E3系0番台 To Be Retired From Akita Shinkansen [15/3/2014]

[200系]

Another (partial) Shinkansen retirement coming up.

 

http://www.jreast.co.jp/akita/press/pdf/20131125-1.pdf

 

JR East has announced that the 9 E3系 R formations, still remaining on the Akita Shinkansen are to be retired at the start of the spring 2014 timetable revision.

The retirement will come almost 16 years after the opening of the Akita Shinkansen on the 22nd of March 1997, and will spell the end for the original group of E3系0番台 cars (R1~R17), with the majority of those already scrapped. It also means the end of Komachi services on the Akita Shinkansen, being replaced by Super-Komachi services using E6系 equipement.

The remaining 9 formations (R3/R4/R16/R20~R23 and R26) will be fitted with special 'arigatō Komachi' commemoration stickers, and a last ride ceremony is to be planned (though not yet announced).

 

With the retirement of E3系 formations R1~R17, the number of Shinkansen still using a GTO-VVVF propulsion package will be reduced further, with only 500系 (all 8 formations), East-I and the E2系0番台 (specific N and J1~15 formations) remaining. Though, like the E2系0番台 the E3系0番台 formations where always a mix of GTO-VVVF and IGBT-VVVF propulsion packages, being build right around the transition period for both systems.

 

footage (including the distinctive GTO sound)

 

 

In related news,

 

The fate of the late built E3系0番台 R formations (R18~R26), having been built between 2002 and 2005 seems to be rosier, with the delivery of Formation R24 to J-TRECK (the former Tōkyū Sharyō/Tōkyū Car Corporation, now owned by JR East) for renewal. While R18 has been sent to the Kawasaki Sharyō factory for a similar renewal.

How this renewal will eventually look is not yet known (as far as I know), but it is known that they will be transferred to the Yamagata Shinkansen.

 

Some footage from the interesting transport across JR East's network, of formation R24 (by EF81形, DE10形, DD55形 and more)

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYiMXxd32f4

 

While R18 went on a barge:

 

 

[miyakoji]

Great post 200kei, I think that scene of a Tokyu 7200 series moving a shinkansen is some pretty rare footage!

[JR 500系]

Thanks 200! Always the man with regards to shinkansen!

 

It's sad news actually... I reckon eventually all E3 Komachi will be taken out of service? Brings back memories with this PV: 

 

 

I like the Komachi more than the Tusbasa, for its colour and all... 

 

HHhmmm.. wondering whats with the Komachi E3 wheels while it was hauled around? They need to change the wheel and bogies from their original to that of the ones shown in the video, with green bogies? 

 

Which brings back another question, will the E3 Tsubasa have a replacement for Yamagata Shinkansen Tsubasa services? 

[macdon]

Question:  where do retired trains go? Sold/rented to other countries?  

 

Mardon 

[kvp]

Question:  where do retired trains go? Sold/rented to other countries?  

 

Mardon 

 

The cape gauge commuter trains are usually sold to smaller private or 3rd sector companies or to other asian countries. Some of the retired trains are rebuilt or recycled. However shinkansens are just usually broken up. At least that's what I've seen on several videos. Usually a few cars are preserved (or just the nose sections) but I'm not aware of any operational series 0 trainsets that are in preservation.

[bnicolas1987]

I have a question about this train.

 

How can it run on standard japanese tracks? Was it only for the delivery and after they have change all the carriages or the train can modify the weel distance like the Talgo trains?

 

Thank you for answers, maybe is it already a topic that speaks about mini shinkansen.

 

See you.

 

Nicolas

[miyakoji]

JR East regauged the tracks. A few lines in northwestern Tohoku are 1435mm conventional/shinkansen.

[Densha]

Great post 200kei, I think that scene of a Tokyu 7200 series moving a shinkansen is some pretty rare footage!

Yeah it really is! Really didn't expect something like that to ever happen even the slightest.

 

For the transport on conventional 1067mm lines they just put the mini-Shinkansen trains on temporary bogies. New E6 train sets are also being delivered in the same way as the E3 is on the way to the scrap yard, only the other direction of course. ;)

[miyakoji]

I misread bnicolas's post. Densha is correct, for transport, this train was put on temporary trucks.

[200系]

Great post 200kei,

Thanks 200! Always the man with regards to shinkansen!

