kvp's layout ideas and attempts

[kvp]

Since I bought my first N scale japanese trains I've wanted to build a permanent layout for them. The only thing that is common in my plans is that they are meant to be stored in boxes or on shelfs when not in use. I only use small radius tomix finetrack aquired from all over the net, some of it as second hand items.

 

My first small layout idea is what I mostly use as a temporary layout, a small oval combined with a turning loop and its pair. I think I saw something similar somewhere and decided to build it. I've yet to make it into a permanent one. This layout uses a single feed point in the rightmost curve and all control is done by switching the 3 electric turnouts on the bottom row. The topmost turnout should be used as a spring loaded one and the yard ones are manually operated. Train length should be short with 2 short cars at most.

 

The second one is a recent idea to build narrow station and line modules that could be arranged independently and reconfigured to make different larger layouts. This could include 6 TCS sensors for full automation and point to point operation with 4 trains and 3 stations. Train length is limited to 4 standard 20 meter cars or less. It should be built in a way to be storable in a box without damaging the buildings and the scenery. The drawing contains two curves but the shape and length of the open line modules are not really decided yet.

 

Any thoughts or suggestions about my plans? I'll try to update this topic when I manage to get something done.

[ToniBabelony]

The first layout is an electronically complicated one, since you will have the plus and minus poles conflicting with each other a lot in the loops. I don't say it's impossible, since my temporary setup is quite the same in this regard.

 

The second layout might be a bit boring after a while because of limited operation possibilities. However, good use of scenery can solve this problem with spades. Things like hiding the yard and separating the scenery of both sides of the layout with a background can take care of this. Maybe even some kind of elevated difference between the single-track and three-track station can create an optical illusion of having two separate lines.

 

I'd suggest for such small layouts you incorporate at least one continuous loop or a complicated switching and/or operation process. However, as you suggested, an automated train operation system is also very interesting, if not the same as a continuous loop. You can just watch 'em go so to say.

 

Also, I'm always highly critical about long cars on very tight radii. My 'standard' is to have a maximum of 16m cars on R140 curves. Not because 16m< cars don't fit, but because it looks rather ugly. Next to it being ugly, I like to run my trains with TN couplers, just for the sake of it looking better. Anything tighter than a R140 curve and derailing is imminent. Of course, it's your layout and you can ignore all of this. :P

[macdon]

As suggested here before, you can get some ideas for small layout plans in this website:

 

http://www.cke1st.com/m_train2.htm

 

Mardon

[katoftw]

T-Trak...

[kvp]

The first layout is an electronically complicated one, since you will have the plus and minus poles conflicting with each other a lot in the loops. I don't say it's impossible, since my temporary setup is quite the same in this regard.

When the two switches for the two loops are wired together there is no conflict at all. The layout is powered from the right loop and normally run in a clockwise direction, so a train can enter the loop on the S curve, the turnouts are switched and then it can leave it through the yard side (without stopping) and enter the other loop on its straight side. The turnouts are switched again and the train can leave through the S curve (without stopping). Tomitx turnouts are power routing to both rails so they can handle the polarity switch. And because the layout is powered from one side, the two turnouts switch the polarity twice so the far loop will get the same polarity while the straight main switches direction. This can be automated with two sensors at each loops exit. The 3rd remote switch between them can be used to direct trains to the short oval where the polarity is not a problem either. This allows one tram to be parked on the short oval or one on the left loop, with another one in the yard. Continous running is possible on the two loops or on the oval. Stops can be placed at the two loops, on the oval or on the straight main. (i'm not sure what would be good) The maximal train length for this layout is the size of the yard sidings, so about two cars with a total size of 30-32 meters or less.

 

The second layout might be a bit boring after a while because of limited operation possibilities. However, good use of scenery can solve this problem with spades. Things like hiding the yard and separating the scenery of both sides of the layout with a background can take care of this.

