DCC Decoder project - Kato C62 "Hokkaido" steam loco

[gavino200]

I've recently switched to DCC. Just before I made the switch, I ordered a Kato C62. I'd like to convert it to DCC. 

 

I'm planning on installing a Digitrax DZ143 decoder. See link below.

 

http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/245-DZ143

 

I found a guide on a japanese website with pictures showing a conversion. Links below.

 

 

http://asahiyu.blog.so-net.ne.jp/2011-12-13

 

 

http://asahiyu.blog.so-net.ne.jp/2011-12-07

 

 

My soldering skills are ok. I'm hoping to replicate the work shown here. However, I do not understand the circuitry of a DCC decoder. Specifically, I don't know which wires on the decoder correspond to which wires connecting to the loco.

 

Could anyone who understands the circuitry take a look at the pictures and tell me which colored wires on the loco match with which wires on the decoder?

 

Or if anyone knows of a any other guide to doing this I'd appreciate it. I won't be getting to this project for about a month from now, but I'm trying to gather as much information as I can.

 

Thanks,

 

Gavin

Edited January 15, 2017 by gavino200

[kvp]

You might need this:

 

Electrical Interface & Wire Color Code for Digital Command Control

http://www.nmra.org/standards/DCC/standards_rps/RP-9.1.1%20200801.pdf

 

DZ143 instruction sheet:

http://www.digitrax.com/static/apps/products/mobile-decoders/dz143/documents/DZ143.pdf

 

From that, the decoder wire colors are the following:

-red: power pickup 1 (right rail)

-black: power pickup 2 (left rail)

-gray: motor 2 (motor left)

-orange: motor 1 (motor right)

-white: front headlight sink (-)

-yellow: back headlight sink (-)

-blue: common headlight source (+)

-green: function 1 output (optional)

-violet: function 2 output (optional)

 

The japanese instructions show the installation of a decoder with sound output. The DZ143 doesn't look like a decoder with sound output, so you can ignore most of the steps from the japanese instructions. Essentially you wire 2 wires to the track pickups, 2 wires to the motor (while disconnecting the direct pickup-motor connections) and then 3 wires to the head and tail lights.

[Melandir]

Here you can find all the information you need and even more

 

http://www.wiringfordcc.com

[westfalen]

NGDCC make a drop in decoder for the C62.

http://www.snjpn.com/ngdcc/de22/de22x2_c62kj.htm

[gavino200]

Thanks for the great information!!

 

Westfalen, I emailed NGDCC for a price and shipping quote. I don't know any Japanese so I emailed in English. Hopefully, they'll understand. 

 

Gavin

Edited May 25, 2014 by gavino200

[westfalen]

I've ordered from him a few times and all went well.

[gavino200]

Just got the decoder from Japan. I'm a bit confused. There doesn't seem to be any room in the engine for the decoder. 

 

Here's the link to the product page. 

 

http://www.snjpn.com/ngdcc/de22/de22x2_c62kj.htm

 

What am I missing? Do I have a different engine? Mine is a Kato 2017-1 C62.

 

Or is there something else I'm missing?

 

 

 

Below is a picture of my engine, the decoder and the LED circuit board that came with the engine.

 

Edited June 6, 2014 by gavino200

[kvp]

First, your locomotive is a kato 2017 and not a kato 2019. But if you can fit the decoder after removing the weights, then you might manage to install it. First, remove the weights and the motor. Then isolate the body from the motor contact points. In your case they are located at different places. Then add the led you bought to the board. You will have to file the top of the led to make it fit. Then you have to use wires from the decoder output (located around the 62k text) to the motor contacts on the side of the motor, because your locomotive doesn't have metal contact springs and it would be unreliable anyway (according to the japanese site). Route the wires in a way that they won't get in the way of the shell. You might be able to keep the weight in the back and only remove the one on top of the motor. Use a metal saw to cut off the front part of the top weight. Assemble everything and if you can close the top, then it's ready. The red led for the firebox effects is optional, you can add it with wires if you want it.

[gavino200]

Thanks. It looks like it'll fit as long as I leave off the motor stabilizing clip and cut down the weight. Will it run ok with less weight?

 

Any pointers about isolating the body from the motor contact points? There's a close up of them below. 

 

The motor wires are connected to brass plates that slot into grooves in the body. Looks like split body design. Do you know where the electric contacts to the body are? Thats where I need to route my wires from, right?

 

Also doesn't look like the glowing firebox effect will work on this engine. I don't see any translucency or plastic optic lens on the back of the housing.

 

Any pointers would be very welcome

 

Two more pictures added  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

PS

 

Here is what I understand. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

I need wires coming from the wheel pick up (a good point would be the two wires going from the engine to the tender).

 

These wires need to go to the side contacts on the decoder without contacting the body. 

 

The output of the decoder goes to the body and then to the motor. 

 

The engine will then work. Right?, Wrong?

 

BTW, I didn't buy a LED. I was planning to just solder on one that I got from a converted Kato diesel. Ok or no?

