My layout - Plan done! Time to start (page 7)

[NJHA]

Bench is done! 

I am expecting the track to arrive next week, so that i can star working on the grades and overall disposition. 

 

I will keep you posted.

[NJHA]

Been a few weeks after my last post, so it's time for an update: 

 

I had to revise my plan! Just when i thought all was 100% bullet proof with my 3 levels and all my calculations, I suddenly remembered i was working with modules... and modules have borders and legs made of timber and last time i had checked trains don't like running into timber, nor tables stand straight without legs. 

So i had to revise the all concept. 

 

I did manage to not change the plan layout in any way, only changed the height of the tracks. So i got a 0 cm ground track and the station is located at 10cm high. Had to do it, since i needed to pass tracks over each other. There is just one thing i don't really like... now the back portion of the plan is placed at a lower level than the front, the general layout incline is reversed. I am debating on if i change that or leave it like it is.

 

Resulting from the change from 3 to 2 levels my grades came near to 3%. Tested it. At extremely slow speed the trains have some difficulty on climbing. Overall my 2 trains can climb up the inclines with no problems as long as the speed is enough. Have to test on DCC later.

  

The most immediate problem to solve is the incline. What do you guys think? 

- Leave it as is (front is at higher level than back, front tracks cover back tracks view)

- Invert it. (put front tracks at a lower level and back tracks at a higher level)

[cteno4]

3 %is pretty tough on the trains. Usually most limit it to 2%. Like you said with some speed it works, but I do fear it may wear on your trains. One of our club members had a 4x8 layout with a 3% or so grade on his double viaduct line and liked to run his trains fast on it. I ended up doing a lot of maintenance on his trains for him the next year (he eventually got rid of the grades). Two stripped drive shafts and a lot of full truck clean outs as they were grinding. Not sure if his place was particularly dusty (never noticed that as always seemed clean it was in his dining room and layout usually pretty clean) to cause the mucked up trucks or the high speed and the grades. Busted drive shafts could have been from wrecks as he did have pretty good ones running fast on sometimes sort of rickety supports.

 

But watching his trains run I could hear and feel the strain of them hitting that grade.

 

Jeff

[NJHA]

 

But watching his trains run I could hear and feel the strain of them hitting that grade.

 

Jeff

Yeap, i noticed that also with my trains. They struggle to climb on very low speed, and at normal speed the get a rather big speed drop as soon as they hit the incline.

I may really have to take a deeper look at those inclines and revise them.

I may need to change the station position though.  

[NJHA]

I have been reviewing all this topic since i started it on 18-January 2014. Nearly 10 months after what did i achieve? 

 

1- I started knowing little about track planning, full of wild dreams, i wanted cargo trains, I wanted a freight area and a harbor and lots and lots of stuff.

 

2- A few months into the project i changed the layout location, and a new, bigger and wilder dream came! This time i had almost half a room to fill with track and trains. I started planning big, doing crazy stuff, lots of ideas. Then one day i entered the track individual value on the software and calculated the total track value. Result? Reality check! You got no money for such a wild dream Nuno, cut it down!

 

3- So i started working again on a new plan. This was my idea:

It had it all! I had a underground line, a large station all crammed into a 3 level plan. Soon after i realized that the underground line was not an option, so i dumped it, brought the underground line to ground level and built the plan anyway. I had 3% grades and i discovered my trains would struggle a bit to climb them.  

 

4- A new design was needed! I had to keep grades low (max 2%), not add more track and still be happy with the final result. I searched a bit, tested several options but was having no results. Then one day i went and looked to the tracks and it came to me! It was soooo simple: 

 

5- I redone the plan, retested it and this is the result: 

 

 

Little explanation about the plan colors: 

Dark blue: station located at +60mm

Green : Ramps starting at 0mm going up to 60mm

Light blue: ground level track

 

Future work plan: 

 

0- Have fun, feel great with what i have accomplished so far 

1- work on the station board. It needs to be cut as it is to large, needs to be added to get to the turnouts and needs to look more like concrete. 

2- Wiring everything up to work on DCC

3- Start a mountain landscape at the far end near the wall corner.

4- Deciding on the city landscape :)

5- Buy , buy, buy, buy :)  :)

 

[Densha]

It makes me think of those Shinkansen stations with traditional lines underneath it, as in Shin-Aomori for example: http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%96%B0%E9%9D%92%E6%A3%AE%E9%A7%85

[katoftw]

Looks great.  Sorry to do this to you but...

 

 

Trams? :cussing:

 

 

[NJHA]

:laughing6:  :laughing6: !

 

Trams are a possibility.Since I received the snowmiku 2012 and 2013 (from the hobby search bargains) i have 2 tram shells, so yes, they are a possibility as i only need the motors for them (and tracks). 

