DCC Decoder project - Kato C62 "Hokkaido" steam loco

[gavino200]

I didn't realise you had that version of the C62, sorry.

Thanks. No big deal. 

[gavino200]

Gavin,

 

Did you get it going?

 

inobu

I've been busy on a presentation for work. Planning on getting some wire today and picking up the hokkaido project again. I think I can do it.

[gavino200]

It took me a long while to get back to the Hokkaido project. I wired it and was able to pass the wires from the engine to the tender with much difficulty. Unfortunately it doesn't work. 

 

The engine is currently a scenery item. It's an "old loco on display" in a park. I may try again to get it working in the future if I have time. If I do I'll post pics and a write up. 

 

Thanks everyone for your help and suggestions. 

[katoftw]

Use a K3D3 or DN123K3 decoders and be done with it.  Fits in the boiler and I just googled it and their is info online about fitment.

[loulasalle]

 

Has any one successfully converted one of these loco"s? I wish that i had the skill, and more importantly the confidence to convert my new C 62

[gavino200]

Thinking of picking up this old project again. The engine has been sitting on our layout for a couple of years now as a scenery piece. I took it apart today. Everything mechanical still works. 

 

Before I commit to getting into this again, I have a question. Is it possible to get smaller electrical wires than the ones that come with the decoder. What is the smallest gauge wire that will work with these motors?

 

Also, I've never bought an LED before. I used to just take them off the DC boards that the locos came with. I've noticed that the newer decoders come with minuscule LEDs rather than the old ones that look like a little blob of plastic. Anyone know where I can buy one of these with wires attached?

[cteno4]

Gavin,

 

30g is probably the smallest you would want to go is probably 30g as its good for about 3/4 amp for chasis (short) wiring. will give a little resistance though.

 

the tiny leds you are talking about are smd leds. these are surface mount diodes and go from ultra tiny at like 1mm size (0402) ut to 2-3 of mm in size (1210 etc). you can find a lot of them on ebay that come with leads attached with either magnet wire or very fine plastic insulated wires. magnet wire can be bent to fit in tight places and such but if pretty fragile to break or nick the insulation which is just clear lacquer on the wire. also stripping the lacquer is delicate.

 

heres a few sources on ebay. ledbaron is a good quality shop with lots.

 

http://stores.ebay.com/ledbaron/WEISS-WHITE-/_i.html?_nkw=wire&submit=Search&_fsub=4334379&_sid=67795515

 

also lots of chinese sellers as well now cheaper and ive found the quality to be pretty good and can get them for like $2-3 for 20 if i lurk auctions.

 

http://stores.ebay.com/BluestoneCA/Toys-Hobbies-/_i.html?_dmd=1&_nkw=led&_fsub=10788909017

http://stores.ebay.com/tangtangbuy002?_dmd=1&_nkw=smd+led

http://stores.ebay.com/magnets365?_dmd=2&_nkw=smd+led

 

search smd led wired or leads

 

the white is usually bright white (bluer colder) or warm white (more like incandescent). sometimes will fine a sunny/golden white as well.

 

all these regular smd leds are 20ma just like the old 3 and 5mm bulb type of leds you were referring to and will need a resistor to cut the current depending on what you are putting out on the decoder. you can also get tiny smd resistors as well that can take up less space than a regular resistor. the 1206 size are big enough to not be pretty easy to solder but take up small space. just solder leads to both ends and put a hunk of heat shrink over the whole thing.

 

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=smd+resistor&_sop=15&_oac=1&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR3.TRC1.A0.H0.Xsmd+resistor+1206.TRS0&_nkw=smd+resistor+1206&_sacat=0

 

you can wire your own smd leds (they are like 100 for a buck or two) but it takes some skill and practice to wire them. ive done a bunch but am tired of soldering them now days as i can get them for like 5-10 cents each wired so saves time!

 

cheers

 

jeff

[gavino200]

Gavin,

 

30g is probably the smallest you would want to go is probably 30g as its good for about 3/4 amp for chasis (short) wiring. will give a little resistance though.

 

the tiny leds you are talking about are smd leds. these are surface mount diodes and go from ultra tiny at like 1mm size (0402) ut to 2-3 of mm in size (1210 etc). you can find a lot of them on ebay that come with leads attached with either magnet wire or very fine plastic insulated wires. magnet wire can be bent to fit in tight places and such but if pretty fragile to break or nick the insulation which is just clear lacquer on the wire. also stripping the lacquer is delicate.

 

heres a few sources on ebay. ledbaron is a good quality shop with lots.

 

http://stores.ebay.com/ledbaron/WEISS-WHITE-/_i.html?_nkw=wire&submit=Search&_fsub=4334379&_sid=67795515

 

also lots of chinese sellers as well now cheaper and ive found the quality to be pretty good and can get them for like $2-3 for 20 if i lurk auctions.