 

Actually this is just three station modules folded together. I would like to build each station on a separate board or boards (perhaps T track as suggested above) and have some open track between them. I just used the tight radiuses becase that's what i have at the moment. For shows the layout could be unrolled into one straight layout or curled up for mimimal space at home and packed away in boxes between running. Since i use only truck mounted rapidos, every train i own can use them. For operations, later i might add a yard to somewhere along the line, but currently I only have turnouts for two stations (this is why the 3rd is just a single track stop). This allows two trains to be driven at the same time from the two end stations into the middle station, then they switch places. The 3 track terminal can then send out another train and so on, rotating them. In theory if i wire it up as intended then one train can be manually driven with the other one driven by the automation, and the system would use ATS like functionality for the manually driven train. And of course full automation would drive both trains at the same time.

 

Automation would be achived with tomix tcs sensors and a few home made circuits. (microchip pic-s and motor driver ic-s) I plan to solder/wire this up on the floor during the holidays to see if the electronics would actually work at all. :) If they do work, then i can get some wooden boards for the station modules in january. If they don't then i have to go back to the drawing board.

[IST]

I prefer the second plan, but I would build an additional track as a 3rd station to the purple track, so you can move one more trains between the stations.

If you are thinking about T-trak (and shows), I think we should talk, maybe we can build something together.

[Vato]

T-track is good idea

 

I order to myself, want to try to finish some small tram layout

[ToniBabelony]

Budapest T-Trak Club is a go? :)

[IST]

Budapest T-Trak Club is a go? :)

 

I do not know, fingers crossed maybe? :icon_scratch:

I have some unbuilt modul for experiencing, so beside my British T-trak modules we can start Japanese also.

[kvp]

Budapest T-Trak Club is a go?

 

This is a good idea! However since i use tomix tracks, i was thinking along something more like the easy tram standard (or something like that with a mostly single track mainline). This could be combined with the t-trak module height, so the two could be connected without problems. (or maybe with a transiton module) Is there any documentation on how to use tomix finetracks with the t-trak standard?

 

I prefer the second plan, but I would build an additional track as a 3rd station to the purple track, so you can move one more trains between the stations.

 

Yes, the single track station is only temporary, so if the system works, then i can replace it with a real station with more tracks. But for testing the various circuits (switch drivers, traction controllers, ats, automation logic) this should be ok.

[katoftw]

Get the right tools.  Switch to Kato.

 

Dont resist the Magyar T-Trak Club!

Edited December 20, 2013 by katoftw

[brill27mcb]

No need to switch to Kato. Tomix still offers tram railway elements that Kato does not, for example tight-radius single turnouts. Try to make a compact tram storage yard with Kato.

 

As far at T-Trak goes, you can combine Kato and Tomix:

http://www.trainweb.org/tomix/TT/TT.htm

 

They each have their strengths.

 

Rich K.

[kvp]

Finally, i made some progress on the layout automation circuits i was working on. I managed to make a tomix tcs sensor filter, that is actually just a nice name of a set/reset flip flop with a few pullup resistors and flashing leds and a tomix turnout driver, which can take a 3 state signal (0, 2.5V, 5V) and drive two turnouts. It can be set up to work with a spdt or sptt switch for manual operation or with the tcs filter above. It can drive a 3 track fork or a 2 track passing siding or in my current setup two reversing loops with two sensors in the two loops. The result is that i can drive a train through both loops in both directions with any analog controller and the turnouts will set themselves up to always provide a clear route for the train and thanks to the fully power routing turnouts, the polarity is always correct on the single track 'mainline', while allowing a non stop operation through the loops. (see the first post above for the trackplan) With the oval that is added to one of the loops, the following operations are possible with two trains:

-train 1 can go through both loops in both directions

-train 2 can go through the oval in one direction

-train 2 can go through the oval's reversing loop in the other direction and back to the oval

-trains can be switched with the oval's motorised turnout

 

I'll make a few pictures/videos as soon as there will be enough light for my phone, so hopefully tomorrow.

[kvp]

The first picture is a photo of my tram setup. On the second, the left circuit is the turnout driver and the right one is the TCS sensor filter. The turnout driver contains a pic12f510 microcontroller and an L293D motor driver ic. The filter contains a pic12f508 microcontroller, a led for feedback. 12V DC for the turnouts is provided by a wall adapter and 5V for the chips comes from a 7805 voltage regulator ic. (the youtube video upload didn't really go well, so i have to fix that)

 

 

[The Next Station Is...]

Nice to see the old Lego train controller!

