Acela Leaves New York Penn Without Its Passengers

[bill937ca]

Amtrak conductor screws up.

 

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/amtrak-train-leaves-nyc-washington-dc-passengers-article-1.1890241

[Davo Dentetsu]

I don't want to generalise, but are all problems Stateside solved with pizza and Doritos?

[miyakoji]

Whether or not the snacks actually appeased anyone, I don't know. Obviously they solve nothing.

 

My main question is about the planning. It had always surprised me that the platform is not announced until a few minutes before boarding. This incident seems to suggest that it really isn't decided until that point.

Edited August 4, 2014 by miyakoji

[Guest keio6000]

Ok, let's clear up what happened, shall we?

 

- in the Amtrak system at major stations, customers are not allowed onto any platform.  Rather, they go from holding pens which are then directed onto specific platforms.  The system is to ensure that the passengers with ticket X correctly go to platform Y and to have a common entry point for security screening if necessary.   the problem is that the train was at the wrong platform due to some mixup.  The train duly left on time for reasons that are not yet entirely clear.

 

- the station manager did by all indications did what he could and gave out snacks and pizza to keep the customers happy temporarily.  contrast this to england, where they'd simply put a "delayed" or "train cancelled" notification.  

 

- nevertheless, for all of the many positive characteristics americans have, a few amongst them unfortunately stand out as the world's largest babies when they are in the consumer end of a spectrum.  thus, due to having to suffer the personal trauma, probably worse than the holocaust, or being seated on a train a little while later, some of them felt it appropriate (per the article) loudly voice their anger, take to complaining publicly over the twittershphere, and so forth.

 

it is a pity that the many good people in the USA are always tarnished by the unreasonable loudmouths there.

 

a mistake happened.  mistakes happen.  

[lurkingknight]

well in the way transit errors go, that's still a pretty big goof. I'm sure somebody will be fired over it.

 

People are entitled to be pissed off about it. They're paying customers who did not get what they paid for... a train that left on time... with them on it of course. 

 

What will make it entirely unreasonable is that some yahoo in the bunch will probably file a lawsuit against amtrak for some perceived emotional impact of missing the train and causing an event worse than the holocaust. 

 

I personally have a similar story with GO transit here in ontario canada. It was a wretched winter night and I about had it with my roommate, so I was going to spend the weekend with my grandparents in toronto. I was at school at the time in oakville and I slogged it down on foot through ankle deep snow with a bag of laundry to the train station. I got there, they announced the train to toronto (east) was not going to arrive on the regular track because of snow. So I crossed under the tunnel and by the time I got up to the platform, there was a train waiting there. I looked at my watch which matched the time of the eastbound train. I jumped on it assuming it was the eastbounder.

 

 

nope... headed west. Luckily I realized it pretty quick and got off at the stop on the other end of town... but by that time I had missed my eastbound train and the next one was not due for another 2 hours or so.. being late friday night already. Luckily I was able to call a friend and he came and drove me back to my crappy apartment with the hellish roommate. I was less than impressed, but there was really no one to direct my anger at... it was a perfect storm of miscues. The train arrived exactly at the moment I was under the tracks, and the GO train does not have signboards on the side saying where it was going, so not knowing which direction it arrived from I could only assume that the announcement over the PA that this was my train.. the GO only goes east west along the lake, so it only operates 2 tracks , you get on one or the other.

[lurkingknight]

-snip double-

Edited August 5, 2014 by lurkingknight

[marknewton]

- in the Amtrak system at major stations, customers are not allowed onto any platform.  Rather, they go from holding pens which are then directed onto specific platforms.  The system is to ensure that the passengers with ticket X correctly go to platform Y and to have a common entry point for security screening if necessary.

 

Really? I can't think of anywhere else in the civilised world that has such a "system". The biggest station on my railway has 26 platforms, and yet our barely-literate passengers manage to find their way onto the correct train. Can Amtrak passengers not read an indicator board or hear announcements on a PA?  :)

 

As for the train crew, I'm not sure how anyone can justify leaving on time if it was obvious that no-one had joined the train at that stop. And before you respond, I'm traincrew too. I've NEVER deliberately left anyone behind in 39 years on the job.

 

Cheers,

 

Mark.

Edited August 5, 2014 by marknewton

[miyakoji]

In fact they must read an indicator board; only 10 minutes or so before boarding, it finally shows you where the train is going to be.  Image of board here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:30th_Street_Station_looking_northwest.jpg

 

Further "discussion": http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=157016

Edited August 5, 2014 by miyakoji

[cteno4]

Both Amtrak and LIRR do this last minute platform posting. Amtrak its just a crunch to get into the escalator, but with LIRR it can be a stampede to the platform stairs. At busy times 2 or 3 trains pop up on the board at once and it s a frenzy as the various rushes/currents collide en route to the various platform stairs. When ever I do it I am reminded of high school track waiting in the blocks for the gun to go off!