 

http://stores.ebay.com/BluestoneCA/Toys-Hobbies-/_i.html?_dmd=1&_nkw=led&_fsub=10788909017

http://stores.ebay.com/tangtangbuy002?_dmd=1&_nkw=smd+led

http://stores.ebay.com/magnets365?_dmd=2&_nkw=smd+led

 

search smd led wired or leads

 

the white is usually bright white (bluer colder) or warm white (more like incandescent). sometimes will fine a sunny/golden white as well.

 

all these regular smd leds are 20ma just like the old 3 and 5mm bulb type of leds you were referring to and will need a resistor to cut the current depending on what you are putting out on the decoder. you can also get tiny smd resistors as well that can take up less space than a regular resistor. the 1206 size are big enough to not be pretty easy to solder but take up small space. just solder leads to both ends and put a hunk of heat shrink over the whole thing.

 

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=smd+resistor&_sop=15&_oac=1&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR3.TRC1.A0.H0.Xsmd+resistor+1206.TRS0&_nkw=smd+resistor+1206&_sacat=0

 

you can wire your own smd leds (they are like 100 for a buck or two) but it takes some skill and practice to wire them. ive done a bunch but am tired of soldering them now days as i can get them for like 5-10 cents each wired so saves time!

 

cheers

 

jeff

 

Thanks. Magnet wire is what I was looking for. It looks like that's what's used on my Bachmann J-Class (pretty but mediocre engine), to connect the tender with the engine. It looks a good bit smaller and easier to pass through tight spaces than regular plastic coated fine wire. I'm going to buy a spool.

 

Those LEDs are great. I also like the n scale street lamps. I want to add those to my layout at a later phase.

 

For now I'm going to just wire the engine. I'm planning on keeping the wires long and labeled. I'm also going to test the how it runs DC before connecting up to a decoder. If I get that far, routing wire to the tender and connecting the decoder is fairly easy. 

 

If I'm going to go to this much trouble, I might experiment with making this my first attempt at sound. 

 

While I know very little about trains, my soldering skills are good. I spent a summer as a kid working as a solder monkey in an electronics factory. For some reason I've always really enjoyed soldering.

 

BTW, I check the motor with a 9V battery. Is that OK or too much juice?

Edited January 2, 2017 by gavino200

[Martijn Meerts]

I use magnet wire for lights and connecting the anodes of LEDs in cab cars with white and red LEDs. I wouldn't use it for power pickup or connecting the motor unless absolutely necessary, the wire is really thin and can't handle all that much current. A short might burn the wires. Never had it happen myself, but I have had a short cause a decoder to catch fire.

 

Stripping them is not too bad, I usually just set my soldering station to 450 degrees celsius, and that'll burn the lacquer off easily. I pre-tin them that way as well.

[gavino200]

I use magnet wire for lights and connecting the anodes of LEDs in cab cars with white and red LEDs. I wouldn't use it for power pickup or connecting the motor unless absolutely necessary, the wire is really thin and can't handle all that much current. A short might burn the wires. Never had it happen myself, but I have had a short cause a decoder to catch fire.

 

Stripping them is not too bad, I usually just set my soldering station to 450 degrees celsius, and that'll burn the lacquer off easily. I pre-tin them that way as well.

 

Thanks. On re-read I see that Jeff was just suggesting magnet for the lights, and 30g wire for the power pickup. Rookie question - what would be the difference between using 30g regular wire and 30g magnet wire?

 

I talked with my local train guy this evening. He suggested that I could cut down on diameter by striping the plastic off at critical points and add paint for some insulation.

 

He also suggested using a dremel to make a shallow channel on the inside of the engine's plastic casing to allow for passage of wires. I like this idea.

Edited January 3, 2017 by gavino200

[Kiha66]

Magnet wire usually has a very thin enamel coating for insulation, as it is designed for electrical insulation at low amperage only and not for wear resistance (ie. the wire is not expected to move) or the heat generated by power transfer.  Regular wire usually has a thicker plastic insulation, and is rated for higher amperage (or milliamps in this case) and can resist wear much better.  

[Martijn Meerts]

You need to be very careful when using a dremel on the plastic shell, it melts really easily. If anything, I'd try making a channel in the metal frame of the locomotive is possible.

 

I don't have a Kato C62 myself, but I have installed a decoder in a Kato D51-498, which didn't require much modifications, definitely no milling out channels. The regular decoder wires worked fine for both the motor and power pickups.

[gavino200]

You need to be very careful when using a dremel on the plastic shell, it melts really easily. If anything, I'd try making a channel in the metal frame of the locomotive is possible.

