Powered units - Kato Shinkansen vs Kato American locomotives

[Mauka]

Aloha JNS -

 

file this under idle musing - but I recently purchased (as individual locomotives) 3 Kato Alaska EMD E8s in A-B-A configuration, and every one of them is a powered unit. 

But the 4 Kato Shinkansen sets I've purchased have just a single power unit per set.  This might be related to the prototypes, not sure - but for modeling I don't need three powered units to pull an 6 to 10 unit passenger train.

 

And I was wondering about problems related to uneven speeds, now and as the hours build up?  I mean should I always run them in A-B-A configuration?

 

like I said just idle musing...

 

Alan

[bikkuri bahn]

It has to do with the customer use of the product.  As the E8 units are individual locomotives, people will be using them to pull potentially long trains.  The shinkansen units are based on EMU design, and thus tend to be used in fixed formations, with one power car as adequate.  There may be marketing factors involved as well in the sale of only powered locomotives for the E8, on the retailer side.

[Martijn Meerts]

It's not entirely uncommon for Japanese trains to have multiple powered cars either though. Kato doesn't do it often with their sets, but Tomix and MicroAce often have 2 powered cars in their 16-car shinkansen sets.

 

Also, I think prototypically it wasn't very common for an A-B-A setup to pull trains of only a few cars, but I can't be sure. I know some of the named trains were pulled by multiple powered units, but they usually had quite a few cars.

 

I wouldn't worry about uneven speeds, the motors and gears are likely all to be the same, so there's be little to no difference. Even small differences in speed isn't an issue. Of course, if you mainly run as an A-B consist rather than A-B-A for example, you will eventually get larger speed differences, but still nothing to really worry about.

[Matteo_IT]

As I have a lot of Kato USA locomotives, I can give you these advices:

As one loco is quite powerful, to pull an average train of 10-12 cars is enough, the others locos are in excess, but to make a real train you nedd for them, and the result is an uneven speed between locos.

1) you can make a speed test: once done, you put the fastest loco on head, and gradually the slower as 2nd, 3rd... as you can have a train with the head "all pulling": 1st pulls the 2nd, 2ns pulls the 3rd etc.

2) you can remove all the powering system: motor, worms, gears... as you can have a dummy engine but reconvertible.

3) you can do as the 2) but with a milling machine you work to reduce the weight... of course the engine is not reversible.

4) you can order another chassis to do the 3).

I hope this was hopeful! 

 

 

[Melandir]

I can suggest you to go digital, use a speedometer to check loco speed, use decoders parameters to even the loco speed and play with them with Consist address (TCS decoders support it)

[kvp]

Since the locomotives have the same gearing and motors their speeds should be the same. I would suggest you to run them together, since this is the easiest way to keep them running together smoothly. Using digital decoders (even in analog mode) is a good way to balance out different locomotives, but in this case it isn't really needed. If you want to run them in AB or AA configuration, this is possible, but then it's possible to have different speeds after a long time.

 

For the prototype, it's very common to use ABA sets for short heritage trains. It's too much power for the short train, but since we are speaking about tourists, economical operation isn't really a priority, but the ability to run around the train without a turntable can be important. Pulling 10 cars with 3 locomotives means each locomotive pulls 3.3 cars and for example most marklin Z scale locomotives, 3 or 4 cars is the ideal load. Kato has much stronger engines, but loading them lightly should not be a problem. The alaska railroad did run their E8-s in ABA configuration, so this is prototypical.

[Mauka]

Aloha and a big mahalo to everyone for their informative replies.  I have been thinking about digital, which I have used and enjoyed with my O Gauge trains, which are all packed away now for lack of space- waiting for retirement. :) 

 

I thought about DCC at work and spent half the night researching products and pricing - and decided that without the space for a fixed layout, now is not the time.  Going to order another Kato power pack and run trains!

 

It was interesting to hear your points of view, and looking at where the members are from, Hungary, Italy,  Ezo ("Republic of Ezo"?), and The Netherlands, this is truly an international forum and hobby!

 

Alan

Edited March 13, 2014 by Mauka

[Guest Closed Account 1]

Going digital +1

TCS decoders +1

 

I have 5 Kato GEVO's and all are speed matched with TCS decoders.

