Hungarian Japanese Model Train Club

[IST]

Just thinking:

As it was mentioned before: I have some Unitram tracks and plates and ordered some more from keitaro few days before. What if we would play with these and build some kind of temporary tram layout just to see what can we achieve together and during this we are thinking about this 8 tracks huge modul system?

When I will have the package I will have 6 turnouts, a crossing that is enough to present interesting tram movements in a city, but we can add of coure rural elements with attaching standard Unitrack tracks if we would like. Building a city full with life I think is a huge task and would be a good warm-up for a more complex modul system.

[kvp]

What if we would play with these and build some kind of temporary tram layout just to see what can we achieve together and during this we are thinking about this 8 tracks huge modul system?

Great idea! I'll just bring some trams and buildings in a box...

 

About this 8 track standard, i think i finally figured it out how to put the shinkansen at the back. I'm not very good with unitrack, so i just used the standard 2 track superelevated tracks from the track packs. Actually 4 of them with short straights to make an 8 track 90 degrees module. This won't be visible, so i think all we need is a track geometry that works.

 

This way we can:

-have the shinkansen at the back, slightly elevated with concrete sound barrier walls

-have the normal tracks at the front, without the barriers (so kids could see the trains from the table level)

-later have the station enterance face the visitors (the shinkansen tracks are at the back of the station)

-and build everything with only a few type of tracks

 

So what do you think?

 

Edit: I just checked and there is a R480/447 curve pair, so it would be possible to turn the shinkansen tracks alone, then the 6 normal tracks together. (i just can't draw it since my anyrail version don't have these tracks) I even found a nice diorama idea for the gap between the normal and the shinkansen tracks.

Edited December 30, 2013 by kvp

[kvp]

Inner tracks (slightly higer): shinkansen

Next two: tokaido main line

Next four: keihin tohoku-yamanote

[Densha]

I haven't read all of the posts but maybe you can also use two tracks for a private operator other than JR??? Should make for a nice variation.

Edited December 30, 2013 by Densha

[kvp]

The second meeting of the new club could be considered a success. With some help from friends, we might be able to make a club layout. The 8 track format with the h-track 'module standard' is starting to take shape. (looks quite big and heavy, like a zilla after a train or two)

 

I've attached a draft of the modules in planning.

Edited January 3, 2014 by kvp

[IST]

I tried to make the curves in AnyRail, here is the result:

 

 

The inner one is the elevated Shinkansen line with its double track. As you can see there is a bigger gap between it and the other tracks. I could not make it smaller due to the size of the trackbed, so if I would use smaller straight track at the other tracks, it would cross a little bit the elevated line.

 

Here is the necessary track list to this modul according to AnyRail:

20012, N Kato Unitrack 20012. Straight 186mm. (concrete) (double track)    9
20023, N Kato Unitrack 20023. Straight 124mm. (concrete) (double track)    3
20120, N Kato Unitrack 20120. Curve radius 315mm, angle 45º    4
20132, N Kato Unitrack 20132. Curve radius 348mm, angle 45º    4
20181, N Kato Unitrack 20181. Curve radius 381mm+414mm, angle 45º (concrete) (double track) (superelevated)    2
20182L, N Kato Unitrack 20182L. Curved transition radius 381mm+414mm, angle 22.5º (left) (concrete) (double track)    2
20182R, N Kato Unitrack 20182R. Curved transition radius 381mm+414mm, angle 22.5º (right) (concrete) (double track)    2
20185, N Kato Unitrack 20185. Curve radius 447mm+480mm, angle 45º (concrete) (double track) (superelevated)    2
20186L, N Kato Unitrack 20186L. Curved transition radius 447mm+480mm, angle 22.5º (left) (concrete) (double track)    2
20186R, N Kato Unitrack 20186R. Curved transition radius 447mm+480mm, angle 22.5º (right) (concrete) (double track)    2
20544, N Kato Unitrack 20544. Curve radius 381mm+414mm, angle 45º (concrete) (double track) (superelevated) (viaduct)    3
20545L, N Kato Unitrack 20545L. Curved transition radius 381mm+414mm, angle 22.5º (left) (concrete) (double track) (viaduct)    1
20545R, N Kato Unitrack 20545R. Curved transition radius 381mm+414mm, angle 22.5º (right) (concrete) (double track) (viaduct)    1

 

On the next meeting maybe we can make some experiment with the tracks and watch how these would look like on a "standard" modul that others used. I have a complete V11 set so we could use the superelevated tracks from it, and if I remember well I have 348mm curves as well and some double tracks.