 

But for now, i want to get the track fixed in place and wired. Then i got some scenic items to build and a city to plan. I will get to trams... around mid 2015 i would say :)

[NJHA]

It makes me think of those Shinkansen stations with traditional lines underneath it, as in Shin-Aomori for example: http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%96%B0%E9%9D%92%E6%A3%AE%E9%A7%85

That is a nice station. My plan doesn't intend to be prototypical but the photos gave me some ideas on how to deal with the crossing areas in visual terms. Thank you for the link :)

[Densha]

Here are some other stations I found with the same kind of layout:

http://www.trainfrontview.net/ssj/iiyama.htm

http://www.trainfrontview.net/ssj/jouetu.htm

http://www.trainfrontview.net/ssj/kurobe.htm

[cteno4]

Njha,

 

Great to see it coming together! Looking good!

 

Cheers

 

Jeff

[NJHA]

Here are some other stations I found with the same kind of layout:

http://www.trainfrontview.net/ssj/iiyama.htm

http://www.trainfrontview.net/ssj/jouetu.htm

http://www.trainfrontview.net/ssj/kurobe.htm

Awesome! Just the ideas i was looking for the tunnels below the station! 

Thank you! 

But... i fell in love with this: 

[macdon]

Now thats what Im talking about! Playtime! :)

 

At that point where you just laid down your tracks and use whatever items you find around the house to represent piers, station, etc. - thats the time to run trains and ideas will be pouring in. Great start! 

 

Mardon

[NJHA]

Now thats what Im talking about! Playtime! :)

 

At that point where you just laid down your tracks and use whatever items you find around the house to represent piers, station, etc. - thats the time to run trains and ideas will be pouring in. Great start! 

 

Mardon

true indeed! 

 

been working on the station this past week. Already set up some "piers" for it and a floor made of grey EVA sheet. Still not finished with the floor, and i have to decide on how am i going to do the station walls, and if i am going to put stores under the station or just plain roads and tracks. 

I will post some pictures maybe Thursday. 

Also started to assemble my "mountain", but i am deciding on how to do the tunnels in order to provide access inside of them if needed. Trying to decide on the mountain building materials. 

I can use : 

- polyurethane foam

- gypsum

- metalic grid later covered with some material.

- Blue isolation board. 

 

Ideas? 

 

Problems to solve: 

Still a few... 

Edited October 21, 2014 by NJHA

[macdon]

Hi NJHA,

 

All the mountains I have created for my various layouts are either detachable as a whole or by lifting the top to expose the tracks within for cleaning and maintenance.

 

 

After you finish with the scenery, the cut line wont be noticeable.

 

 

Mardon

 

 

[NJHA]

Thanks for the photos Mardon. It is a great way to solve the access problem, and if you say that after doing scenery the cut line isn't noticeable, even better.

[cteno4]

Njha,

 

Like Mardon said having removable pieces really helps in the long run with cleaning, fiddling with track, and grabbing derailed trains. One of the things I've heard most larger layout folk scream about is limited access to hidden track after they have painted themselves into the corner.

 

Trick is to hide the interface lines of your lift away sections cleverly (like Mardon did).

 

I've found that the extruded polystyrene foam works super well as a base material to build lift away sections out of, then apply whatever surface scenery materials you want like plaster cloth, wall patch, etc to it. Mardon makes some incredible fiberglass shells, but he has the luxury of that being his business! We have done smaller scenery sections with tunnels on the old club layout using just a plaster cloth shell and that's super light and it held up well, but these were smaller sections and we were careful with them. On the second layout we made the whole mountain from extruded foam and its super solid and has taken quite a bit of abuse. It's just a big lift off mountain piece.

 

One thing to think about lift off pieces is engineering into your lift off piece convent places to pick it up from and hold onto it going on and off the layout.

 

Cheers

 

Jeff

[ozman2009]

That's a pretty good layout design you've got there now. What about the tram line?

[NJHA]

The tram line will be there, just not now.

I will have to consider it when planning the city layout, but for now it is just that, a future plan.  

[NJHA]

Njha,

 

Like Mardon said having removable pieces really helps in the long run with cleaning, fiddling with track, and grabbing derailed trains. One of the things I've heard most larger layout folk scream about is limited access to hidden track after they have painted themselves into the corner.

 

Trick is to hide the interface lines of your lift away sections cleverly (like Mardon did).

 

I've found that the extruded polystyrene foam works super well as a base material to build lift away sections out of, then apply whatever surface scenery materials you want like plaster cloth, wall patch, etc to it. Mardon makes some incredible fiberglass shells, but he has the luxury of that being his business! We have done smaller scenery sections with tunnels on the old club layout using just a plaster cloth shell and that's super light and it held up well, but these were smaller sections and we were careful with them. On the second layout we made the whole mountain from extruded foam and its super solid and has taken quite a bit of abuse. It's just a big lift off mountain piece.

