Dumb Question about Kagayaki (Hokuriku Shinkansen)

[Shinkansenrailfan]

Hi , I'm a new member here and I'm a Singaporean. Well , an Asian brother to Japan

[JR 500系]

I would guess since it's the shinkansen service it would be included in the JR Pass, but I might be wrong as the JR Pass charges a surcharge for using Nozomi/ Mizuho services now, so if the kagayaki service is somewhat similar to the Nozomi/ Mizuho, likely it will require a surcharge as well.

 

By the way, i'm from Sillypore too! Nice to meet you!

[bikkuri bahn]

Well, you can use it on the Hayabusa, so I would call better than even odds that you will be able to use it on the Kagayaki service. JR East wants more foreign tourists to use their trains, so it would be a positive action to do so.

[Sacto1985]

Because the Kagayaki does NOT travel anywhere in JR Central territory (the Hokuriku Shinkansen line is JR East from Takasaki to Itoigawa and JR West from Itoigawa to Kanazawa), I expect the Japan Rail Pass to be valid on this train except for Gran Class seating.

 

(By the way, I thought Japan Rail Pass holders cannot use the Pass on the Nozomi and Mizuho trains--they have to pay full ticket price. That is unless there was a change in policy this year that allows Pass holders to travel on these trains if they pay a surcharge.)

Edited August 29, 2014 by Sacto1985

[Shinkansenrailfan]

I would guess since it's the shinkansen service it would be included in the JR Pass, but I might be wrong as the JR Pass charges a surcharge for using Nozomi/ Mizuho services now, so if the kagayaki service is somewhat similar to the Nozomi/ Mizuho, likely it will require a surcharge as well.

 

By the way, i'm from Sillypore too! Nice to meet you!

I guess it might be the same case as Hayabusa , and lets hope so too! Nice to meet you! Hopefully we can meet up!

 

Well, you can use it on the Hayabusa, so I would call better than even odds that you will be able to use it on the Kagayaki service. JR East wants more foreign tourists to use their trains, so it would be a positive action to do so.

Hopefully!

 

 

Because the Kagayaki does NOT travel anywhere in JR Central territory (the Hokuriku Shinkansen line is JR East from Takasaki to Itoigawa and JR West from Itoigawa to Kanazawa), I expect the Japan Rail Pass to be valid on this train except for Gran Class seating.

 

(By the way, I thought Japan Rail Pass holders cannot use the Pass on the Nozomi and Mizuho trains--they have to pay full ticket price. That is unless there was a change in policy this year that allows Pass holders to travel on these trains if they pay a surcharge.)

I don't think there was a policy change though

[JR 500系]

(By the way, I thought Japan Rail Pass holders cannot use the Pass on the Nozomi and Mizuho trains--they have to pay full ticket price. That is unless there was a change in policy this year that allows Pass holders to travel on these trains if they pay a surcharge.)

 

My Apologizes. You do have to pay FULL price using the JR Pass on Nozomi or Mizuho: http://www.japanrailpass.net/eng/en004.html

 

It says there: Important notes:

The JAPAN RAIL PASS is not valid for any seats, reserved or non-reserved, on “NOZOMI” and “MIZUHO” trains on the Tokaido, Sanyo and Kyushu Shinkansen lines. (The pass holders must take “HIKARI,” “SAKURA,” “KODAMA,” or “TSUBAME” trains.) If you use a “NOZOMI” or “MIZUHO” train, you must pay the basic fare and the limited express charge, and for a Green Car the Green Car surcharge. In addition, if you use the GranClass car of the Tohoku Shinkansen and Nagano Shinkansen, you must pay the limited express charge and the GranClass car surcharge.

 

Basic fare and limited express charge, I reckon it would equate to the Full price? Now that's expensive... According to Hyperia, a Nozomi trip from Tokyo to Kyoto (the most popular one) on the Tokaido will mean 14,110 yen at take about 140mins, while a Hikari (2nd fastest) does the same trip for FREE (covered by Rail Pass) and take 158 mins, only 18mins more than the Nozomi.

 

I wouldn't like to be paying 14,110 yen just to save 18 mins...