 

[Densha]

Hmmm... what radius is the inner curve? Doing Shinkansen on the narrowest curve doesn't seem like a good idea to me.

[IST]

The inner curve is 381/414, it is from the viaduct set. It should be enough.

[Densha]

I'm more worried about the appearance. It's your layout but Shinkansen do look better on wider curves. I can understand the choice to put them on the inner track though, otherwise the viaduct blocks sight.

[kvp]

The shinkansen curves and the normal curves are the same, so we couldn't really get them really larger with standard track. They are inside but with the same radius as the middle tracks of the 6 track part.

 

So what you are saying is that the kato standard 33 mm spacing between the tracks could not be used between the normal and the shinkansen lines because the elevated track is wider? Did you also calculate in the space needed for the catenary masts on the outside?

 

What are the dimensions for the two end modules with the extended spacing? Also the space required for the houses behind the lines is also a question, especially with a small strip of track or road before/behind them. (there should be reserved space for bus/tram tracks on later modules)

[Densha]

I see.

 

No, I didn't even think of that one, but that's a good point. I don't have these viaducts myself though, I've only seen them but I think it should fit. But I'll leave that to the experts.

[cteno4]

i guess the problem with having wide shinkansen curves on the inside means you will need very wide curves on the outside tracks!

 

what about doing the curves on 2 45 degree trapazoid modules so you have a donut. this is what we did to keep the radius large at the back side. but it also means the end modules are the same basic foot print foot print (a bit longer) than the straight modules. also gives the over all layout a nicer outside shape than a big box.

 

 

also modules at 1m x 0.5m need not be really beefy if they sit on something. we opted to make the modules light and thin (only 25mm thick with 5mm ply top) and they are totally sturdy and stable. we have a frame system we set up on tables or saw horses that is made from 18x32mm stock that folds up. this frame just bolts together then the modules have small bolts to hold them down onto the frame. each module has two pegs between it (one attached at each alternate side to adjacent modules) to make sure everything pops together just right and the whole thing interlocks and makes a very strudy but light weight and pretty low volume for transport system. we are looking at making screw in pvc pipe legs for the frame eventually to get rid of schlepping the plastic foldup saw horses!

 

unless you are having your base have legs attached directly to them then need not be super heavy duty. this really takes up space and gets it to where 2 people need to comfortably move them around. ours are so light anyone can pick them up super easily. have also found that vertical room is at a premium in transport.

 

for transport we ended up making coffins for each module that is just about 24mm longer and wider than each module and only 24mm extra height on what the module needs. all made from 5mm ply and little 5mmx8mm bracing strips glued and tacked into all the corners and a couple of center bottom cross braces. these have little slides along the bottom of each box that fits into the top of a box below it so they nest and we can stack 2-4 high, put a top on and a strap around it. these keep the modules ultra safe during transit and storage. actually were not all that expensive i think we spent maybe $50 for all 10 boxes.

 

cheers

 

jeff

[kvp]

The idea with the rectangular modules were that this way you can mount two facing each other with two end plates into a carryable block. (they could be also stored this way with some plastic wrapping added) The underframes would be something similar to fremo modules (just different width/length), since this is what you can get ready made. They have leg sockets on the underside, so once you screwed them together, you just add 2 legs per module +2 bonus and it's set up. (or if there are tables, you can just put them on those) On load bearing, they just have to support the weight of a kid hanging on them at the middle (while trying to climb up) or the odd grown up leaning against the assembled layout.

[cteno4]

ah ok if you want legs on them then they need to beef up! some of us in the club had some experience with ntrak 2'x4' modules very similar to the fremo and were just tired of the big schlep and weight and just wanted something to sort of lighter. worked well and for pretty minimal structure its amazingly stable.

 

jeff

[Benyo23]

Hi Everybody!

 

I read all the post, it's really interesting.