 

All my A&B units, USA steams are matched, too.

 

I can move a mile train without the slinky effect with locos as pullers and pushers, and a mid-loco, too.

 

Moving trains on speed step one always gets attention at the shows. Is that train moving?

 

Find an Ntrak club or a railroad club that runs N Gauge. Every railroad club needs N Gauge.

[Mudkip Orange]

Also, I think prototypically it wasn't very common for an A-B-A setup to pull trains of only a few cars, but I can't be sure.

 

Correct. An A-B-A consist would make roughly 7,000 horsepower. On the ARR main (ruling grade 1%) that would be about 20 full-length passenger cars, 30 grossed out freight cars (@263 kips/per), or 50 boxcars loaded according to 1950s/1960s operating practices. And if you're going to drag around 50 boxcars you probably want all three locos powered.

[kvp]

Correct. An A-B-A consist would make roughly 7,000 horsepower. On the ARR main (ruling grade 1%) that would be about 20 full-length passenger cars, 30 grossed out freight cars (@263 kips/per), or 50 boxcars loaded according to 1950s/1960s operating practices. And if you're going to drag around 50 boxcars you probably want all three locos powered.

Now try to move these trains across the Rocky Mountains to Los Angeles and you can only bring 10-12 passenger cars. The Super Chief used an A-B-B-A consist for 12 cars. That is 1 motor unit per 4 cars or roughly 300 hp per car, which is slightly less than the 550 hp of a Budd RDC. For an A-B-A consist, the same ratio would mean 8 passenger cars on hilly terrain. Similar hilly areas can be found in western Canada and Alaska.

[westfalen]

Now try to move these trains across the Rocky Mountains to Los Angeles and you can only bring 10-12 passenger cars. The Super Chief used an A-B-B-A consist for 12 cars. That is 1 motor unit per 4 cars or roughly 300 hp per car, which is slightly less than the 550 hp of a Budd RDC. For an A-B-A consist, the same ratio would mean 8 passenger cars on hilly terrain. Similar hilly areas can be found in western Canada and Alaska.

The Santa Fe used F3's and F7's on the transcontinental trains such as the Super Chief because the four axle units were able to handle the grades better than the A1A-A1A wheel arangement E units or Alco PA's.  A four unit set of 1750 hp F7's would give 583.3 hp per car of a twelve car train but one or two helper locos were usually added over the steepest sections such as Raton Pass as well.  In later years the trains often went all the way with up to eight units.

 

According to Wikipedia the hp output of a 16 car 700 series is 17,700 hp or 1106.25 hp per car, the extra horsepower is needed to get the high speed.

[kvp]

1750 hp  * 4 / (12 + 4) = 437.5 hp because the locomotives have to be moved too, so they have to be added the total number of cars

 

ps:

The 17700 hp of the 700 series means that a conventional 14 car train with two taurus locomotives at 17200 hp and a maximal top speed of 357 km/h could provide the same speed (if not the same acceleration) as a 700 series shinkansen. This might mean that high speed rail in the US could be done with conventional amtrak cars by getting Siemens ES64U locomotives and assigning them top and tail to the consists like the acela. The only limit would be the maximal allowed track speeds. Afaik amtrak does have a few euro sprinter 64-s under the name cities sprinter...

[Mudkip Orange]

This might mean that high speed rail in the US could be done with conventional amtrak cars by getting Siemens ES64U locomotives and assigning them top and tail to the consists like the acela. The only limit would be the maximal allowed track speeds.

 

The Hippos are basically SNCF 36000s, so that's been done. But in addition to track speed issues (which are uniformly 125mph except for a bit of 135 in NJ and 150 in MA/RI) you also have the speed limits of the existing fleet. IIRC this is 125mph for Amfleet and 100mph for Heritage (which is why the long-distance loco hauled trains take up so many "slots" in the NEC, they're all hauling around those damned midcentury baggage cars).

 

If there is a way forward for US HSR I think it runs through California and not New England. The left coast crowd seems committed to non-FRA complaint trainsets. In the short term this means full dedicated tracks and/or time segregated use of Caltrain/Metrolink in the manner of San Diego Sprinter. In the long term that's the camel's nose that could lead to sane signalling and crash requirements.