 

Thanks Sacto1985 for that! Guess I misunderstood, now i'm clear ~~

 

The Hayabusa is included, but riding in the Grand class will be like having to pay 13,990yen + limited express surcharge for a trip from Tokyo to Sendai...

[Sacto1985]

If I remember correctly, the Hikari train between Tokyo and Shin-Osaka usually stops at these stations: Tokyo, Shinagawa, Shin-Yokohama, sometimes Odawara, Shizuoka, Hamamatsu, Nagoya, Maibara, Kyoto and Shin-Osaka. The trains normally used are older 700 Series trainsets.

 

I do think that my suggestion that the Kagayaki train will be covered by the Japan Rail Pass is probably correct.

Edited August 30, 2014 by Sacto1985

[Shinkansenrailfan]

If I remember correctly, the Hikari train between Tokyo and Shin-Osaka usually stops at these stations: Tokyo, Shinagawa, Shin-Yokohama, sometimes Odawara, Shizuoka, Hamamatsu, Nagoya, Maibara, Kyoto and Shin-Osaka. The trains normally used are older 700 Series trainsets.

 

I do think that my suggestion that the Kagayaki train will be covered by the Japan Rail Pass is probably correct.

They have different service patterns. Certain trains stop at Toyohashi as well as Gifu-Hashima. More N700 are starting to fill up these services.

 

I have seen a few Hikari service patterns.

 

1) Stopping at all 3 stations in Tokyo, then stopping at 1 station (Toyohashi or Odawara) before going non-stop to Nagoya. Afterwards they stop at all stations to their terminal station.

 

2) Stops at all stations in Tokyo , then at stations such as Shizuoka and Hamamatsu , or Toyohashi before Nagoya , then goes non-stop to Kyoto and Shin-Osaka. Some services stop at Maibara

[westfalen]

I've had qute a few rides on N700's on Hikari and Kodama services, it might be more worthwhile if you got something different for your 14,110 yen.  My main concern with the pass ban on Nozomi services is that there seem to be getting more and more of them reducing the travel options for pass holders.

[miyakoji]

Has anyone seen figures on how many passes they sell per year? I wonder how many pass holders actually pay out for the Nozomi tickets. I would think not that many if they actually examine the timetable. How much income is this rule actually generating for the company?

[katoftw]

I dont think it is about generating income.  I think it is about saving the higher prices seats of those willing to pay for them.

 

The JR passes are highly discounted, so they are gonna give you the cheaper seats.

 

I'm very doubtful any tourist would pay 130,000+ yen to save 30ish minutes (Nozomi) travel time between Tokyo and Kyoto for example, when they can reverse a seat on another train for free (Hakari/Kodoma).

Edited September 1, 2014 by katoftw

[Shinkansenrailfan]

I've heard of passes that cover Nozomi and Mizuho.

 

1) Sanyo Area Pass : Allows rides on both Nozomi and Mizuho on the San'yo Shinkansen

 

2) JR Central Non-Reserved Pass or something : Allows Non-Reserved Seat rides on Nozomi

[katoftw]

I've heard of passes that cover Nozomi and Mizuho.

 

1) Sanyo Area Pass : Allows rides on both Nozomi and Mizuho on the San'yo Shinkansen

 

2) JR Central Non-Reserved Pass or something : Allows Non-Reserved Seat rides on Nozomi

Tokaido-Sanyo Toursit Pass.  For travel between Hakata and Tokyo for 5 days only.  Great if you wanna travel 45 minutes faster between those two.  But then you cannot use any JR East or JR Kyushu trains.  So it becomes cost prohibitive.  As you'd probably still buy a JR Pass anyway.

 

And at a cost of 35,000 yen.  At 10,000 yen more, one would probably better off just getting the JR Pass and cover the whole country.

 

I'm actually not sure why they offer it.  It really is only useful is you are in Osaka, and plan day trips to Tokyo or Hakata.  And plan to walk or bus it from Tokyo or Hakata Stations.