I have an idea, that may can fix the issue about the radius and the position of the Shinkansen tracks. What if the a Shinkansen track is one side of the table at the back and the other side of the table is at the front. In this case, you can put 6 tracks on the ground level and the Shinkansen tracks cross above with the enough big radius. I'm not sure it possible to build form unitrack. I think is can look great, when the suburban trains run under the Shinkansen viaduct. And it is real situation.

 

Ps: ITS, thanks for the invitation. I try to follow the posts.

Edited January 5, 2014 by Benyo23

[Benyo23]

Hi Everybody!

 

I read all the post, it's really interesting.

I have an idea, that may can fix the issue about the radius and the position of the Shinkansen tracks. What if the a Shinkansen track is one side of the table at the back and the other side of the table is at the front. In this case, you can put 6 tracks on the ground level and the Shinkansen tracks cross above with the enough big radius. I'm not sure it possible to build form unitrack. I think is can look great, when the suburban trains run under the Shinkansen viaduct. And it is real situation.

 

Ps: ITS, thanks for the invitation. I try to follow the posts.

[cteno4]

benyo,

 

welcome! hungarian contingent is growing fast! very cool to see.

 

neat idea, each gets its up front show case on one side and reduced the number of radiuses you need. we sort of do this on the jrm layout but only with one bump out on one side, but its fun as it comes out of a tunnel so trains can sort of shoot out at you then curve back into the layout.

 

jeff

Edited January 5, 2014 by cteno4

[kvp]

The original idea was to put all 8 tracks on the same viaduct, so the shinkansen tracks are only a bit higher than the normal tracks. This means the normal street traffic (cars, trams, etc.) can cross under the tracks. However pulling the normal tracks out and running them separate at the back can be good, since this would allow some space on the back module to put some storage tracks. Also there is a plan in the future for a turnoutless 6 track suburban station that would only need a few platforms and maybe some track distance widening. The elevated part should look something like this: 

[katoftw]

dont you feel the complexity of the whole project is getting out of control?

[kvp]

Not really. We are still talking about 8 loops without any turnouts. The 4 basic modules are: 2 99cm (4 pieces long) straights and 2 180 degrees curves. The general layout would be a 2 track inner loop for shinkansens and a 6 track outer loop for other trains. The station i mentioned could be another straight module with 3 island platforms (also without turnouts), while at the back we can have 1 passing track for each loop to switch out two trains. You can't really get more simple than this. Buses and trams can be added on any visitor facing module by adding a loop of bus/tram track on the ground level and using 2 bridges so they could cross under the tracks. It looks like to me that we have plans for a future expansion without making anything too complex. Control would be a simple analog speed regulator for each loop. Since there are no turnouts and the loops are not connected, we can't really mess it up. Module interconnects would be kato unitrack with fremo like head plates, because you can get them made for you, so we don't have to do any carpentry and can start with laying tracks and building the scenery.

 

By the way, does anyone know a good source of brick built arcades like the ones on the picure above? (with shops and/or solid walls) It can be plastic, paper or just printable pictures, so we can glue them to the foam under the elevated tracks. I'm also looking for good Tokyo skyboards or pictures for skyboards. (the straight module would look like this: a street, 6 normal tracks, 2 shinkansen tracks, a single row of highrise buildings, skyboard)

[IST]

Hi benyo, I am happy to see you here!

 

Your idea is great, but not now. I would like to keep our plan simple (khm...), but maybe in the future we will do some kind of similar thing on a modul. We will see. I will be happy if we can do the basic 4 modules.

[kvp]

I have some good news, I found arcades with shops. 6 arcades with shops and the top railings in a kit. It's a faller kit and costs around 14-17 euro and the height is 5 cm, so it's the same as the kato elevated track.

Of course we can use paper or a laser cut kit or anything too. For a 990 long module, two kits would be needed with 170 mm to fill (that means two 8.5 cm concrete pillars at both ends, so the curves could be run on stock elevated pillars. (at least the visible 1/3-s)

Edited January 6, 2014 by kvp

[IST]

Nice catch kvp! I like this one. What is the name or number of this kit?

Edited January 6, 2014 by IST

[kvp]

Faller 272577 Arkaden mit Geschaften.

[IST]

Thanks!

I have just check it, one of the local model train shop has it:

http://www.modellvasut-center.hu/products-page/epuletek-n/faller-272577-arkadok-uzletekkel/