Edited June 6, 2014 by gavino200

[gavino200]

Or.... 

 

Maybe, I just need to connect the motor wires to the side contact on the Decoder with no intervening contact to the body.

 

Circuit is then. Wheels -> Body -> Decoder -> Motor (and LEDs). 

 

This seems to fit better with your reply.

Edited June 5, 2014 by gavino200

[kvp]

Yes, you have already removed the analog light board. It has two contact pads on its front. The decoder connects exactly to the same place. This holds it in place and powers it. This locomotive has a motor with wires. This is great, since you don't have to isolate anything, just disconnect the wires from the body and connect them to the two pads on the decoder. Add the filed down led to the front and you are ready (almost any white led should work). The only thing you should make sure it that the bottom of the decoder with the exposed circuits don't touch anything metal. So maybe putting a bit of a thin isolation tape on the underside of the decoder before installing it would make sure there won't be any shorts. The only place on the decoder that should touch the body is the front two pads that take track power from the lighting board connection.

[gavino200]

Thanks for your help. I tried the conversion. It failed. If you could give me your opinion, I'd appreciate it. 

 

Main problem - Fried circuit:

 

I connected everything as in the picture below. I connected the motor wires with the polarities as they were.

 

I connected the LED with polarities matching the analog light board.

 

I put Kapton tape on the underside of the decoder board

 

When I tested the engine the small component (marked in the picture) glowed and fried. That component is completely destroyed.

 

There's no damage to the motor. I tested it. It still works.

 

One possibility is that there may not have been enough Kapton tape covering the underside of the board where the LED was soldered. It's pretty rough. The metal may have poked through the tape when the contacts were put in place. Otherwise I can't see any short.

 

 

Second problem:

 

The enging casing (plastic exterior) would not fit in place no matter how much the LED was pared down. I pared it down much more after taking the picture to getting it to fit. There's a plastic piece on the the underside of the funnel that gets in the way. I could probably solve this by using a much smaller LED like the one on the original analog light board.

 

 

At this point I've got to decide whether to cut my losses or try again with either a different decoder or another of the same kind.

 

Edited June 6, 2014 by gavino200

[inobu]

Gavin,

 

I feel bad because I missed this one. I thought you were going to install the wired decoder. This install was impossible from the begining. Either way it would have failed. You should never remove weight from an engine. The weight is engineered into the frame which adds to the traction to the wheels.

 

The mass ratio between a decoder and weight is unmatched. Meaning the decoder size is bigger but its mass is a fraction of the weights mass. In order to fit a decoder like this into the chassie you will need to remove a large

amount or area of weight. The decoder cannot not replace that much mass. If you were able to get it running it would have start slipping after adding a number of cars. 

 

The biggest problem is the decoder is too large for this install there is not enough room for the decoder. I would not have chosen this route.

 

Now I'm speaking from experience. On a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being the hardest, this install is a 7 or 8.

 

I think the C62 has  number of iterations but the decoder is designed for 2019-2 

 

IF you are going to do it again go with your original plan and wire it from the tender.

 

Inobu

[gavino200]

Thanks Inobu. 

 

As luck would have it I still have the wired decoder. Planning to put the chip in the tender and run wires forward. 

 

I'm following the general scheme of the japanese sound decoder install (ie using their ideas on how to run the wires etc)

 

I don't understand what to do with the common light blue wire. I'm guessing I just split it and send one branch forward and one branch back.

[kvp]

 

I connected the LED with polarities matching the analog light board.

The fried part is a diode. This usually means a short between a power rail and a the track inputs. The led is huge and it's not a clear white one, like in the instruction and it's mounted on top of the board not in front of it. Also, i think your motor contact pads could touch the frame under them. That should be isolated. The led polarity is marked on the board, so you should have installed it according to the board markings and not the original direction.

 

Since you have a wired decoder, you should try that, but the wiring instructions you mention is not for your decoder, so you should find one for your decoder type, otherwise you will just fry that too.

 

 

This install was impossible from the begining. Either way it would have failed. You should never remove weight from an engine. The weight is engineered into the frame which adds to the traction to the wheels.

 

The weight could be cut in half and the larger part in the back would fit after the install. Also, the top part could be cut off from the front block and fit inside top of the shell with some glue and isolation on the underside. Anyway, i think this decoder install could be done, just needs a bit more thinking and measuring before doing it. Finding a short before turning on the power can be done with a good multimeter and imho is a must. Using a short protected programming track for testing is also a good thing. Getting the right led and using much less solder would have helped too. I would have installed the led surface mounted because it's easier that way. It's not that hard, but it's not a drop in, but rather a file in decoder and the japanese instructions say that (at least this is what i get from the google translation).

[inobu]

I feel bad that I did not chime in. This install is impossible without turning this model into an un-useable heap. You cannot cut the weight in half, install the decoder board and replace the shell reasonably.

look at the last image. The board rises above the weight line and floats above the flywheel.

