Adapting commercial catenary products for Japanese trams?

[Ken Ford]

A lot of my modeling is US outline traction in O scale, specifically the Chicago, Aurora and Elgin interurban, the related Aurora, Elgin and Fox River line and Chicago Surface Lines streetcars. Because of this, I'm used to working with overhead wire - and the lack of same is jarring to me.

 

I'm starting to experiment with N scale catenary for my Randen interests. I've jigged up something for producing catenary segments out of wire, but I'd also like to look at the commercial catenary products like Sommerfeldt and Vollimer. I don't think I'll use the wire for actual power transmission but I would like to have the pans actually run on the wire. Keeping the wire dead would allow me to use lighter springs thereby decreasing wire deflection.

 

I've noticed some of what the Randen runs is plain wire, but there seems to be a fair amount of lightweight catenary too and I'd like to see how well I can reproduce this. If all else fails, I'll just do plain wire.

 

Has anyone here done much with overhead catenary and trams? I'd love to hear about other people's experiences so I only make new mistakes. ;-)

Edited June 20, 2014 by Ken Ford

[Nick_Burman]

Ken,

 

I think you'll have to ditch your previous modelling paradigms and start afresh... Having OHW is one thing and is quite feasible, making those Z-bow collectors (as used on Randen cars) run under it is another and quite impossible, as they are designed just to look pretty. Unless you replace them with Sommerfeldt pantographs...

 

Cheers NB

[Ken Ford]

I should have mentioned that here, I did in another thread - this would be contingent on my being able to successfully install Sommerfeldt 969 pans on the cars. They aren't 100% accurate for the Randen, but they would be functional.

[katoftw]

Really? After banging on about MUing 100% prototypically correct, now you are gonna use non prototypical pans and catenaries.

Edited June 20, 2014 by katoftw

[Ken Ford]

Where did that come from - did someone cut you off in traffic? Let's put it this way - would you run a Shinkansen with Series 0 power cars and E7 intermediate cars? Not wanting to run trams together that can't MU is no different which is the subject of my research. Using a commercially available pantograph is no different than using Code 80 or even Code 55 rail in N - it's a matter of practicality.

 

And to the comment in your original post before editing - I doubt the plastic $6 a bag Japanese components can handle the tension of wire.

Edited June 20, 2014 by Ken Ford

[katoftw]

I dont understand what you typed. But it is your project, and you can do what you want.

[Nick_Burman]

I should have mentioned that here, I did in another thread - this would be contingent on my being able to successfully install Sommerfeldt 969 pans on the cars. They aren't 100% accurate for the Randen, but they would be functional.

 

Ken, IMHO...don't bother about it, it will just help ruining the looks of the cars (personal experience). Just hang fake OHW and use the stock bow collectors under it (keep about 1mm spacing between the shoe and the wire). If you want to go one step better, try and see if you can't find Ginga Mokei OHW - these are photoetched catenary wires, much finer than Sommerfeldt wire and with span lengths designed to suit Kato or Tomix track. The catch is that the sheets aren't all that cheap and also not very easy to find.

 

Cheers NB

[Ken Ford]

Not worth it...

Edited June 20, 2014 by Ken Ford

[Ken Ford]

Ken, IMHO...don't bother about it, it will just help ruining the looks of the cars (personal experience). Just hang fake OHW and use the stock bow collectors under it (keep about 1mm spacing between the shoe and the wire). If you want to go one step better, try and see if you can't find Ginga Mokei OHW - these are photoetched catenary wires, much finer than Sommerfeldt wire and with span lengths designed to suit Kato or Tomix track. The catch is that the sheets aren't all that cheap and also not very easy to find.

 

Cheers NB

Nick, it might well come to this. I'd like to try actual contact wire first, though - there's a small but active group of N scale traction modelers that have been doing it for years, but mostly for heavy mainline electrification. I have a trailer Mobo621 incoming that I will probably use as a test mule for the Sommerfeldt pan.

 

What was it about the replacement pans that you found objectionable? The size? (I've only been working from product pictures, the pans I ordered aren't here yet.)