 

It's my pleasure! :)

 

 

I think that scene of a Tokyu 7200 series moving a shinkansen is some pretty rare footage!

Yeah it really is! Really didn't expect something like that to ever happen even the slightest.

 

To be honest, it surprised me as well, it does look awesome though!

 

It's sad news actually... I reckon eventually all E3 Komachi will be taken out of service?

 

Unfortunately yes. R1~R17 will be scrapped, which with the exception of formations R3/R4 and R16 has already happened over the last half year or so.

While R18~R26 will be renewaled, and there after be transferred to the Yamagata Shinkansen.

 

 

will the E3 Tsubasa have a replacement for Yamagata Shinkansen Tsubasa services?

 

Won't be necessary for some years I reckon, since the E3系1000番台 (L51~L53) and E3系2000番台 (L61~L72) are a bit younger then their E3系0番台 cousins used on the Akita Shinkansen.

Only L51 and L52 might be up for replacement soon, as they where both build in 1999 (they where built to add extra capacity on the Yamagata Shinkansen when it was extended, this was also the same period the 400系 was going through renewal) while L53 was delivered as late as 2005. L61~L72 are even newer, having been built between 2008 and 2010 to replace the aging 400系 formations.

While the E3系0番台 on the Akita where built between 1995 and 1998 (R1~R17), so at 15~18 years pretty much end-of-life, no matter how sad it is to say. While R18~R26 where built between 2002 and 2005, and should therefore, after renewal, have a longer life ahead of them though now on the Yamagata Shinkansen.

 

 

Question:  where do retired trains go? Sold/rented to other countries?

The cape gauge commuter trains are usually sold to smaller private or 3rd sector companies or to other asian countries. Some of the retired trains are rebuilt or recycled.

 

The majority of them are scrapped, only a tiny fraction of end of life vehicles are sent abroad (some Kiha30/35/37 Kiha 52, 103系, 203系 and there are probably a few more), and sometimes a few cars end up in preservation.

For the Shinkansen this is even more obvious, as they are pretty much only usable on the Shinkansen network and they usually clock somewhere between 6 and 10 million km in their short lives, so when they reach the end of their life, they are scrapped. In J.N.R. times this was done at the Hamamatsu works using a dedicated section, after the split of J.N.R. the JR companies started scrapping their end of life Shinkansen at the maintenance facility the equipment was based from, for JR East this started at Sendai with the first 200系 G formations in 1997 and eventually every non renewaled formation was scrapped at Sendai (F/non-renewaled K and H formations) as well as a single E1系 in 2012 and the majority of E3系 R formations. Niigata Shinkansen depot is also used for scrapping end of use Shinkansen based there, the renewalled 200系 K formations, E1系, surplus E2系 and E4系 as well as a few E3系 R formations where scrapped there.

As the Shinkansen have a relatively short lifespan (in years, not in usage), there is usually something getting scrapped in a year... unfortunately.

 

For those interested, some info on the subject, though focusing on the 0系 during J.N.R. Times, it might be of use: :)

 

http://www.jnsforum.com/community/topic/6588-jnr-hamamatsu-works-death-of-the-0%E7%B3%BB0%E7%95%AA%E5%8F%B0-19761986/

 

 

but I'm not aware of any operational series 0 trainsets that are in preservation.

 

Indeed there aren't any, though JR West's museum (the former Modern Transportation museum) houses 4 cars that in theory could be combined to form a working, though not correct, formation, though I'm convinced that won't happen.

The Japanese philosophy regarding preservation (excluding SL) seems to be focused on static display, and I have to say I 100% support that philosophy.

 

How can it run on standard japanese tracks? Was it only for the delivery and after they have change all the carriages or the train can modify the weel distance like the Talgo trains?

 

In addition to the already mentioned, and correct, information about the temporary trucks:

The reason Mini-Shinkansen equipment can be transported on the 1067mm network by 'simply' slapping some 1067mm truck underneath, has everything to do with the nature of the Yamagata/Akita Shinkansen them self. As they are converted 1067mm lines, they still adhere to the loading gauge used on the 1067mm network as opposed to the wider loading gauge used on the normal Shinkansen.

