Which DE10 for me? Small layout planning discussion, too...

[Ken Ford]

As if I don't have enough irons in the fire...

 

I'm considering a small portable layout inspired by the Seinō Railway's limestone operations.  It would be simple, possibly a rock loader and an interchange to the mainline railway - all stuffed into a stretched APA box.  Era would be more or less current day.

 

I'm thinking that an ex-JNR DE10 would be the best locomotive for this.  There are several older threads about Kato and Tomix DE10s, but nothing recent.   My concern is that the models may have changed since the threads were made.

 

My needs are:

 

* Superior slow speed operation for switching

* Ease of DCC conversion

* Ease of adding knuckle couplers

* Appearance

 

I'm leaning Kato because, well, it's Kato.  Any downside to the Kato DE10 compared to Tomix?

 

 

Edited July 13, 2014 by Ken Ford

[Densha]

Years back I was also looking for the differences between Kato's and Tomix's DE10 (and DD51): http://www.jnsforum.com/community/topic/6626-de10-dd51/

In the end I bought neither.

 

There's also this topic about couplers, in case you want to go with anything else than the standard Arnold coupler: http://www.jnsforum.com/community/topic/3811-knuckle-couplers-for-tomix-de10s/

But weren't you doing Randen? Now already distracted? ;)

[Ken Ford]

I'm always distracted.  :)   This is a little side project I'm considering.

 

Those were two of the earlier threads I mentioned - thanks!  And on re-reading the coupler thread I noticed something that I missed the first time around - the incompatability between Tomix and Kato couplers.  The cars I would want to use are Kato, so that helps make up my mind.

[Densha]

Well they ARE compatible but only if you use the black, bulky Arnold couplers that come with both Kato and Arnold freight trains. You can optionally replace them with smaller, more prototypical couplers, but these are not compatible between Kato and Tomix. So if you fancy better looking couplers you should indeed take that in account as well.

MicroAce and Kawai/Popondetta cars are compatible with Tomix TN couplers so far I know, but I'm sure someone else can verify this.

[Ken Ford]

As I mentioned in the first post, conversion to knuckle couplers is important to me - so I think Kato wins here, at least for the freight equipment. 

 

Luckily the amount of equipment I would need is minimal - a private railway switcher (the DE10), a small fleet of limestone hoppers (Kato HOKI2500s) and some kind of mainline diesel to shuttle them on and off the layout (no idea). So long as the couplers are compatible within these I'm good.

 

If I can work in a continuous loop for the mainline, I'd probably add a rural DMU to the mix, too (a KIHA120, maybe) but the couplers on that wouldn't need to be compatible with the freight equipment.

 

Thanks!

[Ken Ford]

Nuts - I was just looking at the Kato DD13.  I wonder if that would be better for the private road switcher?

 

No, no - beyond lies madness.  A DE10 is fine.

Edited July 13, 2014 by Ken Ford

[kvp]

If I can work in a continuous loop for the mainline, I'd probably add a rural DMU to the mix, too (a KIHA120, maybe) but the couplers on that wouldn't need to be compatible with the freight equipment.

 

You don't really need a loop for the dmus, almost all japanese ones have cabs on both ends, so they can shuttle back and forth on a point to point layout. The bigger problem is the switching. If you want to do some serious switching, then you should choose a coupler system that can be remotely uncoupled. How do you plan to do the empties in, loaded out swap or the loading will happen off stage?

[Ken Ford]

This isn't fleshed out yet, but...I'm thinking this will be a simple switchback operation build into the side of a large hill or mountainside.  The single track mainline will be at the lowest level in the front (possibly a continuous loop); the private switcher will pull a few cars at a time from exchange sidings along the main up a grade into a switchback and then push them up another grade to the loader.  I'm thinking the loader will mask a hole in the scenery which allows the Hand of God to drop one piece loads into the cars.  The mainline would tunnel under both the loader and switchback.  Very, very simple with an emphasis on scenery.

 

Doing a mainline loop in a double APA would probably mean having a removable piece on the rear, so the jury is still out on that idea - i don't think I can squeak mainline freights around hidden 6" radius curves.  I like the concept of having a DMU looping occasionally on the mainline while the rock cars are being loaded, and then having a mainline train trundle in to exchange loads for more empties.  I think it could have about a fifteen minute cycle before repeating, about right for a public exhibition.

 

As I said, I'm still at the spitballing stage here.  It's an idea that's been percolating for a few weeks.

[kvp]

 

i don't think I can squeak mainline freights around hidden 6" radius curves

 

If you would be happy with an ED75 (ac electric) or ED61 (dc electric) or similar from Tomix, then it's possible. Just make sure the dmu and the freight cars could also run on R150-s. Of course it's easier to run trains on 12" curves.

[Krackel Hopper]

If you want easy DCC Conversion go Kato..

 

CaptOblivious talks about this in the DCC forum.

 

As a distant follow-up, having just completed a new-style Tomix DE10, I have to say these new ones are even harder to convert, requiring more creative frame-milling and wire-routing (even though the motor looks easy to isolate, it is in fact anything but).

 

On the other hand, recent work on a Kato DE10 with an NGDCC decoder took me 30 minutes, all of which was consumed with soldering on the necessary LEDs. Actual installation was dead simple.

[Ken Ford]

If you would be happy with an ED75 (ac electric) or ED61 (dc electric) or similar from Tomix, then it's possible. Just make sure the dmu and the freight cars could also run on R150-s. Of course it's easier to run trains on 12" curves.