[kvp]

Youtube video, still shakey but at least it displays: (i still don't know what is the problem)

 

The left circuit is a turnout driver, it can be operated by a digital signal or a spdt/sptt switch. The right one is the TCS interface circuit.

 

The next step will be the 3 track terminal station. I'll also need a working traction controller circuit for that. (for smooth start/stop) I also plan to make it work in manual and automatic mode. (with a potmeter for speed regulation and a trinary input for direction change)

Edited January 6, 2014 by kvp

[JR 500系]

Sweet! Wow how did you convert the good old 9V Lego controller to operate this? Nicely done!

[kvp]

Wow how did you convert the good old 9V Lego controller to operate this?

The lego controller is just operating the trains, so i just soldered two pins onto a lego cable cut in half and connected the track supply cable to it. 9V DC is enough for the trams and other small critters. The digital circuits are supplied by a separate 12V wall adapter with a 7805 voltage regulator ic, so the gray 3 wire cable on the picture carries 12V, gnd, 5V to the switch driver circuit. The TCS sensor circuit gets its power from the switch driver through the repurposed 3 wire computer fan cable with the layout of 5V, data, gnd. The TCS sensors use optical isolation between the track power and the digital control circuit, so the two are completly separated. You could use any analog controller and the digital control would still work.

 

Of course, my plan is to design a digital traction controller, so a digital signal could be used to control starts and stops and still have smooth acceleration/decelaration curves. The idea is to combine the functions of the tomix automatic operation unit with the more advanced tomix cab controllers while making the whole thing modular, so they could be used for almost any setup and connected to other systems or operated manually or semi automatic. (the semi automatic mode is seen here, with the train controlled by the lego controller, while the turnouts are operated automatically)

[ToniBabelony]

Awesome work!

 

The circuits seem simple enough here. It's not that I'm going to incorporate it in a planned layout of mine, since I like to run my trains in correct formations, but it might be interesting for other members to see the electronic circuit more in detail.

 

It does however look good for small modular layouts though... Hmm... Possibilities, possibilities...

[cteno4]

Fun stuff. The tomix control circuits always did look to me like they could lend themselves to modularization.

 

Jeff

[The Next Station Is...]

Nice to see the 'hacking' of the TCS sensors - can you tell the direction of travel from them or do they just signal the passing of a train?

[kvp]

The Tomix TCS sensor has 3 wires:

-left

-ground

-right

 

The left and right wires have to be pulled high with 10-20 kohm resistors and depending on the direction of the train one of the lines get pulled down to ground. This way multiple sensors can be chained together. The output could be both high = no train, one of them low = a train passing in that direction or both low = two sensors activated or using DCC. The only problem is that this output is noisy because the wheels don't always contact perfectly, so the input must be filtered to generate a steady signal. The outputs are also very low power, so they can not be used to drive anything but a TTL level digital input.

 

They look like this:

http://www.chibiegg.net/files/2009/05/tcs.png

(and a few resistors and caps here and there that were left off the drawing)

[The Next Station Is...]

Thank you very much for the info! I really like your layout and how well thought-out operation and electronics can make light work of a seemingly nightmarish layout for wiring.

[kvp]

Since IST seems to be testing a new cloaking device (i can't contact him), i decided to draw a few sketches for private use insead of a club layout.

 

The first is the board layout for my small japanese traction layout. The middle part connecting the two boards is meant to be a bridge piece supported by the two modules. For this layout i have all the trains, tracks and buildings but no baseboards.

 

The second is the track layout and mesurement checks for a small english terminal station. It's meant to be a modular shelf layout or a static display layout for a few trains.

 

The third is the drawing of a small module that could be stored on a shelf. The width is 4 times the tomix trackwidth (the distance between the middle of 5 tracks), while the length is 4 tomix standard tracks (56 cm) or 4 times the length of common japanese or british coaches. The platforms could be on the right beetween the straight pieces with the mainline leaving to the left. The platform width with tomix tracks is accidentially the same as the british prototype minimal value scaled down. For this layout i would need a tomix triple turnout, which i don't know how reliable it is.

 

Comments, thoughts and opinions are welcomed!

Edited February 6, 2014 by kvp

[IST]

(I'm here, I'm here, but had lots of work and to do's, so did not have time for my hobbies.)