Therefore, all equipment ever used on the mini-shinkansen (400系, E3系 and E6系) have dimensions that are close to standard 1067mm stock (2,950mm wide, 20,500mm long 4,080mm high a few mm's taller, but the same width and length as an E231系 for example) compared to the larger dimensions of a conventional Shinkansen train (intermediate car: 3,380mm wide, 25,000mm long and 4,470mm high (height of a 200系, modern series are much lower, though width and length remain the same)), this in turn means that a mini Shinkansen train can be transported by rail, where as the conventional Shinkansen cars have to be shipped by sea as they don't fit the loading gauge.

 

New E6 train sets are also being delivered in the same way as the E3 is on the way to the scrap yard, only the other direction of course. ;)

 

Maybe I'm misreading your post, but the E3系 formations where/are scrapped on site (as mentioned earlier in my post) so they won't need to be transported on the 1067mm network to head to be scrapped. Those E3系 being transported, are actually on their way to be renewalled, not scrapped.

All mini-shinkansen equipment (excluding the ones built by Kawasaki) where delivered by rail, from the 400系, to the E3系 and eventually the E6系.

[Guest keio6000]

Has anybody run into a good high quality cab view video of the Akita shinkansen, preferably in snowy condition?  I understand this does not lend itself well to amateur videos for any number of reasons, not the least of which is the direction change (that still happens, right?).  Honestly I've not kept up with the Akita shinkansen since my Densha de Go days, but wouldn't mind watching a cab view...  Youtube links anybody?

[kvp]

The Japanese philosophy regarding preservation (excluding SL) seems to be focused on static display, and I have to say I 100% support that philosophy.

 

However they never seem to save whole trains. Almost any static display can be repaired to working condition, but when all that remains is the driving trailer or the front part of the nose, then you can't do much. Also when you have a working steam locomotive, but no coaches that's still not a working train. Personally I'm for the static display and preservation of perfectly working complete trains. I know that even if I go to japan now, I can't ride on a series 0 and this is getting worse with the newer trainsets.

[Sacto1985]

I have to ask this question: With E3-0 Series R18 to R24 now assigned to the Yamagata Shinkansen, does that mean there might be a possibility that we might just soon see E3's run no longer coupled to an E2 or E5 trainset between Tokyo and Fukushima?

[Densha]

Maybe I'm misreading your post, but the E3系 formations where/are scrapped on site (as mentioned earlier in my post) so they won't need to be transported on the 1067mm network to head to be scrapped. Those E3系 being transported, are actually on their way to be renewalled, not scrapped.

All mini-shinkansen equipment (excluding the ones built by Kawasaki) where delivered by rail, from the 400系, to the E3系 and eventually the E6系.

Whoops you're right on that. I misread your post actually. :P Anyways, it's cool to see them on 1067mm lines between old freight locomotives and now even Tokyu EMU's!

[JR 500系]

Hi i just found out about this: A Sakura painted E3 Komachi?

 

That's even a Kato model for it?? http://page4.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/d147737190 

 

That makes one more painted shinkansen!  

[Guest keio6000]

However they never seem to save whole trains. Almost any static display can be repaired to working condition, but when all that remains is the driving trailer or the front part of the nose, then you can't do much. Also when you have a working steam locomotive, but no coaches that's still not a working train. Personally I'm for the static display and preservation of perfectly working complete trains. I know that even if I go to japan now, I can't ride on a series 0 and this is getting worse with the newer trainsets.

 

The newer trainsets, including things like the 500, are basically railfanish stuff.   Museum examples of end-cars for Tokyo and what really should be developed into an end-all-and-be-all shinkansen museum at Nagoya are sufficient*.

 

However, the 0 shinkansen is a special case.  It is a token of 20th century Japan like no other.  It's almost criminal not having a single running 0-series of at least 4 cars (and ideally 6 or 8) for national heritage purposes.    Or, to put it anther way, it's much more important to Japan than both the BBMF Lancaster aircraft is to britain or the extant preserved running SLs are to Japan.

 

Unfortunately, the standard cycle of preservation usually demands about a 20-30 year gap from the time that something is retired and when it is recognized as something important.  The last 0 series was retired from running in 2008, though for most Japanese it was already "out of sight" well before then.   What would be absolutely wonderful is if Japan took a proactive step and gathered or fabricated what it could to get an 0 series running as a heritage train by 2020 and the olympics.  Wouldn't that be amazing and approprite?