Edited September 1, 2014 by katoftw

[bikkuri bahn]

Pretty much echoing what katoftw said, I think it's really a matter of pricing to demand.  The Japan Rail Pass falls under the category of discount tickets, and like any such tickets (for example, discount economy class airline tickets), there will be restrictions.  The original policy of JR Tokai when introducing the Nozomi service was to guarantee a seat to business (i.e. full price) travelers on any given travel date- having discount ticket holders filling up those seats would subvert that policy.  I suppose the thinking was that the 2 Hikari services + 2 Kodama services/hour was adequate for the tourist market, and comparable to high speed rail service frequencies in Europe.  Of course, at first there were only a few Nozomi services per hour, but now there are at least 6 Nozomi/hour, essentially making it the standard service, rather than the premium one.   Perhaps JR Tokai, if it sees there is a need, may change the rules and allow, for example, rail pass holders to ride in unreserved cars on Nozomi, or permit seat reservations on off-peak Nozomi, such as departures from Tokyo and Shin-Osaka between 11am~3pm.

As for the argument some may make that the no-Nozomi rule discriminates against foreign travelers, holders of universal passes ("full-moon") intended for Japanese pensioners travelling as a couple, are also subject to the same restrictions.

[Shinkansenrailfan]

Tokaido-Sanyo Toursit Pass.  For travel between Hakata and Tokyo for 5 days only.  Great if you wanna travel 45 minutes faster between those two.  But then you cannot use any JR East or JR Kyushu trains.  So it becomes cost prohibitive.  As you'd probably still buy a JR Pass anyway.

 

And at a cost of 35,000 yen.  At 10,000 yen more, one would probably better off just getting the JR Pass and cover the whole country.

 

I'm actually not sure why they offer it.  It really is only useful is you are in Osaka, and plan day trips to Tokyo or Hakata.  And plan to walk or bus it from Tokyo or Hakata Stations.

If you want to calculate the maximum time wasted , I'm guessing it would be about 1-2 hours. The fastest Nozomi run from Tokyo - Hakata takes 4 hours 56 minutes (Nozomi 1). Using Hikari , the fastest way is to transfer to Sakura at Shin-Kobe (You don't wanna switch platforms at Shin-Osaka or continue on the Hikari to stop at all stations before Okayama). To Shin-Kobe , I'm guessing its around 3 hours 15 minutes to 3.5 hours. Waiting for the next Sakura will take a longer while , I think the average is between 15-30 minutes. Afterwards , the Sakura will taken about 2.5 hours. Total time will take around 6-6.5 hours or maybe even 7. About 2 hours.

 

But then again , most people will travel slowly to Hakata or maybe by air. The Nozomi/Mizuho fees are pretty high. Most Japanese businessmen (Who are main users of Shinkansen) can afford to ride the faster services. The half-hourly Kodama and Hikari services accommodate for tourists and those living in rural areas such a Kakegawa.

[Sacto1985]

Frankly, if you're travelling between primarily between Tokyo and Shin-Osaka (including Nagoya and Kyoto), paying full fare on the Nozomi train is not worth the money if you're a Japan Rail Pass holder. Not when the time savings are minimal at best. And the time savings may be even less if the plan to up the speed on some sections of the Tokaidō Shinkansen line to 300 km/h becomes reality, especially when the 700 Series trains are completely replaced by the N700 Series trains on the Hikari services.

[Shinkansenrailfan]

Frankly, if you're travelling between primarily between Tokyo and Shin-Osaka (including Nagoya and Kyoto), paying full fare on the Nozomi train is not worth the money if you're a Japan Rail Pass holder. Not when the time savings are minimal at best. And the time savings may be even less if the plan to up the speed on some sections of the Tokaidō Shinkansen line to 300 km/h becomes reality, especially when the 700 Series trains are completely replaced by the N700 Series trains on the Hikari services.

I remember during Spring Next Year there will be speed increases for the Tokaido Shinkansen. One train per hour will have an increase of maximum speed to 285km/h. I'm guessing the service will go to a Nozomi train because it is the fastest service. This can cause more time savings , but wont be worthwhile for the money since you will be wasting thousands of Yen.

 

I believe the 700 series still have at least up to another 7-10 years of service , seeing their launch in 1999-2000 and that they won't be retired easily by JR Central/West.

