First attempt with N scale.

[The_Doctor]

Hello. I'm new here, and sort of new to the hobby. I used to have an HO 4'x8' layout about 18 years ago, but the usual thing happend, we had to move and I had to pull it apart. Now I'm back with an idea to put an N scale layout on a right angle shelf. I have signed up to this forum to seek advice on what to do and whether my shelf dimensions are actually going to work.

 

 

I've been using SCARM to design the layout with KATO Unitrack in mind for the whole thing. The first problem I've come across is the 12 inches on space I have for the curves. They're using Unitrack Compact Curved Track R117mm which I have since found out is rather small and I'm guessing useless to run anything longer than a tram.

 

That brings me to my second problem. The trains I would like to run. I had the idea of running at least one Shinkansen that could run through an entire loop, and two of KATO's Portrams running in a loop in the lower right side where a cityscape would be, but because of the space and those curves I'm not sure if I'll be able to achieve all that.

 

Is there any way, with the space I have (possible extension by a few inches), that I could run a loop for a four car Shinkansen?

 

 

 

 

 

P.S. Don't say NO! You'll break my heart.

[NJHA]

A loop i don't think you can. But you can run it back and forward without having to loop.

The shinkansen curves need at least 315mm, even better in 348mm.

 

That is my idea at least. Still kind of starting also :) 

[kvp]

If you want to have trams, then i would suggest you to use the Tomix small radius rails. It has 3 curves, R177, R140 and R103 with the turnouts at R140. Many trams need at least the R140 curve to run reliably, so imho you should use the R140 curves. Fortunately some Tomix trains (for example all Tomytec train collection items) and most Tomix, Kato and Modemo trams can run on R140 curves. The largest train i have that runs good on R140 is a Tomix 113 series suburban emu. 12 inches is 300 mm and that will be enough for a nice R140 curve, loop or ballon track, depending on whether you want a single or a double track line.

 

For the shinkansen, a straight back and forth shuttle line can be built on one side that can even be automated with a tomix automatic control box. You can even add a terminus above the tram/local tracks, like in Shin-Aomori.

 

ps: For design, you can use the free version of anyrail, that has both tomix and kato tracks and rulers so you can draw up your shelf dimensions.

Edited April 6, 2014 by kvp

[Bernard]

When I designed my Shinkansen layout I made sure that my tightest radius was 17" (431mm....I used Peco flex track) I very liberal with this because I didn't want any derailments. I'm glad I did because anything less and my N700 would have problems going through the curves.

 

Oh and Doctor...Welcome to the forum!

[kvp]

I've drawn a few tracks that would fit the shelf. On the left side is a loop or oval with Tomix R140 curves (good for trams and some suburban trains). On the right side is an elevated shinkansen terminal station with a tunnel (hidden stretch) so the trains will have some place to go. It can handle 3 shinkansens and they can be rotated. The trams/suburban trains can go under the elevated station so it's possible to have a continous loop for them or pretty much anything.

 

[tossedman]

Hey Doc,

 

Welcome to the forum. Maybe it's time for you to take a look at some B Train Shorties. They'll navigate the tightest corners you have. Here's a 16 car Shinkansen having no problems with the R117mm corners (slowly of course!) You trade off a bit in scale looks for longer trains but they're fun. We've been working on a narrow layout like yours and Trams and B trains are the way to go.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPMI6bSwsvg

Cheers eh,

 

Todd 

Edited April 6, 2014 by tossedman

[cteno4]

doc,

 

like folks have mentioned above, you can get away with a 330mm deep layout like this with trams and tight radius curves. Ive not tried the 117r curves with trams yet to see. like kvp mentioned that with tomix the 113 begins to give trouble for some trams, especially the articulated modemos. smaller trams and the unitrams go thru them.

 

shinkansens will require 2-3x the depth for a full 180. some will run on some tighter curves but many wont and they look really ugly trying to go around the tight curves.

 

this bookshelf is going to have to be an all tram layout im afraid. even larger single and double car dmus and emus will probably not work with the 117r curves. 

