Tomix 5563

[velotrain]

I'm quite interested in this unit, but have a few questions.

 

Since several of the control programs involve it throwing two turnouts, I'm thinking it likely that these need to be plugged directly into the machine, in the order you want them thrown? 

. . . taking power from what you are feeding into the 5563.

I plan to have my own control panel, so would need to split the wires from a few turnouts to provide the option of using the 5563 to power them instead. 

Would there be any problem in placing a capacitor discharge unit between the 5563 and a turnout?

 

I take it that this unit performs a rigid sequence of operations based on the program selected, and you need to ensure that this sequence is available to it. 

 

Are the sensors permanently interfaced with the track, or can they be moved independently?  The control unit seems reasonably priced (to me), but the sensors could easily add up.  I'd like to be able to relocate sensors for different programs, but wondered if that implies prying the track out of permanent trackwork? (in my case)  If yes, I would try to set it up so that the sensor track has universal railjoiners that can be slid back onto the track, allowing it to be lifted out of place and replaced with a regular straight track.  Of course, this also has implications for adjoining track sections.

 

I see the major benefit as the 5563 running one line automatically, while you control another manually.

 

If you only need a single function, such as auto-reversal on a point-to-point line with adjustable delay at the ends, there are other dedicated units that can do so more economically.  So - the 5563 only makes sense if you plan to use multiple programs on it.

 

thanks, Charles

[katoftw]

Are the sensors permanently interfaced with the track, or can they be moved independently?  The control unit seems reasonably priced (to me), but the sensors could easily add up.  I'd like to be able to relocate sensors for different programs, but wondered if that implies prying the track out of permanent trackwork? (in my case)  If yes, I would try to set it up so that the sensor track has universal railjoiners that can be slid back onto the track, allowing it to be lifted out of place and replaced with a regular straight track.  Of course, this also has implications for adjoining track sections.

I cannot help you with the unit itself.

 

But in relation to the above question.  Instead of removing the track pieces.  I would just place all the sensors in the locations you need, and use the plugs etc to connect the ones you want active.  some will be active, some will be inactive.

[kvp]

The Tomix 5563 uses Tomix TCS sensors. There are three types of this sensor, the slide in type that slides into the track from the side like power feeds and can be added or removed without removing the tracks. The other type of sensor is the clip under type, that clips under street surface and elevated tracks. These can only be removed by lifting the tracks. There are dedicated sensor tracks, that are integrated but those are bulky, look ugly and hard to move. The 5563 is a digital unit, so please don't add extra capacitors or anything into the circuit, as the rush in current of a capacitor might destory the drive transistors.

 

The best way to wire it up would be to use standard electric 2 pin connectors on a raster pcb (like the ones used for computer jumpers) as the output of your turnout control board. This way you can just unplug the turnout cables and plug them into the 5563. You can also use a quad pole, double throw switch (or mupltiple dpdt-s) to select between the manual control and the 5563. For the sensors, if you use normal tracks with ties (both the wooden and the concrete ones) you can use the slide in type of sensors, that you can move around as you want. Just make sure your scenery leaves enough space next to the tracks to add them.

 

Also, the programs can be modified creatively, since they only specifiy a sensor-turnout-motor control sequence and any track arrangement that could provide the required signals could be used. Since TCS sensors can be daisy chained, you can use a single 5563 unit to drive a longer layout or multiple 5563 units connected creatively to provide two directional automatic operation on a single track line. (the 5563-s pass each train in each direction to each other) I's easy to design new track arrangements once you translate each program into a Neumann block diagram or a flow chart.

[velotrain]

KVP - Thanks for the info, but I have some follow-up questions.

 

> The other type of sensor is the clip under type, that clips under street surface and elevated tracks. These can only be removed by lifting the tracks.

 

I take it this includes the Wide Tram Track?

 

>  The 5563 is a digital unit, so please don't add extra capacitors or anything into the circuit, as the rush in current of a capacitor might destory the drive transistors.

 

I was suggesting that my CDU's would be downstream from the 5563 - is this still an issue?  Or, simply saying that the 5563 supplants the need for a CDU?

 

> The best way to wire it up would be to use standard electric 2 pin connectors on a raster pcb (like the ones used for computer jumpers) as the output of your turnout control board. This way you can just unplug the turnout cables and plug them into the 5563.

 

I would have thought that the 5563 expected the normal Tomix turnout connectors - is this not the case?

Or - are you suggesting that there is a widely-available plug with identical characteristics?

You're certainly very knowledgeable, but tend to expect that everyone has the same electronics background that you do  ;-)

 

> You can also use a quad pole, double throw switch (or mupltiple dpdt-s) to select between the manual control and the 5563.

