clearly a pre-sales question.   you also have to remember that they solicited pre-sales questions and then negtlect to answer those they dont feel like, apparently.  on an expensive product.  as i wrote in their forums, i challenge you to find any other actual company that blatantly ignores pre-sales questions on a $$$ product.   if there are such companies, they generally dont last long.

 

i will let the ESU arrive tomorrow and maybe peek at the box and decide whether i want to return it.  my post is there on the esu forum.  as of now, ESU has not responded.  though they have responded to another post after mine.  i chose the ESU after considerable looking and actually contacted several other manufacturers ALL OF WHOM got back to me within 24h with a polite and professional reply... except ESU.  Still, i went with ESU since their product nevertheless looked best for my needs.  If it isn't, back it goes, as of right now i clearly have no love for them as a company.

 

(by the way, i uploaded a bunch of train images to their library today - many of which are japanese)

 

thanks again for the advice!  we're on the same page basically im just a little annoyed at so being abused by what is clearly a company that should be doing better/smarter.

Edited October 1, 2014 by keio6000

[Martijn Meerts]

I've only had to email them once (about 4 years ago), and it took them 3-4 days to reply to my initial email. After that they usually replied within a couple of hours. 

 

 

Of the command stations I have though, the ECoS is (by far) the easiest to use, but I'm certain the more modern ones like the Z21 are even easier. I tend to lose interest rather fast when they claim their system is revolutionary though, when it's really not ;)

[Guest keio6000]

i have been looking at the z21 site today thinking about swtiching to them and/if i switch away from the ecos.  howvever, their slick website spends a lot of time on the driver cab aspects that we dont need and not enough on the more central functions.  maybe i'll download the app to my ipad to see how it works there.

[Melandir]

i have been looking at the z21 site today thinking about swtiching to them and/if i switch away from the ecos.  howvever, their slick website spends a lot of time on the driver cab aspects that we dont need and not enough on the more central functions.  maybe i'll download the app to my ipad to see how it works there.

 

Keio

 

I have the black Z21 and I can hopefully answer your questions if you need, unfortunately the best Z21 site is the German one, you will find there some informations bits not available on other languages

 

Z21 is not better or revolutionary in terms of funcionality (it have lots ofs Buses), it does not do anything more than the ECoS, it's just more simple to use compared to the others command stations I have seen/used

 

you can also connect a MultiMaus to it if you prefer not to use your tablet/smartphone.

[Guest keio6000]

That's very very kind of you, melandir.  Will certainly keep you in mind as my investigations progress.  At this point i am not sure what a MultiMaus is (i am sure i can figure it out), so clearly i have some more research to do on my own first! 

[kvp]

A multimaus is a simple remote control like DCC controller, that can be used as a plugged in controller and as a low power standalone DCC system. It's the standard beginner unit in many startsets, so many larger units support it as an additional controller. For a max. 3 train layout without any extra accessories or automation it's usually enough.