 

One thing to think about lift off pieces is engineering into your lift off piece convent places to pick it up from and hold onto it going on and off the layout.

 

Cheers

 

Jeff

Jeff, thanks for your input. I have worked a lot with extruded foam, although not in decoration, more like in hole and gap filling, and also as glue. 

It is a great material, just don't let it on your hands or clothing . 

 

I believe i have a solution for my mountain. I will do the tunnels ceiling with blue isolation board, and then put extruded foam on top of the isolation board. I have a can of foam around so i will give it a try. I will have to disassemble the tracks though, because if they get hit by foam i will have a very hard time cleaning up. 

 

I will have a full day tomorrow :)

[cteno4]

Njha,

 

I think we may have mixed terms here. The insulation foam board can be beaded foam (usually white), extruded polystyrene (usually pink or blue), or polyurethane foam (usually brown and has paper and/or foil facing on both sides.

 

Is what you are calling extruded foam the stuff you spray out of a can to fill holes? If so that not the extruded polystyrene foam I'm talking about above. The canned stuff is usually polyurethane foam. It can work well, but beware it off gases quite a bit and some have reported it doing that for a long while after using it to make layout stuff. Also probably messy and expensive to build up the bulk of your shells from the cans. Can work well as a filler though.

 

Usually folks just layer up the foam board like a contour map then smooth it out to the final shape they want. Cut your tunnel paths in the layers as you go.

 

A small nicrome wire hot knife is great for carving up the polystyrene foam insulation board, but do it in a well, ventilated area. Serrated dollar store steak knives and rough rasp files and 60 grit sandpaper works well to form the foam boards, but have the vacuum handy!

 

Cheers,

 

Jeff

[NJHA]

Jeff, indeed there was a mix on terms, mainly due to the polyurethane/polystyrene part. 

 

My idea was to setup a mountain base made out of the blue isolation foam boards (extruded polystyrene or XPS as it is also known. The white bead foam is expanded polystyrene or EPS as it is also known).

On top of the base i was planning to use the polyurethane foam (canned stuff). The polyurethane foam is great to form more natural looking surfaces (although without sharp edges) and after curing is complete it releases no more gases, becoming inert. After curing it can be painted, sanded and cut. The main problems with the polyurethane foam is that it tends to degrade under direct sunlight so it needs to be sealed, it is also not very rigid and needs a lot of time to cure (usually overnight).

[cteno4]

Njha

 

Yeah easy to talk cross terms. Yeah the can polyurethane is great stuff (hence that brand name for it) to due to fill on bits like you said to make more natural shapes out of the terraces. It does need some covering as it is soft and is uv sensitive.

 

The out gassing issue I have heard folks have is when they use A LOT of it from the cans. The way the can formulation works is designed to fill small spaces like window frame cracks, not massive areas. I've used mix your own polyurethane on boats to fill,large voids for emergency buoyancy and that works well and there is little out gassing after a couple of days and the curing is a bit longer. Also the cross linking seems more as It creates a stiffer foam than the great stuff cans now does as I've notice that stuff makes a more foam rubber like consistency, but there are like 4 different versions sold of here great stuff.

 

The polyurethane process has gotten better recently due to it being used now a lot to directly spray on framing to fill the whole building wall with foam insulation.

 

There are also some nice rotary rasps for the dremel that tear into foam for shaping, but they are not cheap... You can also make some cool shaping tools with some stiff nicrome wire and a transformer. But 60 grit sand paper works fast but is uber messy!

 

Jeff

[macdon]

Does the crushed,balled newspaper, masking tape and medical plaster cloth still work? A bit messy?

 

I see alot of those in videos but never attempted to do one using this method (yet).  Thou details you could make out of foam is excellent, but I just hate the foam dust scattering all around. My shopvac always on standby.

 

Mardon

[NJHA]

I have wondered all day on how was i going to do the mountain. 

 

First idea was using the polyurethane foam, but having worked with it on the past i remembered that it is great if you leave it alone, but if you mess with it, then it may become very ugly after curing. Also due to the uv sensitiveness it degrades with time leaving small dust particles. 

 

So i decided to review my approach and go old school. How am I going to do it then?

1- I bought some metallic net, with grid spacing at around 13mm. 

2- The net is malleable, so i can work with it to make bumps, depressions and even crevices. I will construct the mountain frame using it.

3- Then i went to a pharmacy and bought a large pack of gauze (the stuff used to cover/clean large wounds)

4- I will produce my own plaster cloth and build up on layers to create a hard shell. Plaster is easy to work with, easy to clean up and you can do all sorts of crazy stuff with it while it is wet.  

 

I think it will work out ok. 

Edited October 23, 2014 by NJHA