 

Jeff

 

Ps if Amtrak is super crazy at pen pay $5 for a porter to take your bag. They know a bit in advance and take you down the elevator early and you bear the escalator crush and platform race.

 

Cheers

 

Jeff

Edited August 5, 2014 by cteno4

[Guest ___]

This is my merge post test. Let's see if it worked.

 

Really? I can't think of anywhere else in the civilised world that has such a "system". The biggest station on my railway has 26 platforms, and yet our barely-literate passengers manage to find their way onto the correct train. Can Amtrak passengers not read an indicator board or hear announcements on a PA? :)

As for the train crew, I'm not sure how anyone can justify leaving on time if it was obvious that no-one had joined the train at that stop. And before you respond, I'm traincrew too. I've NEVER deliberately left anyone behind in 39 years on the job.

Cheers,

Mark.

I agree with you on both points.

During the two trips to the US when I rode Amtrak quite a bit I got the impression the whole operation was made up on the spot as they went, they can't even allocate you a specific seat when you make a reservation. Compare Amtrak to JR where the platform a train leaves from is actually shown in the timetable, and JR's operation makes Amtrak look like a kid's trainset under a Christmas tree.

I'd be interested to know if there were any passengers at all on the train or whether is was just one group who got left behind, because like you I can't imagine the conductor leaving with no one on board at all, most of the information in the article is provided by the complaining passengers themselves.

Do the rules at Penn Station require station staff to give 'right away' as we call it?

 

well in the way transit errors go, that's still a pretty big goof. I'm sure somebody will be fired over it.


What will make it entirely unreasonable is that some yahoo in the bunch will probably file a lawsuit against amtrak for some perceived emotional impact of missing the train and causing an event worse than the holocaust.

Doubt it, most all employes of the National Railroad Passenger Corp (Amtrak) or unionized. Just shy of deliberately killing someone, or driving a train in to another train at-speed, it's nearly impossible to get fired. (Even though I've been threaten with loss of job despite the fact that I have never been employed by Amtrak)

Amtrak has 11th Amendment sovereignty and cannot be sued. One can try, and sometimes the lower courts will hear or award verdicts against Amtrak, but time and time again, the federal appellate courts overturn any said judgement against Amtrak.

 

I agree with you on both points.

During the two trips to the US when I rode Amtrak quite a bit I got the impression the whole operation was made up on the spot as they went, they can't even allocate you a specific seat when you make a reservation. Compare Amtrak to JR where the platform a train leaves from is actually shown in the timetable, and JR's operation makes Amtrak look like a kid's trainset under a Christmas tree.

I'd be interested to know if there were any passengers at all on the train or whether is was just one group who got left behind, because like you I can't imagine the conductor leaving with no one on board at all, most of the information in the article is provided by the complaining passengers themselves.

Do the rules at Penn Station require station staff to give 'right away' as we call it?

I assume ATMK 2253 originated from BOS, so it's not improbable for a conductor (or a car attendant) not to notice how many boarded or alighted at NYP. I think there should have been a tip off when 2253 AR'd at NYP that there were no pax on the platform after the firs few minutes. I believe there is a 10-15 minute station stop for SB trains at NYP. But who knows, the crew could have been having a crew time briefing, as NYP is a point for crew changes (I know Amtrak some crews board at NYP, run to DC, run back through NYP up to BOS then return to NYP and alight after when they hit (Hours of Service) HoS curfew). IDK of any RA calls from staff at NYP. I know at WAS, said RA's come from MNT platform staff.

 

Can Amtrak passengers not read an indicator board or hear announcements on a PA? :)

Six years as a NARP Ambassador at Gate G, Washingtonian Union Station, I can answer that with a clear and concise "NO" 80% of my day at the booth is people asking me where their train is, what gate, what platform, despite the fact ten feet away are two large ARDP monitors that state gate, track, time, and status of every train scheduled for WAS. Other questions include, bathroom, reservations, and bus/taxi. all this despite a huge sign that reads, "National Association of Railroad Passengers and "WE ARE NOT AMTRAK!!"

 

Really? I can't think of anywhere else in the civilised world that has such a "system". The biggest station on my railway has 26 platforms, and yet our barely-literate passengers manage to find their way onto the correct train. Can Amtrak passengers not read an indicator board or hear announcements on a PA? :)

As for the train crew, I'm not sure how anyone can justify leaving on time if it was obvious that no-one had joined the train at that stop. And before you respond, I'm traincrew too. I've NEVER deliberately left anyone behind in 39 years on the job.