[Nick_Burman]

Nick, it might well come to this. I'd like to try actual contact wire first, though - there's a small but active group of N scale traction modelers that have been doing it for years, but mostly for heavy mainline electrification. I have a trailer Mobo621 incoming that I will probably use as a test mule for the Sommerfeldt pan.

 

What was it about the replacement pans that you found objectionable? The size? (I've only been working from product pictures, the pans I ordered aren't here yet.)

 

I find the Sommerfeldt pans very coarse when compared with the pans supplied with Japanese model trains. Plus the fact that a pan on top of a Randen tram would look weird...most of the cars have bow collectors and only very recently these have started being replaced by single arm pans. But then, it's your pike...

 

I used to think just like you when I entered Japanese N scale modelling...with the passing of time I came round to changing towards the Japanese system of suggesting OHW, for several reasons, firstly the fact that even the thinnest OHW wire available on the market is still grossly out of scale (maybe the day when scientists learn how to manufacture and work synthetic spider silk this will be remedied...) and secondly because "omitting" the OHW means that I'll still have access to track for cleaning, maintenance, etc... without having to fidget with the risk of breaking or demolishing everything.

 

 

Cheers NB

[Ken Ford]

I just picked my Mobo621 up from the post office.  Looking at the bow collector on this tram, I see where you are coming from.  Photos didn't do much to prepare me for just how *tiny* this tram is and how delicate the etched bow collector Modemo supplies is.  It's much more delicate than the plastic Kato pans on my Portram and EF200.

 

I will take your comments to heart and give serious thought to doing this the Japanese way with suggested overhead.  I'll still tinker with wire, but the shock of moving from O to N is breathtaking!  I think I'll try a diorama with and without OHW and see how it looks to the naked eye - I have a feeling photos are too cruel.

 

Thanks, Nick!

[cteno4]

Ken,

 

I think you will find that n scale will be fun in that you can play with the mind's eye a lot whereas with O scale things are so large the mind wants al the detail there. It makes you look at things differently than a plain miniature, its more about setting the scene just right with just the right details to get the viewer to fill in the rest with their own memories or impressions. This can be very powerful and super fun to play with. I know you are a hardcore prototype person, but you may find this more perceived scenery/detail approach very fun and a new challenge. N is really hard to get anywhere the detail of O. Always been jealous of the detail you can do in O, but that can bite you as well. Enjoy!

 

Cheers,

 

Jeff

[Nick_Burman]

I just picked my Mobo621 up from the post office.  Looking at the bow collector on this tram, I see where you are coming from.  Photos didn't do much to prepare me for just how *tiny* this tram is and how delicate the etched bow collector Modemo supplies is.  It's much more delicate than the plastic Kato pans on my Portram and EF200.

 

I will take your comments to heart and give serious thought to doing this the Japanese way with suggested overhead.  I'll still tinker with wire, but the shock of moving from O to N is breathtaking!  I think I'll try a diorama with and without OHW and see how it looks to the naked eye - I have a feeling photos are too cruel.

 

Thanks, Nick!

 

Ken,

 

I'm glad my thoughts were of service to you. Continuing from Jeff's thoughts, trying to tackle N scale using O scale standards is like having a map of the USA and expecting to be able to see all the streets of, say, downtown Washington D.C. - sorry, no way, in the scale of an map covering the whole of the USA, Washington will be at best a large blob in the map, maybe surrounded by a polygon representing the greater D.C. urban conurbation. In cartography this is called "cartographic abstraction". Likewise, working in N scale you'll have to abstract a ton of things that in O scale you would have taken for granted (full NBW detail on a trolley car, for instance). It takes a while to get used to, but working with N scale has it rewards - again, like Jeff said, it allows you to work with the "big picture" while leaving the smaller details to the mind of the viewer. However it doesn't mean that you can't improve the scale aspect of N scale - in my case, I've been converting my freight cars (and some passenger trailers) to Fox Valley wheelsets and most of my equipment has received (or will receive) M-T Z scale couplers.

 

 

Cheers NB

Edited June 21, 2014 by Nick_Burman

[Nick_Burman]

I will take your comments to heart and give serious thought to doing this the Japanese way with suggested overhead.  I'll still tinker with wire, but the shock of moving from O to N is breathtaking!  I think I'll try a diorama with and without OHW and see how it looks to the naked eye - I have a feeling photos are too cruel.