 

tomix and kato track both work well for this stuff. kato now has a smaller 45 degree point as well now. tomix wide tram track has the benefit that if you want to have the track embedded into a street this gives it to you predone. this is a big benefit if you do curves as trying to fill in roadways around curved track is a lot of hard work (easy though on straight track). tomix track spacing if you have double tracks is a bit wider at 37mm, kato is 33mm. not a huge difference, but when space is small it can make a difference. personally i like the tram tracks closer together, feels more realistic and usually in this type of small scene modeling you are doing a bit of depth compression to give the illusion of more there in depth than you have space for! tomix does not get imported outside japan much so you just have to order it directly from japan, not horrible but cant grab a pack of track at a local shop usually where as kato unitrack is distributed pretty widely around the world.

 

one idea might be to look at T-Trak modules. this is a concept of having small modules (like 1' square) that have two tracks near the front. clubs get together and string larger layouts of them together. you can make balloon ends to loop the tracks back for each end and run them along a bookshelf like this. just a thought if you ever want to play with others with this setup at shows and such.

 

in any case i would think of doing the whole thing sectional so it comes apart into smaller pieces. this is really important if you ever move the layout and also lets you work on smaller bits of it down on the work bench as well as take it to shows if you want later.

 

keep us posted on your progress! also take a look at the jrm website www.japanrailmodelers.org, there are a bunch of small layout and sectional/modular articles there that might give you some more ideas!

 

cheers

 

jeff

Edited April 6, 2014 by cteno4

[The_Doctor]

Thank you for all your help so far, it is much appreciated.

 

Those T-Trak modules look incredible. They have details everywhere you look. I'm hoping to make my layout modular just to make it easier to carry the pieces down to the shed to work on.

 

I have since discovered that these Series 0, 100, 300, 500, 700, 800, N700, E1, E2, E4 Tomix trains apparently run on a 280mm radius. So with that in mind I've used R282-45's to get a loop. It does double the depth of the shelf, but I think I may have a solution. 600mm isn't as bad as I thought it might be, but it may require some fiddling and rearranging.

 

In the mean time though I've come up with a modified layout based on the assumption that a Tomix N700 could get around a 282mm curve without becoming a wreck. If I do go the extra 300mm I may as well just go for the extra 70mm and put in the 315 that the whinny trains want to go fast! I'll have to discuss what can be done.

 

 

Track didn't line up.

 

Looking at it, that S might be a bit much.

Edited April 7, 2014 by The_Doctor

[The_Doctor]

I've been playing around with the viaduct in Anyrail trial because I'm too cheap to buy it.

 

I have two designs so far. Both are pretty much the same except for two little straights that I thought might help.

 

 

The largest curves are 315 and the smallest are two pieces of 249. I could probably save some space by taking out some of those 315 curves, but then I'm not sure the train would get around it.

[cteno4]

doc,

 

are you still thinking shinkansens? i dont think they are going to like that S curve there. while many might run on an oval of 282, i think they will get super grumpy doing any snaking as they dont even like S curves with much larger radiuses (so much so we always put at least a 128 in the middle of any shinkansen S curves). some of the shinkansens do better in the tight radius than other as the trucks have a tad more swivel room with less skirting. also the diaphragm coupling can also put a lot of strain to the train going around the tight stuff. at times it can lift wheels up just a bit to make them loose contact on the power cars.

 

play away with anyrail, thats the way to go until you get to the point you think you have something to start playing with. but even then you can always keep fiddling, thats the beauty of kato and tomix sectional track!

 

jeff

[kvp]

The two 249 wont work. For those trains you mentioned, 280 is the absolute minimum radius, so you can't really go below that and expect them to work. Also, add at least 2 cars (280 mm) worth of straights between any opposite direction turns with the 280 mm radius. Also avoid S curves below the double of the normal curve radius. With these rules, you can pretty much build whatever you want and it will work.

[The_Doctor]

I've decided not to run Shinkansens because they require far too much space that I just don't have, so I went and had a look around and found a few trains I'm hoping my cramped space can accommodate.

 

The first is the 251 Series Super View Odoriko

 

Does it say in this that the minimum curve is R249?

 

The second train is the 885 Series White Sonic don't have any details on it though. I also like the look of the 883 series. I'll also still be running the Portram's, but I know they'll fit. I hope these trains can negotiate tighter curves than those other whinny trains because my layout will be very bland without them

[IST]

Yes, it says the smallest radius is 249 mm.

But I have to warn you that although it will run on 249 mm, it won't look good. Cars are quite long for this small radius.

[The_Doctor]

My curves should all end up being 282 and 315.

[kvp]

That should be enough for most tomix trains, including some shinkansens.

[The_Doctor]

That should be enough for most tomix trains, including some shinkansens.