 

As for 200's claim that the trains should not be run- I cannot say I agree.  Trains are not aircraft. They can be run indefinitely if fueled by the passions of volunteers.  When run, they inspire and enlighten like no museum ever will be able to, and when times are lean, they can be put into storage to be reconditioned when times improve.   An 0 series in particular would have a great possibilities since it could be run either early in the morning or 'after the last train' in the evening without seriously disrupting maintenance schedules on the tokaido or sanyo shinkansen.

 

 

 

* though there are two big problems with the current Nagoya museum:  1. it has all the personality and warmth of JR Central's orange-striped spamcans - that is to say, none and 2.  the museum is run by JR Central, which presumably will not put JR East shinkansen there into a single unified museum).

[westfalen]

It is a pity Japan does not have a national railway museum like York in the U.K. rather than individual museums run by the JR companies.

 

It would have been great to see at least one of the four or six car 0 sets retained as a heritage set or joyful train because they are what the world thinks of when bullet trains are mentioned.

 

I've always thought trains should be preseved in running order if possible, it is like seeing animals stuffed and mounted in museums compare to live ones in their natural habitat.

[cteno4]

west,

 

its cost just like natural history museum vs a zoo. 

 

museums world has been hard the last decade. less and less gov support and more museums out there looking for funding. plus modern culture is not into focusing on content as much like museums tend to. Museums have tried to chase popular culture but that only leads to more fragmented and fleeting efforts. Museums keep saying they need to figure out a new connection to their visitors as they are loosing them, especially on the longer view, but the have been unwilling to go back to the basics and either keep what they have been doing or chase ever faster for the bleeding edge which tends to just make them bleed.

 

I agree the 0 is probably the train to save as a full consist for posterity as it represents the beginning. 

 

jeff

[200系]

Seems this thread has taken a bit of turn the last few days.

 

As for 200's claim that the trains should not be run- I cannot say I agree.

 

Could you please point out to me where I said I'm against dynamic preservation? thank you...

 

 

However, the 0 shinkansen is a special case.  It is a token of 20th century Japan like no other.

 

Yes, and that's why there are 25, 0系 cars preserved all around Western Japan. While this is obviously only a tiny fraction of the 3216 cars build, it still compares favorably to other retired Shinkansen series:

 

-200系: 700 cars built -> 5 cars preserved (only 4 accessible for the public though)

-100系: 1056 cars built -> 5 cars preserved

-300系: 1120 cars built -> 2 cars preserved (one of them might be in jeopardy, but that's another topic)

-400系: 84 cars built -> 1 car preserved

-E1系: 72 cars built -> No confirmation yet if the only surviving car will be preserved.

 

 

It's almost criminal not having a single running 0-series of at least 4 cars (and ideally 6 or 8)

 

If there had to a preserved formation, it should have been a formation that would be representable for both the Tōkaidō and the Sanyō Shinkansen.

In that case a 4 car Q formation, or 6 car R formation would be out of the question, considering those where JR West formations only used on the Sanyō Shinkansen.

An 8 car 0系 formation never existed, that would limit us to 12 (N/K/S/H or S/Sk) formations or 16 car formations (N/Nh/Y/Yk), and while one of the original N/K/S or H formations might be tempting for historical reasons, those where all extended to 16 car formations starting in 1970 6 years before the opening of the full Sanyō Shinkansen, so they never traveled to Hakata as 12 car formations.

An (J.N.R./JR Tōkai) S/Sk formation could work, but they only served from 1984 till 1988/1990 when they where lengthened to 16 car Y/Yk formations.

So that leaves us with the 16 car option, preferably an N/Nh formation seeing as they where used for the longest period on both Shinkansen (1976-1994, JR West kept one formation for charter work till 2000, though this formation, Nh32, was only used on the Sanyō Shinkansen). This would've been my preferred outcome (not surprising since they are my favorite formations), but that would also have been almost impossible to keep in running order; 400m of train to store, 64 traction motors to maintain, 1407 seats to fill on special runs, don't think that would've been feasible in the long run.

 

Trains are not aircraft. They can be run indefinitely if fueled by the passions of volunteers.

 

Yes, but not all aircraft have cycle/hour limits either, this generally applies to pressurized aircraft and/or aircraft sustaining high g-loads (read fighters/fighter jets), unpressurized aircraft can fly almost indefinitely with the right amount of care as well, see the DC-3/C-47 for example.