 

I'm thinking that if I want a continuous run loop for the mainline, I'm either going to need to abandon the APA box or go with a pair of them (one in front with the scenery and one in back with the backside of the loop and staging, the inside of the rock tipple and a shelf for the DCC).  R150 is just too tight, I think.

 

If you want easy DCC Conversion go Kato..

 

CaptOblivious talks about this in the DCC forum.

 

That makes me feel even better about deciding to go with Kato.  :)

[Ken Ford]

A very quick xTrkCAD doodle of what I have in mind at this early point - this would be the front section if I were to do it as a loop.

 

v3.bmp

[Claude_Dreyfus]

Funnily enough, I use a Kato DE10 with a rake of Kato Hoki 2500 bogie hoppers on my layout; Kanjiyama. It is perfect for slow-speed shunting, and will easily take the knuckle coupling. Not sure about DCC; I don't use that...

[Nick_Burman]

Nuts - I was just looking at the Kato DD13.  I wonder if that would be better for the private road switcher?

 

No, no - beyond lies madness.  A DE10 is fine.

 

If you are really into the Seino Tetsudo theme, then a pair of these will be in order. Paint them chocolate brown, add DCC and you are set up...

 

Cheers NB

Edited July 13, 2014 by Nick_Burman

[Nick_Burman]

Ah yes, http://tsushima-keibendo.a.la9.jp/seino/seino.html too...

 

Cheers NB

[Ken Ford]

Funnily enough, I use a Kato DE10 with a rake of Kato Hoki 2500 bogie hoppers on my layout; Kanjiyama. It is perfect for slow-speed shunting, and will easily take the knuckle coupling. Not sure about DCC; I don't use that...

 

Actually, your thread about Kanjiyama at RMweb is one of the reasons I started looking at different Japanese operations - I think I found the Seino from a search I did from your thread.  I was trying to find modern day traffic flows that weren't unit oil or containers.

[Ken Ford]

 

If you are really into the Seino Tetsudo theme, then a pair of these will be in order. Paint them chocolate brown, add DCC and you are set up...

 

Cheers NB

 

This is more arms-length inspired by the Seino - same commodity, same concept of a private railway interchanging with the outside network, same island ;) , but that's about it.  This one would be out in the wilderness on the side of a mountain.  I'm also drawing inspiration from a lot of micros, many of them in the UK.

 

Ah yes, http://tsushima-keibendo.a.la9.jp/seino/seino.html too...

 

Cheers NB

 

Very nice - it's an appealing operation!

[Guest ___]

As if I don't have enough irons in the fire...

 

I'm considering a small portable layout inspired by the Seinō Railway's limestone operations.  It would be simple, possibly a rock loader and an interchange to the mainline railway - all stuffed into a stretched APA box.  Era would be more or less current day.

 

I'm thinking that an ex-JNR DE10 would be the best locomotive for this.  There are several older threads about Kato and Tomix DE10s, but nothing recent.   My concern is that the models may have changed since the threads were made.

 

My needs are:

 

* Superior slow speed operation for switching

* Ease of DCC conversion

* Ease of adding knuckle couplers

* Appearance

 

I'm leaning Kato because, well, it's Kato.  Any downside to the Kato DE10 compared to Tomix?

 

Personal experience with the DE10, get the  KATO.

 

I'm too tired at the moment to go in to typing out the Growly Ordeal, but let's jsut say, parts for the TOMIX are a pain in the ass to acquire if you need to get it fixed. Jeff's got free time, he can reply if he wants about it. In fact, I think it was Jeff who rebuilt my TOMIX DE10, so he knows the inside of it better than I do. But, I want nothing to do with a TOMIX worm drive ever again.

[Ken Ford]

Kato it is - I just ordered one from Nariichi-san!

[cteno4]

Yes the tomix spring worm drive sucks. Sometimes works, but usually growls and slowly eats itself... Don't know if the current tomix de10 uses the spring worm drive or not.

 

Jff

[katoftw]

DN163K4a decoder for a Kato DE10.

 

Same decoder as:-

 

ED76

EF30

ED16

ED73

ED76

EF510

EF65

EF15

EF16

EF80

EF81

DD54

 

I have a warm region Kato DE10 for my shunter.

Edited July 14, 2014 by katoftw

[Guest ___]

Yes the tomix spring worm drive sucks. Sometimes works, but usually growls and slowly eats itself... Don't know if the current tomix de10 uses the spring worm drive or not.

 

Jff

My understanding  is that it still does. Similar issue with the TOMIX release of the KiHa 40, but with a longer worm drive.

[Densha]

Yes, I have a Tomix KiHa 40 as well and it growls terribly. I've still not been able to find the cause though. It seems to have something to do with power pick-up as well but at some point I stopped looking for a cause and now it's sitting in a closet... gotta find a solution sometime.

[katoftw]

 

Yes, I have a Tomix KiHa 40 as well and it growls terribly. I've still not been able to find the cause though. It seems to have something to do with power pick-up as well but at some point I stopped looking for a cause and now it's sitting in a closet... gotta find a solution sometime.

Ear plugs will stop the growling.

[Claude_Dreyfus]

Interesting comments regarding the Tomix KiHa 40. My example (see signature picture) is a little noisy, but runs quite smoothly and reliably. Sadly my brown Tomix DE10, one of my first Japanese models, isn't so great.