 

I trust you mean for each turnout?  I think it will depend on just how many scenarios I see myself using the 5563 for, and how many different tracks / turnouts are involved.

 

> Just make sure your scenery leaves enough space next to the tracks to add them.

 

Good tip - thanks.

 

> multiple 5563 units connected creatively to provide two directional automatic operation on a single track line. (the 5563-s pass each train in each direction to each other)

 

This sounds like the "holy grail" of an Enoden type operation. 

Does this include a passing station in the middle, or just two trains reversing at each end? 

Have there been previous discussions where the possibilities are described in detail?

[kvp]

>> The other type of sensor is the clip under type, that clips under street surface and elevated tracks. These can only be removed by lifting the tracks.
>I take it this includes the Wide Tram Track?

 

Yes!

>> The 5563 is a digital unit, so please don't add extra capacitors or anything into the circuit, as the rush in current of a capacitor might destory the drive transistors.
>I was suggesting that my CDU's would be downstream from the 5563 - is this still an issue? Or, simply saying that the 5563 supplants the need for a CDU?

 

Both. They are incompatible, so please make sure, that only one of them is connected to a turnout at a time. (either by moving the plug or with a selector switch)

 

>> You can also use a quad pole, double throw switch (or multiple dpdt-s) to select between the manual control and the 5563.
>I trust you mean for each turnout? I think it will depend on just how many scenarios I see myself using the 5563 for, and how many different tracks / turnouts are involved.

 

You can use a double pole, double throw switch for each turnout to select between its CDU or the 5563. A quad pole switch can be used to switch two turnouts at the same time. This is useful if you decided to use the 5563 in a fixed configuration and want to switch quickly. Otherwise moving the plugs between the outputs of the CDU board and the 5563 is easier.

 

>This sounds like the "holy grail" of an Enoden type operation.
>Does this include a passing station in the middle, or just two trains reversing at each end?

 

The 5563 does include a program for passing siding single mainline operation, but it's drawn as it's on a loop. You can cut the loop at the back and place multiple 5563's next to each other, each controlling two (isolated) halves of a single mainline and a two track passing siding. If started in synch, each 5563 will send a train first to it's left, recive one from it's right, then send the other train to it's right and one receive from it's left. End stations need one of the shuttle programs to turn all trains back and send them back onto the mainline. It's possible to make single or double track end stations.

> Have there been previous discussions where the possibilities are described in detail?

 

I've only found some info on a few japanese blogs about modular layouts, but it's very hard to read blogs with google translate only.

 

ps: If you plan to do full layout automation, it's a bit easier to get an Arduino and connect the TTL compatible TCS sensors to the programmable board. You would only need a few simple turnout driver circuits and then you will have full control. More info: http://sumidacrossing.org/MyOtherLayouts/SC/ElectricalSystems/TramController/ I would add that the TCS sensors are better than optical, since they were designed for exactly this purpose, also easier to wire and program, since they act just like two buttons wired to ground (one for each direction).

Edited September 12, 2014 by kvp

[velotrain]

As I work my way through learning about the Tomix 5563, I'll try to document as much as I can, as there appears to be precious little English-language information available.  I'm discovering that there are some flaky aspects to TCS, and a few of these are apparently random - or possibly bugs in an individual unit.

 

I've made my first video on the most simple basics of the unit and operating with Mode / Program #8.

 

https://youtu.be/v8z9DT0xfUs

 

Although I'm using trams here, there is an interesting potential application for longer trains - perhaps best suited to an exhibition layout.  This involves making very long sidings, and perhaps including a full signal system - 4 should do it.  The choice of trains is yours, but one will be in the siding while another emerges from a tunnel portal in the backboard.  It slows down and stops, occupying the empty track.  Of course - an indignity such as this would never happen to a passenger train in Japan, so this concept might require two freight trains ;-)

 

The signals change and the train in the siding pulls out.  This scenario would require some careful tuning of train and siding length, plus speed and momentum, but could be quite dramatic if done well.

 

A possible add-on is to have alternate trains on staging tracks in the back, and send them out to vary the passing parade.  It may even be possible to automate this as well.

[velotrain]

I have a request for anyone living in Japan, especially if they're involved with Japanese modeling forums.

 

Just when I thought the second 5563 was working correctly, I'm seeing some flakiness.  I don't see a need to get into specifics at this point, but have three questions for other users of this unit:

 

==>>  Do you ever observe changes/errors in operation after perhaps 10-20 minutes of usage?

 

==>>  What is the longest period of continuous operation in your personal use of it?

 

==>>  Does your unit have bugs in any specific Modes?  (Yes / No - Mode number and details not important for this) 

 

thanks, Charles

[kvp]

 

I've made my first video on the most simple basics of the unit and operating with Mode / Program #8.

