100kei Shinkansen - Kato vs Tomix?

[railsquid]

So, I'm pretty sure I'll "need" a 100kei Shinkansen so my 0kei doesn't feel too lonely. The only question is, which model? Kato or Tomix?

 

I'm tempted to go for the Tomix, because it's slightly cheaper and only has four cars (which is the maximum I can reasonably run anyway). And because I don't have much in the way of Tomix stuff.

 

Thoughts?

[katoftw]

Both are similar.  The Tomix one you linked to doesn't have the one big Tomix selling point.  So go the cheapest.

 

But considering your layout, why any more Shinkansen?

[railsquid]

Both are similar.  The Tomix one you linked to doesn't have the one big Tomix selling point.  So go the cheapest.

 

Excuse the stupid question, but what's the selling point?

 

 

But considering your layout, why any more Shinkansen?

 

 

What a strange question... ;)

[katoftw]

power couplers

[railsquid]

(investigates) aha, I see, nice idea. (Apologies, still kind of new to this stuff). Well, as I won't be running 16-car rakes over long stretches it's probably not going to make too much of a difference.

 

Anyway, time to commit some crimes against timber.

[200系]

Railsquid,

 

I'd say it all depends on the criteria you set for yourself, i.e. do you care the more about the price, running qualities, detailing or the prototypical correctness of the model.

As you're willing to run your 100系 set as a four car formation I assume prototypical correctness is the least important factor to you (while there where four car 100系 formations (P formations) after the 16 car 100系 formations where retired in 2002 (V formations) and 2003 (G formations) forming such a formation is impossible with both mentioned Kato and Tomix sets). Not that there's anything wrong with that of course.

 

Then there's also the fact that both sets represent different real world formations:

 

The Tomix set represents either a X formation (X2~X7 (Tomix: 92286/92287/92289/92290(x3)) or a G formation (G1~G50 (Tomix: 92286/92288/92289/92290(x3)), both being JR Tōkai formations.

 

The 16 car X formations where delivered in 1986 and 1987 after test with the 100系 prototype, X0 later re designated X1 delivered in 1985, had proven satisfactory enough for J.N.R.

While the prototype had proven satisfactory, there where some visible (and a few non-visible) difference between the prototype and the X2~X7 formations, the most visible being the change from small passenger windows to larger 'picture' windows (similar to the 0系0番台 windows). The X formations where regarded as pre-production formations, though their car numbering would carry over into the G formations (with exception of the prototype, X1, which retained the familiar 9000番台 numbering). 

All X formations became property of JR Tōkai after the J.N.R. split in 1987. Retirement of the X formations commenced in 1999, while the final formations retired in 2000. All where scrapped with the exception of car 123-1 of formation X2 and 168-9001 of prototype formation X0/X1.

 

The 16 car G formations where delivered to JR Tōkai between 1988 and 1992, and represented the largest group of all the 100系 formations. They where mainly intended to replace aging 0系 cars (mainly the oldest remaining 0系0番台 cars) on the Tōkaidō shinkansen. The G formations represent the first true production 100系 formations and contained a few difference in comparison to the X formations, the most visible being the replacement of the 168形 restaurant car by a 148形 green car (effectively increasing the number of green cars from two to three: 148形, 149形100番台 and 116形 vs 149形 and 116形 on the X formations), similar to the X formations the two end cars remained trailer cars (123形/124形 respectively) while the rest of the cars (with exception of the mentioned double decks cars) remained the same. In late 1996, due to the steady delivery of new 300系 J formations to JR Tōkai (JR West only ordered nine sixteen car F formations, which where delivered between 1992 and 1993) the first G formations (G1,G2 and G6) where transferred to JR West, which eventually ended up with the seven oldest G formations (G1~G7) by the time the final 300系 J formation was delivered in 1998.