 

I don't have a Kato C62 myself, but I have installed a decoder in a Kato D51-498, which didn't require much modifications, definitely no milling out channels. The regular decoder wires worked fine for both the motor and power pickups.

Thanks. I hadn't considered cutting a channel in the metal frame, but that should be fairly doable. If I have to cut a channel in the plastic shell, I'll used a hand file or a blade, instead of power.

Edited January 3, 2017 by gavino200

[gavino200]

Magnet wire usually has a very thin enamel coating for insulation, as it is designed for electrical insulation at low amperage only and not for wear resistance (ie. the wire is not expected to move) or the heat generated by power transfer.  Regular wire usually has a thicker plastic insulation, and is rated for higher amperage (or milliamps in this case) and can resist wear much better.  

 

Thanks. I'll try to use regular wire if I can get it to fit. I'll only use magnet if I absolutely have to. I'm going to order a spool of 30g in both. I'll use the magnet eventually for lighting (future phase).

 

I found a great page on wiring on Sumida Crossing that is helping to get me up to speed. 

[cteno4]

Gavin,

 

A great fine wire for wiring LEDs for building and such is called wrapping wire.mits the best bang for the buck for low amperage wiring and is tough stuff. Also pretinned so solders fast and easy!

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-0-25mm-Wire-Wrapping-Wire-30AWG-Cable-305m-10-Colors-/131605891841?var=&hash=item1ea4528b01:m:mI1DcUWLI7Gl-ev7nPILg2Q

 

Sumida crossing is great site! Ken use to be very active here on the forum.

 

Cheers,

 

Jeff

[gavino200]

My wires finally arrived and I had another go at the Hokkaido project. Made some decent progress, many thanks to excellent suggestions from y'all.

 

I took a few photos. Not many because, honestly I didn't expect it to go this well.

 

 

 Motor wired and tested. Pick up wires soldered to drawbar.

 

Tender disassemble. Pickup brass thingys ready for soldering

 

 

Tender reassambled with pickup wires coming through top ready for testing.

 

 

Tender pickup tested with engine, test track, and 9V battery.

 

 

Motor wires passed through groove in moter. I had missed this before, but Kato had already made a indentation in the train body that a wire could pass through. 

 

 

Both motor wires and two LED magnet wires in place. The magnet wires were actually tougher to keep in place than the regular wires.

 

 

Last glimpse before closing. I had already filed down the inner surface of the engine cover before noticing Kato's DCC friendly groove in the body. I don't know if it helped. The cover closed quite easily.

 

 

Engine closed and tested with 9V battery. Running smoothly.

 

Now to read the instructions on the decoder I'm hoping to install. It's a Tsunami sound decoder. My first venture into sound. I may or may not get to this tomorrow.

 

Again. Thanks for your help.

 

Edit: On reviewing my post, I realized I forgot to put the weight back in. It's back in now, and the engine retested. Still running fine. Phew!

Edited January 15, 2017 by gavino200

[gavino200]

I did a bit more work on the project tonight. I'm one step closer. I'll need to do a bit of research on decoders though. There's no way a Tsunami 2 will fit.

 

I opened the tender top using a real Dremel burr and a Chinese fake Dremel that I picked up at Harbor Freight for $8

 

 

Drawbar in. Testing for shorts.

 

 

Connected, wired, and tested.

 

 

Wired engine, with Tsunami 2, "Sugar Cube" speaker, and capacitor. There's a lot of room but there's no way this thing's going to fit. The Digitrax decoder is the one I was going to use last time. It fits with a ton of room to spare. I don't know if it's still functional though. I'm going to read up on how to test it. 

 

 

The guy who sold me the Tsunami is a good guy and he thought it would fit. I assume he meant, without the weight. I see now that that's what the Japanese guys did.

 

http://asahiyu.blog.so-net.ne.jp/2011-12-13

 

http://asahiyu.blog.so-net.ne.jp/2011-12-07

 

It would be fairly easy do this.  Is there any disadvantage to losing the tender weights? I wouldn't need it for pickup contact as I'd be wired directly to the trucks. I'm leaning toward doing this when I get back to it. If there's any space left I could always make some lead weight to fit. 

 

Also, the Tsunami cube 2 comes with a little baffle box. Anyone know if that's really enough or should I fashion a little foam baffle around it?

Edited January 16, 2017 by gavino200

[gavino200]

So it's done. Project complete :)

 

It would have been wiser to wait until another day and go back to it when I was less tired. But I couldn't.... Fortunately it went well.

 

 

Tender weights removed. Pickup wires soldered to trucks and everything rewired as per plan B. I tested it like this and it worked. So all is good as long as I don't screw up getting it all inside.

 

 

Wires insulated and stuffed into the tender. This is very crude. I left the wires too long. I'll go back and fix this.