 

However that aside, A shinkansen isn't an ordinary train either, and I venture to guess a running 0系 would be a lot more work then a similar vintage 101/103系 for example, of which there are no full sets preserved either while they played an important role in Japanese railroad history.

 

Another problem with getting those Shinkansen to run is the fact that 15 out of the 25 preserved cars are of the 0系0番台 variety, with almost all of them part of production batch 1-12.

Batch 1-12 (and the entire 0番台, though 1-12 where the most pronounced in this regard), built between 1964 and late 1971 where all, on account of them being the very first pressure sealed high speed trains in the world, built to different standards. This resulted in them aging much faster then their later sisters, and especially in them developing serious metal fatigue to the point where they pressure couldn't be retained anymore due to leaking. This prompted J.N.R. to scrap the earliest batches over a ~10/12 year period (first scrapped in 1977 last between 1987~1989), and develop the 0系1000番台 with the first 1000番台 delivered in 1976. the 1000番台 did remedy this problem by using thicker steel, which worked seeing as a 1000番台 car holds the age record for the 0系 (at 28 years of service).

A selection of 0系0番台 batches 13~21 where treated to a life extension program after the fall of J.N.R and managed to survive until the mid/late 1990's, the last being retired in 2000 with half of the 21形 preserved in Japan while the 22形 went to the Railway museum in York.

So, long story short, most of the surviving 0系 cars where pretty much end of life when preserved (even though they might still look amazing cosmetically), so I'd guess getting them up and running again, not to mention having them certified for 210km/h again would be a big hassle.

 

 

Unfortunately, the standard cycle of preservation usually demands about a 20-30 year gap from the time that something is retired and when it is recognized as something important.  The last 0 series was retired from running in 2008, though for most Japanese it was already "out of sight" well before then.   What would be absolutely wonderful is if Japan took a proactive step and gathered or fabricated what it could to get an 0 series running as a heritage train by 2020 and the olympics.  Wouldn't that be amazing and approprite?

 

The 0系 was considered important well before that point. The first 0系 cars to be preserved where pre-production cars 21-1, 16-1, 35-1 and 22-1 way back in 1977 at the Modern Transportation Museum in Ōsaka. The attention bestowed upon her at both the September 1999 Tōkaidō Shinkansen retirement, and the eventual final run on 14-12-2008 suggest she's already recognized. The same holds true for the preserved examples, I've never seen a train displayed with so much honor and pride as 21-2 at the Saitama Railway Museum.

 

So in short, yes I would personally love to see a running 0系 formation, trust me it's one of my regrets that I've never got to experience them, but Westfalen touched unknowingly on my original point:

 

...because they are what the world thinks of when bullet trains are mentioned.

 

And that's where my original point comes in.

 

Weather we like it or not we are still looking in from the outside, no matter how passionate we are about Japanes trains. The 0系 Isn't property of the world, It's Japanese, It's an integral part of the Japanese railway scene was built/designed/thought of by Japanese nationals, ran It's entire life in Japan and helped change the way the Japanese society moved and indeed developed. So no matter how much influence her legacy had on railway technology world-wide, no matter the impact she had, she remains Japanese. And from my point of view that means she's property of the Japanese people, and it's up to them how to best preserve that legacy, even if we, or I, do not entirely agree with the way it is done.

 

And that's why I still stand behind my original statement.

 

-Sander

 

disclaimer, my response isn't meant as an attack on the posters quoted.

[bikkuri bahn]

Re. running preserved trainsets on shinkansen.  One thing to keep in mind is the big island JR's are more than in other nations for-profit institutions, rather than "national railways" as we know them in Europe- any non-revenue operations are going to be scruntinized in terms of cost benefit.  Especially on a high performance, high capacity system like the shinkansen, safety is priority NO. 1-  the margins for error are very tight, you are not going to have "volunteers" running anything (including on-board passenger services), unless you are going to have full-time railway employees taking time off to work on a preservation run.  On the other hand, the zairaisen have the pathings and leeway for running preserved trains, and the services have the benefit of being region specific- such as the Gunma Destination Campaign that JR East ran with their restored C61- no doubt funded in part by the prefecture.

[Guest keio6000]

"Could you please point out to me where I said I'm against dynamic preservation? thank you..."