 

This e22x2 board is for the C2019-2 not the C2017-1

 

These images show that a bit more thinking and measuring will deem the install "impossible"

 

 

Inobu

[kvp]

 

These images show that a bit more thinking and measuring will deem the install "impossible"

 

So that means the motor is higher than the light board? Because that was the first thing i asked:

 

 

First, your locomotive is a kato 2017 and not a kato 2019. But if you can fit the decoder after removing the weights, then you might manage to install it. 

 

This means that the decoder didn't fit after removing the weights? I tought that was checked first...

 

The idea to put a decoder in place of a weight is not new, many tank locomotives have to be milled out to make room for a decoder. But if the motor is too big and the decoder won't fit, then it is really impossible to install it.

[gavino200]

Hey guys. No one should feel bad about anything. A thirty buck decoder is toast. That's all. I asked you all for your best advice or guess and I'm grateful for all of your imput.

 

The circuit board did fit without the weight. I just couldn't get the cover on after I soldered on the light. I did file it down more than in the picture. But yes it was the soldered "legs" of the diode that got in the way. That probably could have been fixed with a bit of trial and error. That was a secondary problem.

 

I put insulating tape under the circuit board. I think the sharp end of the solder points probably poked through the insulating tape when I slid it into place. My gut tells me that's where the short was but I can't be sure.

 

Regarding the weight, I bet you're both right. I think the loss of weight would have reduced the pulling power, but with two traction tires it would probably have worked reasonably well. The body is fairly heavy. I considered that but figured I'd take the chance. Without the conversion the engine is just a piece of scenery so it's worth it.

 

Even if this conversion doesn't work it's a fun exercise. I'm doing this with my son so he's learning either way. So win or lose, it's all good.

 

Update, I wired in the digitrax decoder. It works, but I have to find an alternate way of getting the wires to exit the cover. My first try impinged on the motor. I'll update you guys.

 

Thanks for ALL the help btw. Keep it coming :)

 

Gavin

Edited June 6, 2014 by gavino200

[gavino200]

Current status

 

I tested the decoder using electrical pickup directly from the track. It works.

Programs fine. Forward, backward, lights on and off. I disconnected the decoder again so I could solve the problem of routing the wires from the engine to the tender.

 

For LED I used the tiny one from a kato passenger carriage illumination kit. It worked but the connection was a bit tenuous. It disconnected while I was working on the tender connection.

 

 

 

 

 

I've solved the problem of passing the wires from the engine to the tender. The problem was to keep the wires away from the worm-screw brass bearing. After I found my own way I realized how they did it in the Japanese link (the japanese way is much better). A little gentle leverage on the running board allow you to recess the wires without any impingement. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I've made a pair of small conduits to pass the wires. I plan to blacken them like in the Japanese description.

 

 

 

I need more of that tiny wire and some tiny LEDs before I can go ahead. Not sure where I can get those. I tried a few places but no luck. I'll have to do some research. 

 

The only LEDs I have left are these below. The clear one might work. but I want to see if I can find some smaller ones with good soldering points.

 

 

 

I think a difficult part of the project has yet to come. The electric pickup will not be easy. I've soldered wires to the brass plates but I think tweeking that so that it works won't be easy. Also, I'm a bit concerned about the twin pickups that go from the engine to the tender. I tried to solder to those like in the Japanese description. They were extremely difficult to get back into the plastic joint.

 

Anyway, I'm going to resupply and get back at it after the 20th. Didn't plan to do this project yet. We just thought it would be quick (duh, never is) with the drop in decoder from Japan.

 

I have one question. Do any of you have a better way of joining and insulating these tiny wires. I wind and solder and then wrap them with "Kapton tape". Wrapping with the tape works but is neither simple nor particularly elegant looking. Anyone have a better way?

 

Thanks

 

Gavin

Edited June 6, 2014 by gavino200

[gavino200]

So that means the motor is higher than the light board? Because that was the first thing i asked:

 

 

This means that the decoder didn't fit after removing the weights? I tought that was checked first...

 

The idea to put a decoder in place of a weight is not new, many tank locomotives have to be milled out to make room for a decoder. But if the motor is too big and the decoder won't fit, then it is really impossible to install it.

 

Yes, higher but only slightly. Less than a millimeter. The board needed to curve slightly but it did fit - without the LED. There's a small protrusion on the inside of the funnel that impinged against the mounted LED. That could have been fixed, but it's a moot point now since I'm going with the digitrax decoder.

[westfalen]

The 2017 version of the C62 uses the decoder made for the Kato NW2, that is what I used in mine.

[gavino200]

The 2017 version of the C62 uses the decoder made for the Kato NW2, that is what I used in mine.

 

 

This information would have been more useful earlier. 

Edited June 6, 2014 by gavino200

[inobu]

Sometimes silence speaks louder than words.

Inobu

[inobu]

Gavin,

 

Did you get it going?

 

inobu

[westfalen]

This information would have been more useful earlier. 

I didn't realise you had that version of the C62, sorry.