 

And for the two or three I mentioned, they should run adequately shouldn't they?

[The_Doctor]

Update on my tram layout.

[kvp]

And for the two or three I mentioned, they should run adequately shouldn't they?

Yes. Just avoid S curves. (for the first train above that is not really needed, but for the future it's a good strategy)

 

On the other hand the tram layout looks fine and i don't see any curves below R140 either. 

[The_Doctor]

I've been busy. I now have somewhat of a clear idea in mind.

 

 

Can't quite get those four loose ends up the top to curve around in any fashion. I have the main loop done (I think) so I could just use smaller R150 curves and have it run trams.

 

 

Looks a bit goofy.

 

Edit: Looking at it further, it's not too messy is it?

Edited April 17, 2014 by The_Doctor

[kvp]

 

Edit: Looking at it further, it's not too messy is it?

As far as i can see, you have common tracks for the trams going north with the mainline. It's quite unusual and not really realistic. Also, the mainline contains one sharp left turnout which is not meant for mainline trains. It's next to the mainline/tramline common section. I think it might be a good idea to change that turnout and split the mainline tracks from the tram tracks with only the southern connection kept for equipment interchange. Also, there are some clearance problems near the right wall and the top of the tram loops.

 

Imho you should get a few trains first, some track and test the trains on the track to see how they work. You have lots of places where turnouts are placed just after a curve, S curves, flex track, lots of small radius curves. This might or might not work with a certain trainset. It's very easy to tell if one set runs or not on a layout as long as you are only using set pieces, combined in a by the book fashion, avoiding S curves, flextrack and placing turnouts away from curves. When you add these elements, then each set from each manufacturer start to act slightly differently. On your layout above, even some tomytec train collection trains would have a rough time, even tough they are generally designed to run on R140 curves and turnouts.

[The_Doctor]

I cleaned up the mainline and moved the whole layout away from the walls. I have about a 3cm gap between the wall and the track. I'd really like the mainline connected to the tram line so the trams can escape and get caught on Trams Gone Wild. I've moved or deleted a few points, putting straights in a few spots.

 

 

The southern connection. You mean the one I've marked?

 

Edited April 18, 2014 by The_Doctor

[kvp]

Yes, i meant that. It won't disturbe the mainline traffic and can still be used by the trams. I think the mainline is ok now and you can just add the marked switch back, including the crossing next to it.

[The_Doctor]

More fiddling. I've removed a few points after seeing that they looked a bit rubbish and they're over $25 each

 

I think it's a little more streamlined now. Looks a little messy at least. Trams can now run on the blue line and escape to the red line if they want, and big trains can escape to the blue line and crash into someone's back door.

 

 

 

Edit: Someone could have said my tram track looked rubbish at the south end.

Edited April 18, 2014 by The_Doctor

[The_Doctor]

Did a 1:1 print out of the layout today and noticed for the first time how large it all is. It's not that it can't be done, but more do I want to do it. This entire thing started with a design to go on a shelf above my bed in the corner of my room. N scale as it turns out is not as small as I always remembered, or over the years it's slowly been sneaking up in scale. So to combat the fact that 670mm might not actually look that much, but in terms of a shelf it's bloody enormous I've come up with this (sadly) tram only layout with a really ugly loop in the top left corner. All made from Tomix and a few pieces of Peco flex track.

 

 

I've taken inspiration from the Enoden line, obviously not from the track, but from the way all the buildings, roads, and tracks are forced so close together. I like tight spaces. At the moment I'm the only one that can see that now.

 

It's probably best I do use this one because it is that much smaller that the other. It's amazing what 25cm will do.

 

 

 

I don't know how, but I think this one has come out better than the bigger one and it only took me an hour.

Edited April 20, 2014 by The_Doctor

[kvp]

 

I've come up with this (sadly) tram only layout with a really ugly loop in the top left corner. All made from Tomix and a few pieces of Peco flex track.

If you use only R140 curves and larger (R177), then you can pretty much run commuter trains too. R280 turnouts are also a good thing besides the R140 ones. I've been running commuter trains with 20 meter cars (jnr113, jre231 series), even locomotives (ed75, ed61) and normal passenger cars on R140 without problems (even S curves). If you stick with trams, still check for R140, since modemo trams don't really like anything smaller.

 

ps: You should check how to mix peco with tomix, since finetrack is usually incompatible with most other track systems.