 

Maybe i quoted the wrong person.  if so i apologize.  Im not going to go back and look it up now; but it doesnt matter.

 

"Yes, and that's why there are 25, 0系 cars preserved all around Western Japan"

 

Right.  it's also the only one that really matters in a non-railfan sort of way.

 

"f there had to a preserved formation, it should have been a formation that would be representable for both the Tōkaidō and the Sanyō Shinkansen."

 

= railfan details.  sure, it's better to have an accurate formation rather than a non-accurate one, but the key point is to have any shinkansen which the public can identify as "the first shinkansen type" running as a living museum.  the railfans can fight over the details and sort the best arrangement. 

 

"Yes, but not all aircraft have cycle/hour limits either, this generally applies to pressurized aircraft and/or aircraft sustaining high g-loads (read fighters/fighter jets), unpressurized aircraft can fly almost indefinitely with the right amount of care as well, see the DC-3/C-47 for example."

 

FYI I am deeply involved personally with the conservation of and flying historic aircraft.  I own the full stack of pilot certificates and personally own a ww2 trainer type aircraft (BT-13, though currently not flying) and have worked for many years as a volunteer conservator of historic aircraft at a world-class facility (IWM Duxford / TFC)  I'm not sure what you were trying to prove by the above statement other than showing off a little knowledge here since it's largely irrelevant, but my point was that trains are very much UNLIKE aircraft.  Trains really can be kept running indefinitely.  Sure, some take more or less work than others, but that's, umm, pretty obvious.  

 

"Weather we like it or not we are still looking in from the outside, no matter how passionate we are about Japanes trains. The 0系 Isn't property of the world, It's Japanese, It's an integral part of the Japanese railway scene was built/designed/thought of by Japanese nationals, ran It's entire life in Japan and helped change the way the Japanese society moved and indeed developed. So no matter how much influence her legacy had on railway technology world-wide, no matter the impact she had, she remains Japanese. And from my point of view that means she's property of the Japanese people, and it's up to them how to best preserve that legacy, even if we, or I, do not entirely agree with the way it is done"

 

and here i have to disagree strongly.    was it also your opinion that the bamiyan buddhas were the property of the afghan people, and therefore if at one point in their history they chose to have at them with RPGs that's their business?   we as outsiders have a responsibility to respectfully give our suggestions and opinions on things that might not be obvious from an internal perspective at any given time.  ultimately the japanese will decide, of course, but this doesn't mean that we can't give input and let our voices be known.    and i can damn well say if i feel like it that it would be a great idea if there were a running 0-series set.  There have been countless examples over the years of external pressures convincing other states and actors to preserve things that were at one point slated for destruction in the name of progress and in many cases such preservations have even been spearheaded by outsiders who can act in ways that locals for a variety of reasons cannot.  A good example is in the preservation of religious, political, or cultural sites and objects where if a local suggested preserving it for "historical" reasons, it might be seen as being "political".  For example, during the ex-Soviet period I was closely involved in making sure that a particular set of historic aircraft were not scrapped even though at that point there was, to put it mildly, no love for the USSR and salaries were low and so the scrap metal was valuable.  Had a local done this, he would have been accused of being a pro-communist reactionary.  Now, nearly 20 years on, there is talk about finally restoring the aircraft for museum purposes -  something that would have been impossible if they had been turned into pots and pans.  The "talk" comes from the people of the country who now view the objects more apolitically.

 

Furthermore, Japan as a country is in many ways deeply approval-seeking and so carefully considers foreign opinion.  This is to its immense credit.   If only more countries had the integrity to accept outside views and stopped with the regressive provincalism of "it's our country we'll do what we please." 

 

no offense intended.

[Guest keio6000]

Re. running preserved trainsets on shinkansen.  One thing to keep in mind is the big island JR's are more than in other nations for-profit institutions, rather than "national railways" as we know them in Europe- any non-revenue operations are going to be scruntinized in terms of cost benefit.  Especially on a high performance, high capacity system like the shinkansen, safety is priority NO. 1-  the margins for error are very tight, you are not going to have "volunteers" running anything (including on-board passenger services), unless you are going to have full-time railway employees taking time off to work on a preservation run.  On the other hand, the zairaisen have the pathings and leeway for running preserved trains, and the services have the benefit of being region specific- such as the Gunma Destination Campaign that JR East ran with their restored C61- no doubt funded in part by the prefecture.