Cheers,

Mark.

NYP has VERY antiquated ARDP boards, unlike anything I have seen anywhere else in the system. My last trip out of NYP recently, and they still were using curved CRT, and overhead flip boards (opposed to flip dots). Every time I walk in to NYP, I feel like I'm back in 1984. Compared to Europe and Asia, NYP is a small station in compassion, but it was built as an afterthought in MSG's basement after all. Boarding platforms feel more like a subway station, than platforms the largest city in the US. And, I would argue, that the 42nd Street Station on the A-Train is grander in nature than the main tracks serving Acela or NE Regionals.

[Guest keio6000]

Tying this back into the thread about the new design for the Yamanote trains - we all agree here that usability matters. People simply do not read, listen, etc.   This is why I am somewhat underwhelmed about the new Yamanote design which does away with broad swaths of color in favor of color basically over and on the doors only, the later of which are probably nearly invisible while the train doors are open.

 

As far as "passengers have a right to be pissed", well, I would disagree with the notion  that based on the facts of the episode that adult humans would be reacting in a reasonable and adult matter if they physically displayed their anger. This is what children do.   Clearly, a mistake was made.  It may even be incompetence - personal, professional, organizational, or otherwise.   But by all indications once the mistake was recognized and made, all immediate attempts were made to rectify the situation.  I think actual "anger" needs to be reserved for cases where there is incompetence upon incompetence, perhaps mixed with indifference and hostility.   But this is not what happened here.   I further suspect, because this is America, that if the passengers asked for their money back, they'd probably get it, too.

 

Full Disclosure:  I am involved with a company with customers in over 100 countries.  In my experience, and I feel entitled to say this since I am an American, albeit an ex-pat, American customers are by far the worst.  Not all, of course- most are wonderful people.  But the 'bad' americans are so bad that it just boggles the mind.   From the expectations of special treatment (not really requests, but demands) to utter lack of appreciation, they just take the cake.   It's a pity that those few make the others  look bad.  Yesterday, when I wrote the above post, I had just had an angry american customer forwarded to me, a senior level director, because he was one of those people who felt that if he just screamed loud enough he should get whatever he wants.  HIs case was entirely meritless--he was basically blackmailing our company, but I had to placate him anyway.  Left a really bad taste in my mouth which is still there today a bit :)

 

More generally speaking,Americans tend to have different standards for things like platform loading since they have a real "NIH" syndrome - speaking again very broadly, they don't visit the rest of the world to see how things are done, and labor costs are through the roof.   As a result, they tend to come up with some really novel and great solutions to some problems and others they completely fluff.   What, after all, is the cost of replacing a CRT monitor with a modern display?  The cost of the displays is basicallly nil. But when in practice it costs $1000 per day for a handiman and you need 9 of them by law to put one up.

Edited August 5, 2014 by keio6000

[Guest ___]

More generally speaking,Americans tend to have different standards for things like platform loading since they have a real "NIH" syndrome - speaking again very broadly, they don't visit the rest of the world to see how things are done, and labor costs are through the roof.   As a result, they tend to come up with some really novel and great solutions to some problems and others they completely fluff.   What, after all, is the cost of replacing a CRT monitor with a modern display?  The cost of the displays is basicallly nil. But when in practice it costs $1000 per day for a handiman and you need 9 of them by law to put one up.

 

When Amtrak goes to Congress and asks for 17 million dollars in 2008 to upgrade and replace the ARDP boards, gets the money, and five years later fail to show where that money goes. Amtrak's largest problem is accountability. To date, no one seems to know where the 17M went, oh right, no one ever really bothers to ask.

 

As far as "passengers have a right to be pissed", well, I would disagree with the notion  that based on the facts of the episode that adult humans would be reacting in a reasonable and adult matter if they physically displayed their anger. This is what children do.   Clearly, a mistake was made.  It may even be incompetence - personal, professional, organizational, or otherwise.   But by all indications once the mistake was recognized and made, all immediate attempts were made to rectify the situation.  I think actual "anger" needs to be reserved for cases where there is incompetence upon incompetence, perhaps mixed with indifference and hostility.   But this is not what happened here.   I further suspect, because this is America, that if the passengers asked for their money back, they'd probably get it, too.