I think you are clearly using mode 8 wrong. The program uses only 2 sensors and their polarity is important. Using all 4 sensors and not matching the right polarity just confuses the TCS unit. (the instructions should clarify it more clearly) In some of the modes, connecting a sensor in reverse would trigger an event meant for another sensor. Otherwise it should be reliable for longer operation as long as a proper power supply is used. (noisy mains converters or incorrect voltages could cause problems immediately, depending on mains load in the area or after the voltage regulators overheat in the TCS unit)

 

 

Although I'm using trams here, there is an interesting potential application for longer trains - perhaps best suited to an exhibition layout. 

This is the basic example suggested by Tomix. In case of passenger trains, single track station to station signalling requires this mode of operation. The passenger trains are stopped at the station platforms and you can see this exchange on many branchline cab view videos. Tomix form signals can be connected to the TCS turnout outputs to drive the signals from the TCS unit.

[mrp]

I’m not sure if I posted this before, but I found a series of videos on YouTube showing all the different modes and connections that I found quite helpful:

 

Mode 1:

Mode 2:

Mode 3:

Mode 4:

Mode 5:

Mode 6:

Mode 7:

Mode 8:

Mode 9:

Manual:

[velotrain]

I think you are clearly using mode 8 wrong. The program uses only 2 sensors and their polarity is important.

 

I realize you have a lot of knowledge about all things electrical, but you are clearly confused about Mode 8.

 

The page from the 5563 manual shows 4 sensors.

 

[kvp]

Are the 2 additional sensors in use? (in theory they could act as end stops preventing a slow stop overrun with an immediate stop) Could you test this? (or if someone can read the text on the picture, maybe it contains an explanation)

[velotrain]

Are the 2 additional sensors in use? (in theory they could act as end stops preventing a slow stop overrun with an immediate stop) Could you test this? (or if someone can read the text on the picture, maybe it contains an explanation)

 

Well, I don't see them as additional because Tomix shows them for this Mode.

 

They serve exactly as stops if the momentum setting is too high for the tram to stop before reaching the second sensor, and I have tested this.  This set-up is used in modes 1, 7 and 8, although it seems superfluous in mode 1.  It is not used when the 4 allowed sensors are needed for other functions.  My belief is that it is used in 7 and 8 to prevent a train from fouling the turnout at the end of the siding or the main line.

 

With the other modes, if momentum is set too high the train will just run off the track, unless you have a lot of coasting track beyond the stop sensor.

[velotrain]

Thanks for posting the video links MRP.  Rich K mentioned that there had been a set, but they disappeared.  My guess is that they are only found via a kanji search.

[katoftw]

Probably too late, but I was reading about this today:- http://www.kobaru.com/products/mc-01.html

 

2 power feeds. 6 sensors. 3 points, but enough juice to power 2 motor ie crossover.

[velotrain]

It looks interesting, but I wouldn't want to depend on Google translate for the manual.

 

They show a "Tram routes 2 plane intersection", but it's not clear if they provide logic to keep the two trams from colliding,

[katoftw]

2 power feeds, but power only goes to one feed at a time.  so one route is active while the other route is inactive.

 

http://www.kobaru.com/files/MeisterController.pdf

 

the whole thing seems (using "seems" loosely) basic.  there is even a training button to make you program. hit the button, do what you want your program to do manually, hit the button again, saved program.

 

then hit the replay button to run the program.

[velotrain]

The two power feeds are undoubtedly necessary for the switchback function, just as they are on the Tomix TCS mode 3.  

The system can't route power forward from "behind" a turnout, so you need a feed on the single track side of each turnout of a switchback operation.

 

It actually looks like it can handle more complex situations than the Tomix unit, but it should at that price ;-)

 

Unlike the TCS, it looks like it can handle alternating trams at a 2-track station, as well as stop at a single-track station on the loop.

 

Since it isn't pre-programmed like TCS, before I could consider it I'd need some English-language material from them to fully comprehend the possibilities and constraints.

[kvp]

 

Unlike the TCS, it looks like it can handle alternating trams at a 2-track station, as well as stop at a single-track station on the loop.

That's not easy, but doable with two TCS units. You need one unit to handle the two track switch and a second that gets the traction power from the output of the first and handles the single stop.

 

Imho a more modular and easy to program unit (like one based on an arduino) would be good for many people looking for automation systems. (a larger arduino could in theory handle 4 independent track outputs and several dozen sensors, lights and turnouts) Of course an independent computer based solution is also good, but imho one that doesn't need a computer for control (can be programmed and then disconnected from it) is better for many situations.

Edited March 30, 2015 by kvp

[E6系]

Or ...

 

You could just go for a basic DCC unit, a few occupancy detectors and the free JMRI software ....