 

Thanks, Nick!

 

Oh yes, forgot to say...it isn't because you are going to suggest the presence of OHW that you should skip the rules governing the laying out of the OHW system - the distance between catenary poles on curves should be shorter than on straights, don't forget to simulate the pull-off poles in the middle of the curves and watch that zig-zag on the OHW...

 

 

Cheers NB

[velotrain]

Oh yes, forgot to say...it isn't because you are going to suggest the presence of OHW that you should skip the rules governing the laying out of the OHW system - the distance between catenary poles on curves should be shorter than on straights, don't forget to simulate the pull-off poles in the middle of the curves and watch that zig-zag on the OHW...

 

 

Cheers NB

 

I have a question related to this.  I just started with UniTram - but am operationally delayed as there's a gearing problem with the Portram I got with my start-set, and I'm not about to take it apart.  I noticed that there are far too few poles, and the positioning needs to be improved for realistic appearance.  I did order additional poles to try to improve things.

 

Related to Nick's above comment, is anyone modeling to this level of detail, and if so are there any photos posted online?

 

I've also noticed comments about the difficulties of track cleaning (on Quinntopia as well as here), so wondered why track cleaning cars aren't used?

 

thanks, Charles

[kvp]

 

Oh yes, forgot to say...it isn't because you are going to suggest the presence of OHW that you should skip the rules governing the laying out of the OHW system - the distance between catenary poles on curves should be shorter than on straights, don't forget to simulate the pull-off poles in the middle of the curves and watch that zig-zag on the OHW.

This completly depends on the type of system in use. With pole collectors, you can be more lazy in the corners and don't have to zig-zag. Also, many built up places mount catenary on buildings instead of poles, so there are absolutely no poles on the street. Hunging catenary from street light poles with hooks and cross wires is also a classical and hard to see way. This method also takes care of any zig-zagging by mounting the drop wires in a zig zag pattern on the cross wires. As far as i see, the Toden Arakawa line uses all of these tricks that make the catenary less visible and also much cheaper to maintain. The net effect for N scale is that if you don't actually model the wires themselves, then you don't really have to add anything to the layout, except a few tiny hooks and insulators on buildings and street lights.

 

I've also noticed comments about the difficulties of track cleaning (on Quinntopia as well as here), so wondered why track cleaning cars aren't used?

 

With tracks that are embedded into the street, you need track cleaning cars that are only cleaning the rails and not the pavement between them. Most products (including the tomix car) have a big cleaning surface that is kept from reaching the rails by the pavement and while doing so, the car grinds down any markings or other paint from the road surface. What is needed is a car that has cleaning wheels that are always above the rails. In Z scale, there was a maerklin cleaning railcar that did this exactly, but it had such a low efficiency that it was abandoned. The replacement car has a single cleaning pad on it and is completly unusable for street tracks that are filled in.

 

My idea for a working tram track cleaning car would be to have two tiny cleaning pads that are mounted between the wheels of a single bogie. This would work, but i think the pads would have to be cleaned so often, that it's easier to just clean by hand. An alternative solution would be wheels with cleaning pads instead of traction tires, which is very similar to the abandoned maerklin idea.

[velotrain]

Thanks for the info KVP.  I'm new to tram modeling, and don't understand what you mean by zig-zag in this case.  I did look at Google images for the Toden Arakawa line, but didn't really see examples of the wires being hung off buildings, etc.  I did find two very interesting images, one with this text, "A walk along the Arakawa line plunges the curious urban explorer into a maze of backstreets and old wooden houses."

 

I'm still wondering if there are any photos of layouts where modelers have modified / added to the default Kato poles?

 

So - just what do N-scale tram modelers use to clean the rails?

 

Charles

[kvp]

 

and don't understand what you mean by zig-zag in this case.

With pantographs or bow collectors, you can't string the wire in a straight line, because that would pretty quickly cut a channel into the pantograph. So instead of that, the practice is to have the contact wire move around the center of the track in a zig-zag pattern to have a more even wear on the pantographs. This can be done by having different lengths in the horizontal arms of the poles or by mounting the dropper wires at different positions on the horizontal arm or the cross street wire.