As the 100系 was still built with a limited maximum service speed (220km/h for the X and G formations, 230km/h for the V formations(on the Sanyō shinkansen only)) versus the newer 300系/500系/700系 series (all capable of 270km/h service speeds on the Tōkaidō Shinkansen, the 500系 and 700系 even faster on the Sanyō shinkansen) their availability started to become a capacity constraint on the extremely busy Tōkaidō Shinkansen. It was therefore decided to expedite the retirement of the final sixteen car 100系 formations, the final G formation being retired in September 2003. After their retirement the end cars of the seven JR West G formations and six JR Tōkai end car combos (123形/124形) had their noses removed as part donors for JR West P and V formations, the remains of the cars as well as the rest of the G formation cars where scrapped.

 

The Kato set (10-354, 10-355 and 2x 10-356) represents a JR West V formation (formation V9 to be precise), in it's 1993/1995~2002 appearance

 

The 16 car V formations (V1~V9) where delivered between 1989 and 1991 to JR West (JR West seems to have a thing for the number 9 in the first half of the 1990's, they ordered nine 100系 V formations, nine 300系 F formations and nine 500系 formations (W)). The V formations differed in a few ways from both the X and G formations, the most recognizable being the inclusion of four double decks cars as opposed to two in both the X and G formations. The double decks cars used where also from a different type then the ones used on the G formations, they included a 178形, a 179形 a 179形3100番台 and a 168形 with the 178形/179形 cars being green cars while the 168形 being a restaurant car. All single deck cars where ordinary cars, providing a 121形/126形/125形/122形 mix.

Because the four double decks cars where all trailers it was necessary for the end cars to be powered as well (hence the 121形/122形 designation) in order to keep the 12M4T power distribution. As a result every second (single decks, uneven designated) car (122形/126形) was equipped with a pantograph, similar to all the 0系 and early 200系 cars (all cars where numbered as 100系3000番台 cars). In the early 90's all pantograph equipped 100系 cars (122形/116形/ and 126形) where equipped with pantograph covers in order to further reduce noise emissions, the X and G formations receiving full covers (similar to the ones JR East used on their 200系 cars), while the V formations only got covers on the sides (similar in principal to the ones the 0系 received in the same period), however as this was done on a per car basis, it wasn't unusual to see cars with and without covers in the same formation for a very short period of time.

Since the V formations where built with a much higher service speed in mind (275km/h vs 220km/h), starting in 1990 they where equipped with a 25kv roof cable, allowing to reduce the number of raised pantographs from six to three, however during testing it was discovered that even though it was possible to attain a speed in exes of 270km/h the amount of noise generated was above the regulated noise levels, so the maximum speed was established at 230km/h. The roof cables remained though and this eventually allowed the number of raised pantographs to be reduced to two (two in service, two reserve) with the two surplus pantographs being removed (on the V formations, on the X/G they remained in place though where not used again) starting in 1992~1993.

Though originally built for 'Grand Hikari' services, the V formations where also used for normal Hikari services as well as Kodama services at the end of their service life. The first V formations (V2 and V6) where retired in 2001, the final seven V formations where retired in late 2002. The retired cars where used to form the 4 car P formations and 6 car K formations, the remaining surplus cars where scrapped.

 

Tomix also has a 6 car K formation (K51~K60( Tomix:92987 (J.N.R. revival colors) and 92823 (fresh green Kodama colors))

 

After the retirement of the V formations, JR West used the surplus cars of their V formations to form ten six car K formations (K51~K60) and twelve four car P formations (P1~P12).

The first P formations (P1~P3) where formed in 2001 using twelve surplus cars of formations V1 and V6, the end cars of formation P3 where built by mating surplus 125形/126形 cars with the nose section of a retired G formation 123形/124形 car, creating 121形5050番台 and 122形5050番台 end cars. The reason for this modification (which was used for some of the 0系 (W)R formations as well) was that there where only nine 121形3000番台 and nine 122形3000番台 cars available (All from the V formations) while JR west needed twenty-two 121形/122形 combos for the required formations, and with the 123形/124形 cars from the G formations being non powered trailer cars they weren't usable for this purpose, while there was a large surplus of 125形/126形 cars from the retired V formations.