[Sacto1985]

I do think in the longer run, we may see the following for Japan Rail Pass holders:

 

All-stops trains (Kodama, Tsubame, Tanigawa, Yamabiko north of Sendai to Morioka, Nasuno, Hakutaka, and Tsurugi)--no extra charge

Limited-stop trains (Hikari, Hayate, Toki, Kagayaki, Sakura, and Asama)--no extra charge

Very limited stop trains (Nozomi, Mizuho and eventually Hayabusa)--Pass holder has to pay 50% of full ticket price

Mini-Shinkansen (Tsubasa and Komachi)--no extra charge, but reserved seating mandatory

 

Pass holders who wish to ride Gran Class on the Kagayaki train and any Hayate train with E5 trainsets will also have to pay 50% of full ticket price.

Edited September 1, 2014 by Sacto1985

[westfalen]

The compulsory reservations on the Hayabusa is another thing I'm not too keen on that I hope doesn't migrate to other Shinkansen services.  Even if there is no seat reservation charge it takes away the 'turn up and go when ever you like' advantage of having a railpass.  It is one advantage the German ICE has over the French TGV.

[katoftw]

Is the Hayabusa at near full capacity most services?  I find the only reason normally for full reservation on trains is because of running full capacity most services.

[bikkuri bahn]

The reserved seating only policy for Hayabusa comes from JR East's previous experience pre-Hayabusa of having some unreserved seating on the fastest (limited stop) services- there is a tendency for people with unreserved seating tickets to choose the fastest services over the slower ones even for shorter distance journeys, thus leaving the slower services running with many empty seats.  But the fastest services have these fully occupied unreserved seat cars that take up space on the train that instead could consist of more reserved seating cars, so people taking longer journeys (for example, Morioka to Tokyo) who typically buy reserved seats often find their desired train service sold out.  Now normally a way to alleviate this problem is to increase the number of fast services (as has been done with Nozomi services on the Tokaido Shinkansen), but unfortunately capacity constraints of the double track line from Omiya to Tokyo (shared with the Joetsu and Nagano/Hokuriku Shinkansen) create a bottleneck that prevents this.

[westfalen]

Is the Hayabusa at near full capacity most services?  I find the only reason normally for full reservation on trains is because of running full capacity most services.

Like the Westlander, you don't want to fight those six other passengers for a seat. :)

[westfalen]

The reserved seating only policy for Hayabusa comes from JR East's previous experience pre-Hayabusa of having some unreserved seating on the fastest (limited stop) services- there is a tendency for people with unreserved seating tickets to choose the fastest services over the slower ones even for shorter distance journeys, thus leaving the slower services running with many empty seats.  But the fastest services have these fully occupied unreserved seat cars that take up space on the train that instead could consist of more reserved seating cars, so people taking longer journeys (for example, Morioka to Tokyo) who typically buy reserved seats often find their desired train service sold out.  Now normally a way to alleviate this problem is to increase the number of fast services (as has been done with Nozomi services on the Tokaido Shinkansen), but unfortunately capacity constraints of the double track line from Omiya to Tokyo (shared with the Joetsu and Nagano/Hokuriku Shinkansen) create a bottleneck that prevents this.

I understand why they do it, just hope it doesn't catch on.  Extra tracks between Tokyo and Omiya should have been budgeted into the Hokuriku Shinkansen, finding room for them might be a problem but the Japanese have proved inventive in that area.

[Shinkansenrailfan]

Is the Hayabusa at near full capacity most services?  I find the only reason normally for full reservation on trains is because of running full capacity most services.

Hayabusa is pretty much the only service that goes to Shin-Aomori now. All Hayate services now terminate at Morioka.

[Sacto1985]

Is the Hayabusa at near full capacity most services?  I find the only reason normally for full reservation on trains is because of running full capacity most services.

 

Just about ALL the trains on the Tōhoku Shinkansen line are so heavily patronized that between Tokyo and Morioka, reservations are effectively mandatory. Not so sure about the less-patronized line between Morioka and Shin-Aomori, though.