 

 

 

Top on. Wires inside. I'll redo this so there is a clear path for sound.

 

 

Coal, cab, trucks and various bit'n'bobs replaced. All done. Time to go play a bit before bed. (sorry about the blurry shot)

 

Edited January 16, 2017 by gavino200

[gavino200]

It lives. The Hokkaido lives! :)

 

Edited January 16, 2017 by gavino200

[gavino200]

 

 

Has any one successfully converted one of these loco"s? I wish that i had the skill, and more importantly the confidence to convert my new C 62

 

 

Finally, got if done. Did you get yours converted? If not, I'd be interested in taking it off your hands for a reasonable price. I wouldn't mind doing this again.

[gavino200]

I went back and redid the tender. I was able to remove about 70% of the wire. Everything fits nice and loose now. The previous stuffed wire was affecting the truck turning and caused a derailment at a sensitive part of my track (large radius S-turn with a short straight separating the opposing curves). I also worked the body of the tender a bit more to make some extra space. 

 

 

So I'm done now. The only thing left is to work on the details a bit. I lost the funnel somewhere along the way, and some of the piping is loose and needs attention. I might also try to add some weight to the tender. But for the time being I'm just going to run it and enjoy. The sound is great btw and the C62 runs nicely. 

 

There are quite a few difficult points in this project (for me anyway, a novice) that I didn't mention. If anyone ever needs to do this conversion I'd be happy to flesh it out a bit. 

 

Thanks to all here on JNS for your help.

Edited January 17, 2017 by gavino200

[Martijn Meerts]

I haven't done this one, but I have done some Kato steamers (old and new) as well as the newer Tomix steamers, and some MicroAce ones. I generally try to not cut any weight at all, but the downside of that is that the decoder is usually somewhat visible. Not noticeably visible if you don't know where to look or from a distance, but still.

 

Next up on the DCC workbench for me is Kato's C50 anniversary version, should be interesting :)

 

 

(Also, I don't do sound in N-scale, so that makes it easier with regards to not removing any weight. No need to make space for a speaker)

[gavino200]

I haven't done this one, but I have done some Kato steamers (old and new) as well as the newer Tomix steamers, and some MicroAce ones. I generally try to not cut any weight at all, but the downside of that is that the decoder is usually somewhat visible. Not noticeably visible if you don't know where to look or from a distance, but still.

 

Next up on the DCC workbench for me is Kato's C50 anniversary version, should be interesting :)

 

 

(Also, I don't do sound in N-scale, so that makes it easier with regards to not removing any weight. No need to make space for a speaker)

 

I agree. The tender doesn't derail but if you look closely it's very light on the rails. I doubt if there's much pickup coming from the tender. 

 

I could have fit a small decoder without removing the weights. That probably would have been the wisest thing, but I was curious about sound, and I thought my son would get a kick out of it (which he did). I had read before that n scale sound is not impressive. The Tsunami cube 2 makes some tall claims. This is the only sound decoder I've ever heard, so I have nothing to compare it to. But it's great. 

 

Still, I'm not happy about removing the weight. I might go back and revise it. If I replace the standard resistors and the giant capacitor with smaller ones, I'm fairly sure I can make a decent sized weight for the tender.

 

I'm also trying to find a new drawbar. While mine works and isn't shorting, it isn't perfect. I damaged one of the wire holders when I first took it apart two years ago. So while it's working ok I don't fully trust it. I found one in Japan, but they won't ship to the US. I'm going to try to find a way around that, or maybe just go to the place in March when I'm in Tokyo and hope they still have the part.

 

The alternative is to tap screws into the body and pass wires for pickup. That was suggested in the early part of the thread. I think I'd be happiest with this as I'm not impressed with Kato drawbars at all. Plus I'm intrigued by the technique and would love to try it. I'm really enjoying working on these steamies.

 

I'll be interested in the C50 project. I hope you have time to post some photos of the process. 

[Kiha66]

Wow, great project gavino!  Would the weight fit without the speaker?  Perhaps you could put the speaker in a baggage car, then run the wires to the decoder with a detachable connection?  And if you ran the wires near the coupling and painted them black, they'd probably look like air brake connections.

[gavino200]

Wow, great project gavino!  Would the weight fit without the speaker?  Perhaps you could put the speaker in a baggage car, then run the wires to the decoder with a detachable connection?  And if you ran the wires near the coupling and painted them black, they'd probably look like air brake connections.

 

Thanks. 

 

No. The cube2 speaker is really tiny. The problem is the Tsunami2 decoder. It's too large to fit. Especially with the large capacitor. A small 4 function decoder would fit, no problem.

 

But please tell me more about detachable connections. That's a great idea. What do you use?

 

 

Gavin

Edited January 18, 2017 by gavino200