 

"Cost-benefit" is a nonsensical concept when it comes to historic and educational objects.  You cannot calculate the discount rate for the externalities gained (or lost) by, say, children 200 years from now being able to see a running shinkansen.

 

That said, the idea that Japanese companies are run as profit-maximizing entities is a bit of a comedy.  Japanese companies - or at least Japanese companies before the soulless revenue extractors like Softbank moved in -  have long had a more complex and nuanced role in Japanese society. 

 

A running preserved shinkansen would almost obviously have to be a public-private partnership, with the government or other non-profit providing some funds (as it might for a museum) while the actual operation being run in concert with and under the guidance of, say, JR Central.    This is no different than how any number of historic locomotives and trains criss-cross britain.  "cost-benefit" to the soulless, banker-based rail operating company that has the short term contract to run the rails is never and cannot be a consideration.

 

That said, it'd not out of the realm of possibility that tickets for a restored shinkansen could play a significant role in offsetting the costs incurred.

Edited December 8, 2013 by keio6000

[miyakoji]

keio, not that I don't agree with, I do, but I think bikkuri put it just as the companies think of it.  Realistically, the only place shinkansen stock can run is on the shinkansen lines, and it's just not worth it to the companies to work these into the schedule.  I agree with you completely that the zero series is emblematic, perhaps more than anything else, even to non-railfans, of post-war Japan, and a working set is historically important.  But it's not worth it (literally, in yen) to the operators to make that a reality.  I also agree with your point that preservation should happen sooner rather than 30 years (or longer) after the fact.  By that point it's often too late.

[200系]

Maybe i quoted the wrong person.  if so i apologize.  Im not going to go back and look it up now; but it doesnt matter.

 

 

It does matter to me, I personally don't like it when people attribute things I never said to me, especially when I never stated my opinion on dynamic preservation.

I did say I supported the Japanese philosophy of static preservation of EMU/Shinkansen, that doesn't mean I wouldn't support restoring them to working condition, I just don't see it happening.

 

Anyway, apologies accepted I guess...

 

Right.  it's also the only one that really matters in a non-railfan sort of way.

 

I disagree here, while not on the same level as the 0系 I'd argue the 200系 and to a lesser extend the 500系 played their role in regional Japanese history.

 

-The 200系 introduced the Shinkansen to the North-Eastern part of Japan, and played an important role in the development of the Kantō and Tōhoku area as well as the city of Niigata.

 The amount of coverage the retirement early this year received, by JR East as well as the regional and national TV networks, provides ample clues about her importance for the region at least.

 

-The 500系, while not as historic as either the 0系 or 200系, though it did introduce 300km/h services in Japan (though that's just railfan stuff I guess). It did however capture the imagination of the public

 big time, so much that JR West still runs a promotional campaign based entirely around the 500系, not bad for a train that was introduced 16 years ago.

 

 

= railfan details.  sure, it's better to have an accurate formation rather than a non-accurate one, but the key point is to have any shinkansen which the public can identify as "the first shinkansen type" running as a living museum.  the railfans can fight over the details and sort the best arrangement.

 

There is nothing to sort out. With the cars available it's impossible to form a historically accurate or even plausible formation. And since there aren't any 0系 cars left in storage, there's no way to change this.

 

"running as a living museum."

 

And I think this is where we seem to be at odds, you (as is my interpretation) want to allow people/yourself the opportunity to experience a part of history.

While I personally prefer to have the option to tell the entire story, which in my view can be best done through static preservation. The 0系 exhibit at the Saitama Railway museum is a good example of this (though not detailed enough in my view, but that just me). Preservation like this allows future generations just as much insight into the importance of the 0系 as a driving set would, possibly even more so.

 

I'm not sure what you were trying to prove by the above statement other than showing off a little knowledge here since it's largely irrelevant

 

At one hand it was a response to you're own assertion that trains and aircraft are different, and that trains can run indefinitely in theory, unlike aircraft.

I simply found this example a bit of an oversimplification regarding both the Shinkansen and aviation, so I responded with an example I guessed you'd be familiar with, to point out an exception to the statement you made, which leads me to the second point.