 

 

 but didn't really see examples of the wires being hung off buildings, etc.  

It usually happens around built up areas with narrow streets. In Japan this is not really used, since it's not too quake proof, but i've seen examples, just have to find a few pictures. On the other hand, the use of cross street catenary wires hung from multi use poles (catenary/lighting/electricity) is very common.

 

Do you see any dedicated catenary poles on this picture?

http://i471.photobucket.com/albums/rr79/endykw/TokyoTram-TodenArakawaLine_03.jpg

(you can see the little white isolators on the wires coming off from the power/traffic lights poles)

 

 

So - just what do N-scale tram modelers use to clean the rails?

Finger, finger with a soft cloth, wooden sticks, wooden sticks with tiny pads or a soft cloth on them. Anything that can scrape the rails without damaging the road surface around them.

[velotrain]

 

> "Do you see any dedicated catenary poles on this picture?

http://i471.photobucket.com/albums/rr79/endykw/TokyoTram-TodenArakawaLine_03.jpg

(you can see the little white isolators on the wires coming off from the power/traffic lights poles)"

 

Bad example - as far as I can tell, the poles supporting the trolley line are out of the photo frame to the left and the right.  If you follow the curve of the actual catenary wire (vs. the contact wire), the bottom of it's "drop" is just ahead of the pantograph, while it is still rising on the right end of the photo.  I see zero connections between the tram wiring and any of the poles on the side of the street.

 

I'm not saying that there are necessarily purpose-installed catenary poles here, but this photo does not include any of the structure related to the tram wire, so we have no way of knowing just what is supporting it.

[kvp]

Same place, bigger picture, same cable supported catenary:

http://mallorea.student.utwente.nl/~jorg/Photos/Japan/Post31/Tokyo/IMG_9502.JPG

and again from another time and angle:

http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/05/e9/5c/35/caption.jpg

Those little white dots are the insulators on the suspension wires...

 

If this is not enough, just check the place in street view (this crossing is near Hongo Dori, Kita, Tokyo, Japan).

Btw, on street running sections this line doesn't use catenary wires, just single contact wire with cross wire suspension.

[velotrain]

OK - I can see the connections now.  The initial photo appears to show a "drooping" wire directly above the contact wire, so I took it to be a catenary wire.  With the new photos I can see the cross wires.

 

 

 

I'm still interested in an answer to my original question:

 

 

 

> Related to Nick's above comment, is anyone modeling to this level of detail, and if so are there any photos posted online?

 

 

 

Or - should I take the lack of response to indicate that the answer is no, including Nick himself?

 

 

 

Charles

 

[Ken Ford]

I did mock up a few ideas for N scale overhead and supporting wires using the finest magnet wire I had lying around. (Anything heavier looked massive.). Once I did, I realized I could barely see it when placed in context against scenery and structures. I'm still wrestling with what to do, but full wire is almost certainly off the table for me.

[velotrain]

I have no intent of messing with wires, but did find Nick's comment interesting:

 

> "Oh yes, forgot to say...it isn't because you are going to suggest the presence of OHW that you should skip the rules governing the laying out of the OHW system - the distance between catenary poles on curves should be shorter than on straights, don't forget to simulate the pull-off poles in the middle of the curves and watch that zig-zag on the OHW... "

 

However, without the actual wire, I don't know just how he plans to suggest the zig-zag  ;-)

 

I was initially reacting to the paucity of poles in the Kato start-set, and considering what I might do to address it.  I realize that each modeler will have varying levels of detail for what they find acceptable, and I'm just thinking about what that might be for me - I tend to be a "look and feel" sort of guy.  I also think Allen McClelland got  it right with his concept of "good enough".

[Nick_Burman]

However, without the actual wire, I don't know just how he plans to suggest the zig-zag  ;-)

 

 

Easy - mentally!   The zig-zag I referred to was on the curves, what I meant was that when placing posts on curved trackage, bring them closer together so the (hypothetical) zig-zag path of the wire will remain under the pantograph shoe. A few posts with insulators hung on the side of the pole will also go a long way towards suggesting pull-offs.

 

Alas, I used to have LOTS of pictures of such kind of modelling, but my external HD failed and the images went to the dogs...

 

 

Cheers NB