 

Full Disclosure:  I am involved with a company with customers in over 100 countries.  In my experience, and I feel entitled to say this since I am an American, albeit an ex-pat, American customers are by far the worst.  Not all, of course- most are wonderful people.  But the 'bad' americans are so bad that it just boggles the mind.   From the expectations of special treatment (not really requests, but demands) to utter lack of appreciation, they just take the cake.   It's a pity that those few make the others  look bad.  Yesterday, when I wrote the above post, I had just had an angry american customer forwarded to me, a senior level director, because he was one of those people who felt that if he just screamed loud enough he should get whatever he wants.  HIs case was entirely meritless--he was basically blackmailing our company, but I had to placate him anyway.  Left a really bad taste in my mouth which is still there today a bit :)

 

I doubt with all the complaining cursing and screaming for their money back, won't happen. Would be lucky with a meal voucher and an Amtrak pen and tee-shirt swag.  I've seen enough people do that in Amtrak CS office and the only people with a greater sense of entitlement than the paying American public are the employees of Amtrak.

 

The corporate entitlement mentality runs rampant in Amtrak, thankfully most of the paying pax seldom get behind closed doors to see first hand, but it does show itself on occasion in the CS office or Central Ticketing. The airlines make Amtrak look like Japanese CS in comparison.

 

But, I agree whole heartily about dealing with American company personnel from my years at the Post, and in some CS related fields that I work P/T nights and weekends for travel cash. Makes me want to move to Canada. If, I could marry and get a green card for Japan, or Switzerland, I'd take it in a heartbeat. Again, all rolling back to the entitlement mentality.

Edited August 6, 2014 by Shashinka
spellcheck

[katoftw]

Do Amtrak or the station operators make the decision which platform the train goes on?

 

Alot of blame is aimed at the conductor, but how is the conductor supposed to know that passengers are on the wrong platform? He/she wasn't at the station when the platform was announced.

Edited August 6, 2014 by katoftw

[kvp]

Part of the station (including about half of the tracks) is operated by amtrak, so the error lies at the amtrak station staff. The conductor could only be blamed for not noticing that there are no passengers at the station, so people are only getting off, but noone is boarding the train. Well, he maybe noticed, but didn't really care and possibly assumed that there are really no passengers, which is for smaller stops a real possibility, but not for Penn station. On the other hand, the tower operator let the train go without checking first that the passeners have boarded. Imho the problem was caused by distributing the tasks between too many people and we had a classic 'someone else's problem' scenario. The solution would be to either centralize the control at a single person or add manadatory checks, so for a train to get a green signal, you would need positive acknowledgement from the platform staff, the conductor and the tower operator.

[katoftw]

Thanks for the insight into their operations. Makes understanding the situation much easier.

[Davo Dentetsu]

The land of the free is rather strange for being... rather unfree.  It seems that way to an outsider like me, anyway.

[Guest ___]

Part of the station (including about half of the tracks) is operated by amtrak, so the error lies at the amtrak station staff. The conductor could only be blamed for not noticing that there are no passengers at the station, so people are only getting off, but noone is boarding the train. Well, he maybe noticed, but didn't really care and possibly assumed that there are really no passengers, which is for smaller stops a real possibility, but not for Penn station. On the other hand, the tower operator let the train go without checking first that the passeners have boarded. Imho the problem was caused by distributing the tasks between too many people and we had a classic 'someone else's problem' scenario. The solution would be to either centralize the control at a single person or add manadatory checks, so for a train to get a green signal, you would need positive acknowledgement from the platform staff, the conductor and the tower operator.

 

If NYP was not a crew change stop on this run, I have to assume that the conductor, was busy with something else and didn't notice anyone boarding. But, again, I believe there was a crew change at NYP.

 

As for pax being sent to the wrong platform, I blame station personnel, and am even more curious that when the pax were staged upstairs at the platform door, that when it was opened and they stormed down to the tracks with no train present that no one in the mezzanine which is teething with Amtrak employees, not one realized there was an error. I would put the blame more on station personnel than the the train crew.

 

So, with the ball back on the station personnel, someone should have been watching the platform monitors and have seen that there is a platform full of pax w/o a train there. BUT, even more worrisome is that the gate attendant should have physically verified that the Acela was at the platform before even opening the door to stairs down to the tracks as per NYP own security protocol.

 

Train crews are not held responsible for the boarding of pax from the station, only the detraining of pax. Sure the conductor and the car attendants are responsible for helping someone physically walk from the platform to the passenger car, but as to if people get on or not, it's for the crew to be concerned with. A car attendant can call the conductor and ask why no one is boarding, but it's not a concern for the conductor to care or go any steps further, that is the station personnel's issue, not an operating crew's responsibility, and the unions are very strict on crews going beyond operating crews activity, or extension thereof.

Edited August 7, 2014 by Shashinka
moved paragraph arrangement