I provided some information about the earliest 0系 batches, and the reason for their early retirement, to point out that the 0系 does have some of the same elements that limit it's useful life in the same way some aircraft do. that was the point I tried to make, might have done it a bit more eloquently, but then English isn't my native language.

 

 

FYI I am deeply involved personally with the conservation of and flying historic aircraft...

 

great, and I mean that in a non sarcastic way, but how was I supposed to get that from a single aviation reference?

 

 

was it also your opinion that the bamiyan buddhas were the property of the afghan people, and therefore if at one point in their history they chose to have at them with RPGs that's their business?

 

I really hope that was a rhetorical question... of course I wasn't! But I think there is a bit of a difference (you don't say) between a religious theocracy blowing up two ancient, 1500 year old statues based on their interpretation of a religion, and Japan preserving 26 0系 cars or sections (25 in Japan) of which 10 are showcased at the nations prime railway museums (2 at the Saitama Railway museum (JR East), 4 at the JR Tōkai museum and 5 at the new JR West museum) one is even preserved outside the country for goodness sake! So I don't think the Japanese have failed to preserve their own history as bad as the Taliban did, or the former communist block post USSR, they just haven't preserved it the way you want them to.

 

 

and i can damn well say if i feel like it that it would be a great idea if there were a running 0-series set.

 

Never suggested you couldn't... Just like I'm free to express why I think it's a bad idea...

 

 

I also agree with your point that preservation should happen sooner rather than 30 years (or longer) after the fact.  By that point it's often too late.

 

The best moment would have been 5 years ago, When JR West still had 3 (W)R formations repainted in J.N.R. colors at their disposal (R61, R67 and R68).

One of those formations would've been perfect for such a venture, these formations had been well taken care of, where up to date in terms of ATC (they had ATC1-D onboard, allowing them to make use of the new digital ATC protocol of the Sanyō Shinkansen, as opposed to the other preserved units which still have analog ATC1-B or even ATC1-A equipment) and there still where enough retired cars around to serve as hypothetical part donor.

However JR West chose (probably they didn't even consider) not to be preserve one of those formations, and though two cars where preserved (the 21形 of R61, 21-7008 at the Kawasaki Plant, and the 22形 of R68, 22-7007 at Suita) the rest where quickly scrapped. And even when JR West still had formation Q3 at their disposal some time ago, they decided to only restore the 22形, 22-1047 and scrap the rest.

That for me says enough about the prospect of a restored 0系 formation, sorry to say.

 

Anyway, I think I've made my position rather clear, so I guess I call it a day, I doubt we'll get closer to each other, and we are running wildly off topic (not that there's anything new to report).

So I guess I'll see what becomes of this thread...

 

-Sander

[Guest keio6000]

"200 and 500"

 

as much as we may like it as railfans, the 500 was a short lived technological wizz-bang designed by a german.  the 0-series shinkansen probably rates somewhere between the Sanshu no Jingi and white rice in terms of things that are quintessentially part of japan's history and self-identity--still the best symbol of the postwar phoenix.

 

"And I think this is where we seem to be at odds, you (as is my interpretation) want to allow people/yourself the opportunity to experience a part of history.

While I personally prefer to have the option to tell the entire story, which in my view can be best done through static preservation. The 0系 exhibit at the Saitama Railway museum is a good example of this (though not detailed enough in my view, but that just me). Preservation like this allows future generations just as much insight into the importance of the 0系 as a driving set would, possibly even more so."

 

It's not an either/or.  There are plenty of static exhibits.

 

"I really hope that was a rhetorical question."

 

not rhetorical, but it was an (of course) an extreme example used to evidence my point - that outside views and influence should matter.

 

"Never suggested you couldn't... Just like I'm free to express why I think it's a bad idea..."

 

I still don't get why it's a in your view 'bad idea.' Again, not an either/or. 

 

"The best moment would have been 5 years ago, When JR West still had 3 (W)R formations repainted in J.N.R. colors at their disposal (R61, R67 and R68).

One of those formations would've been perfect for such a venture, these formations had been well taken care of, where up to date in terms of ATC (they had ATC1-D onboard, allowing them to make use of the new digital ATC protocol of the Sanyō Shinkansen, as opposed to the other preserved units which still have analog ATC1-B or even ATC1-A equipment) and there still where enough retired cars around to serve as hypothetical part donor."

 

probably well and true.  and almost certainly this will be regretted.