In early 2005 all P and K formations where complete, with K51/K53/K54/K56/K58/K59/P1/P2 and P6 retaining the original (as built) end cars, while the rest gained rebuilt 5050番台 end cars.\

The first K formation (K51) was retired in late 2009, while the P formations where retired between 2010 and 2011. In 2011 three K formations (K53~K53) where repainted back into the original J.N.R. color scheme in anticipation of their upcoming retirement.

With the start of the spring 2012 timetable revision the final three K formations (and in turn the final 100系 formations in service period) where retired. The next day formation K55, as Hikari 445, had the honor of being used for the sayonara 100系 train, ending her 22 year career, and 26 years for the series (though none of the individual cars reached this number).

The 122形 car of formation K54 is retained for future preservation (last time I checked it was destined for the new JR West museum in Kyōto).

 

 

Anyway, I'm not sure if this information is useful in anyway for you (it might just be a bunch of noise if this isn't what you're looking for/interests you), but it helps provide a background to the choice you are about to make.

I'm not going to tell you which set you have to get, as this is entirely personal, but I personally would steer clear of both the Tomix and Kato 16 car formations if you aren't going to run them as full 16 car formations. Now this is just my opinion, I'm a perfectionist (full stop) especially when it comes down to prototypical correctness and I personally wouldn't run any of my trains (shinkansen or otherwise) if they aren't in the prototypical configuration for the represented formation. This is my own view though, and I know there are a lot of people in this hobby (I'd guess the large majority) who do not share the same view, and I'm not going to judge. However taking this into account, I'd personally go for Tomix:92987 or 92823 (the six car K formations) as they are the closest prototypical formations (with the exception of the P formations, but none of the manufacturers has made a model of one yet, though the mentioned Tomix 92823 set can be used to form one (it lacks the right car numbers/formation numbers though)) that confirm to the requirements you set in your opening post. An added benefit is that the mentioned sets where renewed by Tomix in 2011 and feature power couplers and other more up to date features, though at it's core it's still an updated set from the late 1980's.

 

If you do want one of your mentioned choices, I would go for the Kato set. it's slightly more detailed especially around the car ends ( I never understood why Tomix sticks with their un-prototypical movable hoods at the car ends, as opposed to the correct diaphragm/side gates setup used by Kato and MicroAce) and I'm personally a fan of Kato's first generation diaphragm coupler. It's also a smooth runner (as are almost all Kato sets) it's also a newer set. the Tomix set is basically just a reissue of the same set they've been manufacturing for close to 20 years and hasn't been updated much.

Personally I have both the 16 car Kato V formation and the 6 car Tomix K formation (J.N.R. revival scheme) and I'm very happy with both, I would love to add full X and G formations to my collection the current Tomix model just doesn't cut it in my opinion (MicroAce does make a good model of formation X0/X1 though). A P formation would be nice as well... ah it's nice to dream .

 

Anyway, I hope this information might be of interest to you, and I hope I didn't bore you to death with all the information.

 

-Sander

[railsquid]

Railsquid,

 

I'd say it all depends on the criteria you set for yourself, i.e. do you care the more about the price, running qualities, detailing or the prototypical correctness of the model.

As you're willing to run your 100系 set as a four car formation I assume prototypical correctness is the least important factor to you (while there where four car 100系 formations (P formations) after the 16 car 100系 formations where retired in 2002 (V formations) and 2003 (G formations) forming such a formation is impossible with both mentioned Kato and Tomix sets). Not that there's anything wrong with that of course.

 

Not so much "willing", more "that's all I can realistically run in the space available". To be honest, "vague plausibility" is the most I can hope for (and I'm doing this for fun mainly).

 

 

 

 

Anyway, I'm not sure if this information is useful in anyway for you (it might just be a bunch of noise if this isn't what you're looking for/interests you), but it helps provide a background to the choice you are about to make.

I'm not going to tell you which set you have to get, as this is entirely personal, but I personally would steer clear of both the Tomix and Kato 16 car formations if you aren't going to run them as full 16 car formations. Now this is just my opinion, I'm a perfectionist (full stop) especially when it comes down to prototypical correctness and I personally wouldn't run any of my trains (shinkansen or otherwise) if they aren't in the prototypical configuration for the represented formation. This is my own view though, and I know there are a lot of people in this hobby (I'd guess the large majority) who do not share the same view, and I'm not going to judge. However taking this into account, I'd personally go for Tomix:92987 or 92823 (the six car K formations) as they are the closest prototypical formations (with the exception of the P formations, but none of the manufacturers has made a model of one yet, though the mentioned Tomix 92823 set can be used to form one (it lacks the right car numbers/formation numbers though)) that confirm to the requirements you set in your opening post. An added benefit is that the mentioned sets where renewed by Tomix in 2011 and feature power couplers and other more up to date features, though at it's core it's still an updated set from the late 1980's.

 

If you do want one of your mentioned choices, I would go for the Kato set. it's slightly more detailed especially around the car ends ( I never understood why Tomix sticks with their un-prototypical movable hoods at the car ends, as opposed to the correct diaphragm/side gates setup used by Kato and MicroAce) and I'm personally a fan of Kato's first generation diaphragm coupler. It's also a smooth runner (as are almost all Kato sets) it's also a newer set. the Tomix set is basically just a reissue of the same set they've been manufacturing for close to 20 years and hasn't been updated much.

Personally I have both the 16 car Kato V formation and the 6 car Tomix K formation (J.N.R. revival scheme) and I'm very happy with both, I would love to add full X and G formations to my collection the current Tomix model just doesn't cut it in my opinion (MicroAce does make a good model of formation X0/X1 though). A P formation would be nice as well... ah it's nice to dream .

 

Anyway, I hope this information might be of interest to you, and I hope I didn't bore you to death with all the information.

 

-Sander

 

 

Many thanks for the very detailed reply, most interesting :) Like I said, it's not really too important to me whether the cars represent a real-life formation, I mean on my layout they'll be sharing some tracks with zairaisen stock as well so reality is taking a back seat (and if I do get the Kato set, rest assured I'll be using one of the double decker cars from time to time - feel free to lynch me ;) ). I'll probably stay clear of the older Tomix set though; I just wanted to avoid ending up with more cars than I can use. The 92987 set does look kind of nice.

Edited September 16, 2014 by railsquid

[railsquid]

OK, if I can get hold of one I'm going to go for the Tomix 92987 set; they're out of production.

[E6系]

OK, if I can get hold of one I'm going to go for the Tomix 92987 set; they're out of production.

 

 

:D

 

http://page15.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/t384090800

 

Contact keitaro from Loco1hobby.  I believe he offer service to buy Yahoo auction for international customers.

[railsquid]

Thanks, but I'm based in Japan so getting hold of stuff is no problem :

 

I've already located one supplier who appears to have some new stock, I might saunter in that direction tomorrow :).

 

 

[railsquid]

Mission accomplished :)

[Guest keio6000]

200kei needs to rename himself "Mr Formation" or "Formation Fetishist"

 

;)

[Spaceman Spiff]

:D

 

http://page15.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/t384090800

 

Contact keitaro from Loco1hobby.  I believe he offer service to buy Yahoo auction for international customers.

 

x2.

 

 

David is great to deal with.

 

 

Spiff

[railsquid]

I'll pass on the recommendation, but being a domestic customer : I was able to wander around Akihabara until I found what I was looking for (and a couple of things I wasn't), in IMON in case anyone's taking notes. They had two sets, one of which didn't run so well. Popondetta had a 2nd hand set but its running condition was labelled as "B" and I'd rather pop the extra couple of thousand yen for something I can be sure about.

 

Anyway that just about concludes my train-buying spree :)

[railsquid]

Meanwhile it occurred to me that I hadn't actually done anything more with this than a couple of trial runs, so got it out earlier on my now-temporary-but-to-be-permanent layout and it runs very nicely, and transits an electrically dodgy section of track (ironically from Tomix), which causes everything else to stutter briefly, with nary a pause. It does seem slightly less zesty than my Kato 0-kei set (when running both as 4-car sets), but nothing I'd want to complain about, especially given the space I have available.